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(Search pattern:fakes, since Wed, Mar 30, 2011, 10:41:13)

‘Amber’ beads revealed as prehistoric fakes
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Posted by: Karlis Post Reply
05/02/2019, 19:50:59

Amber beads made in the second and third millennia BCE have been found to be fakes – revealing that the practice of passing off dodgy imitations to unsuspecting customers stretches back at least 5,000 years.

https://cosmosmagazine.com/geoscience/amber-beads-revealed-as-prehistoric-fakes

fakeamber_x.jpg (208.9 KB)  


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Greetings from the far side of bead collecting!
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Posted by: bob Post Reply
04/05/2019, 06:02:50

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Modified by Admin at Fri, Apr 05, 2019, 20:46:02

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Probably Pointless
Re: Greetings from the far side of bead collecting! -- bob Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
04/19/2019, 15:23:58

I suppose it is futile to criticize this article, as resulting from outdated ideas.

However, I was surprised to see the author has harvested a photo from the Michaan's Auctions catalogue—Naomi Lindstrom Collection, that was perhaps the most impressive opportunity to acquire collector beads since the previous decade or longer.

Here's a shot of the catalogue page, followed by the necklace I made for Ms Lindstrom using these same beads. Due to manipulations committed by someone who claimed to be able to sell these beads, if the necklace could be dismantled, it no longer exists as such. (And that person did not sell a single bead from the group—which was how they came to be offered one by one, or in small groups). JDA.

nl_michaans_catalogue_zi.jpg (78.4 KB)  1_bcn_nl_zi_nk_09.jpg (82.3 KB)  


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Re: Probably Pointless
Re: Probably Pointless -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: AnneLFG Post Reply
04/24/2019, 01:24:17

At least he gave Credit to Naomi Lindstrom Collection under the Photo from the Auction Catalog. I have seen information online and on your FaceBook page about your help with appraising and organizing this Auction, and also mentions of it here and there. To have amassed such a collection on a Flight Attendant's salary is impressive, the scope of which looked Vast for sure! Also I could see that she had a certain stringing style and actually wore and enjoyed her wonderful beads which is all the better.

My friend has a Bhutanese friend, whose family have Dzi heirloom beads. I'm hoping for some photos and information from her and will share it when and if it comes to be.

My friend went on a religious Trek to Tibet and I told him the little I knew about Dzi beads, and warned him of the fakes they artificially age and machine (?) to produce those surface crescent marks - often found on Old glass and some Old stone. He sent photos of the prominent bead stalls in the market place, and bead hawkers in the street selling, with crowds of onlookers. He did buy a new 9 eyed Dzi bead, and was told that even the new beads are Dzi beads so long as they are chalcedony and made in the Old way. He carried his bead on his Kalish Kora, which is supposed to "charge" it.

It is funny to see a Travel Brochure so focused on a bead, and the content is pretty amusing, for sure! No doubt every tourist will have a bead after visiting Bhutan, which is a good thing, so long as they didn't overpay.

EDIT: The Bhutan Dzi bead Travel brochure is Cut and Pasted straight off the internet from multiple sources, with a few changes Z yo Dzi, etc. Not surprised.

Bead lover, collector since Age 15, semi-retired had wholesale/retail bead, folk art, tribal art store Lost and Found Gallery for 25 yrs. in DT Greensboro, NC

Modified by AnneLFG at Wed, Apr 24, 2019, 09:19:04

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Yes.
Re: Re: Just so you know, I made necklaces for Naomi Lindstrom for some thirty-five years. -- barbcrafter Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
04/25/2019, 13:18:51

I made most or all of them. A curious thing about the Strange Inheritance episode is that there is virtually no mention of my ongoing collaborations with Naomi. I am introduced into the story as a "bead expert" who "helped the family to determine values." I was surprised when I first viewed the program, since I was in-contact with the producers, gave them most of the archival photos used (and many not used)—and my participation in Naomi's life was well understood.

They also did not use a short segment in which I showed Jamie Colby how to tie knots between beads, and briefly discussed authenticity versus faking.

JDA.



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re: yes
Re: Yes. -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: barbcrafter Post Reply
04/25/2019, 15:54:43

Authenticity versus faking often seems boring to people until they fall victim to the fakes. It is possible they thought that section was too technical. My husband would have loved your demonstration of knotting. He loves learning about that and has gotten me into learning it, too.



Modified by barbcrafter at Thu, Apr 25, 2019, 19:02:16

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ID stone beads, help please . Bead 1
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Posted by: karavanserai Post Reply
11/25/2018, 11:22:08

I love stone beads, but am a novice for anything that is out of the oridinary.
I need help for the following 3 sets of beads.

The first one came along with ancient amazonite sourced in Morocco. I originally mounted it along with amazonite, but took it out once I got set 2 of new beads and saw the similarity.

amazonite_and_....jpg (36.7 KB)  150_1.jpg (61.7 KB)  
martine

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Re: ID
Re: ID stone beads, help please . Bead 1 -- karavanserai Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
12/23/2018, 14:02:22

I suspect these are what is routinely called "sea sediment jasper."

This is a recent Chinese product that has evolved out of the fake-turquoise industry.

As mentioned a few years ago by me, Chinese manufacturers can now take different materials and treat them to become very hard. So hard they seem very stone-like. They even do this to soft non-precious coral (as I demonstrated).

The turquoise fakes are composed from magnesite and reconstructed magnesite, that has been color-enhanced (often just dyed), and hardened. These undergo additional treatments to make them more turquoise-like—including creating "veins" or "matrix," and crackling the material to (supposedly) make the beads seem "old."

In the case of "sea sediment jasper" (as near as I can tell), I believe they are taking reconstructed stone, crushing it to large and small fragments, ** and then reconstructing these pieces by placing them into a melange of reconstructive medium. Then (or somewhere in the process) the resulting material is colored (if it isn't yet, or if additional colors are desired) and it's hardened. Whereupon it has to be exploited like any mineral—being roughed-out, shaped, polished, and drilled. This is something the Chinese excel at performing in mass quantities.

Essentially, this is a strategy someone might come up with in oder to make an imitation of brecciated jasper. So, one could say that "sea sediment jasper" is FAKE BRECCIATED JASPER, that is artificially brecciated, from highly manipulated reconstructed mineral compositions.

The beads seen in replies also look like the "SSJ" beads from China, that are routinely available online. Just a few years ago, we had some dialogues about the fact that Chinese beads are now making their way into West African constructions. This is just another example.

Jamey



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Amber vs. Polystyrene "Lemon Amber"
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Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
12/06/2018, 09:52:59

Here's a direct comparison of natural amber vs. high impact polystyrene (HIPS) "lemon amber". Note that HIPS beads can show surface wear, dirt and pitting that makes them look very "natural". In this case the color is a dead give-away. I haven't seen any HIPS beads (yet) that were colored to look more like natural amber, but I suppose they are out there.

Another property that can be confusing is that HIPS is a fairly low density plastic so it may "feel" like real amber. Amber has a density of around 1.05 - 1.10 g/cc, and HIPS, 1.03 - 1.06. The HIPS beads will therefore "pass" the salt water float test used to confirm real amber.

By contrast, other plastics used to imitate amber are higher in density, will "feel heavier" and also sink in the salt water test.

Generic phenolic resins, e.g.Bakelite: 1.36 g/cc
Celluloid: 1.4
polyester: 1.38
Galalith (casein): 1.35
acrylic: 1.17 - 1.20

Note that the density of plastics can vary a bit, due to the very wide variation in formulations that may included additives, dyes, etc., so these values are all approximate. Theoretically, you might, for example, find an acrylic bead that is low enough in density that it will pass the salt water float test.

RFAmberHIPSDec2018.jpg (34.2 KB)  


Modified by Rosanna at Thu, Dec 06, 2018, 10:09:45

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Re: Amber vs. Polystyrene "Lemon Amber"
Re: Amber vs. Polystyrene "Lemon Amber" -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: odan Post Reply
12/06/2018, 11:09:01

Yo Rosanna...here's some photos of my real Amber with some fakes tossed in.
I think the colors on these are very close to real.....
Just thought I'd post some for your ideas.

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Indo Pacific ID question
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Posted by: hans Post Reply
11/05/2018, 08:25:08

This small figure is collected 10 years ago on East Java. The face is hard to seen in the picture. One arm is damaged.
Lenght x height = 25,45 x 11,32 mm. Perforation is conical 2,28 - 3,64 mm.
It has the structure and colour of Indo Pacific glass and it is not of modern fabrication. The glass is folded and manipulated with a pointed tool. In the same batch were small glass elephants (piu type), snakes and a damaged bird, all in colors seen also by Indo Pacific beads.
Are these kind of objects already documented? In SE Asia for instance?
Love to hear more on the subject.

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Thx Jamey
Re: Re: ID Question -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: hans Post Reply
11/11/2018, 09:12:59

Hi Jamey, thank you. There is a lot of resemblance. Hope to find more info in the future.



Modified by hans at Sun, Nov 11, 2018, 09:35:00

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P.S.
Re: Thx Jamey -- hans Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
11/24/2018, 05:17:12

Re-reading your initial post today, I recall the following.

In 2010 I met Walt Seifried at the Bead Conference in Borneo. The first evening, he showed me the beads he had brought with him from Thailand/SE Asia—and these included some amazing and small sculptural beads. They were the same colors as Indo-Pacific beads, and Walt's source was adamant that they were "ancient." I was not so sure. Whenever something entirely different suddenly appears for the first time, it is important to be skeptical (as I have remarked many times)—even when the artifacts are impressive.

Sometime later, Walt told me he came to know that these delicate and well-rendered beads were recent fakes. Disappointing, but not uncommon.

I will try to locate my photos, though I suspect they are on a back-up drive by now.

Jamey



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glass figures genuine or fakes?
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Posted by: Nak_gr Post Reply
10/06/2018, 09:32:50

please could u have a look those glass beaded figures? from tang dynasty
the pic comes from an auction on eBay

20181006_184118-512x315.jpg (49.6 KB)  


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My weirdest bead
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Posted by: si Post Reply
09/17/2018, 22:32:35

I found this at the 25th St Flea, too. It was in a bowl of odds and ends, and I got it along with an obviously modern carnelian intaglio bead for a few bucks. I have no idea what this is and I've not been able to find anything online that can help. Here are two views of either side of the "face":

IMG_2275.JPG (210.1 KB)  IMG_2273.JPG (204.8 KB)  


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Re: Re: Your Weird Bead
Re: Re: Your Weird Bead -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: si Post Reply
09/23/2018, 23:05:43

Thanks, Jamey. Yes, the "eyes" are the hole - I'm not sure what the carving is supposed to be! Can you tell me what says "wheel cut" to you? I'm just trying to learn what to look for.

Considering I found it with other new "old" beads I'm not surprised, but usually I can tell what kind of "old" bead the new bead is supposed to be, and this one just seems like an oddball.



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Re: Wheel-Cutting
Re: Re: Re: Your Weird Bead -- si Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
09/24/2018, 10:26:20

Imagine a device that is like a rotating drill. It could be turned by hand, via a belt or bow, manually, with a foot treadle, or an engine.

But, instead of having a drill-bit, it has a head that is much wider than its length, and is therefore disk-like. It is a small "wheel." A typical shape for a cutting-wheel is a convex disk, convex on both sides so the the edge comes to a point and is sharp. This cutting wheel can be used in two different ways.

The larger surface, perpendicular to the rotary handle can be used to carve-out round depressions. (In this aspect it is like "drilling"—except the cut is wide and shallow.)

The edge can be used to carve-out lines—that are consequently "V"-shaped. Where a v-shaped line is abraded, the cut typically begins and ends with a tapering of the cut surface (because of the interface between a convex surface impacting a flat or convex surface). So, these cuts are "boat-shaped." They are lines with tapered or ragged ends.

Let's say that the edge of the disk does not come to a point, but is flat around the circumference. Then, the lines that are abraded would be square-sided (not v-shaped). but the ends of these lines would tend to taper or be ragged.

THIS is what we see when we examine a wheel-cut artifact.

In antiquity, when many intaglio seals were made (in the fashion of Indians, Persians, Greeks, and Romans), the typical design was rendered by cutting round depressions of various sizes, to compose the image. And then sliding cuts were made to connect these circles. The rotary action of this work is very apparent, when we view authentic ancient seals (or artifacts made in this way).

Seals were made to provide beautiful detailed images or scenes. An impression from such a seal is artistically impressive. That is because the makers tested and retested their progress as they went along—refining and detailing whatever the subjects may be.

In contradistinction, recent fakers generally do not use the round rotary abrasion, but instead use the edge of their appliances. They make a stab at creating an images by a series of line cuts. But the results of this work are VERY inauthentic-looking. And, in fact, when we take an impression of the image (using clay or any similar soft material), we will find that the image is CRUDE, and easily seen to be inauthentic.

Allow me to repeat: I am not an expert on seals. My area is beads. But since many seals ARE beads, and because I have some knowledge of lapidary practices, I can make the above generalizations. This does not mean that all ancient seals were never wheel-cut using the edge. It does not mean that all ancient seals are beautifully-rendered. It does not mean that there are no "good fakes"—that were appropriately made. (In fact, in the 19th C. excellent reproductions of seals were manufactured—which is a story unto itself.)

What I am providing are GUIDELINES that are sound generalizations. We should expect exceptions. We should expect ancient seals that were poorly or differently-made. We should expect new fake seals that have been well-made, by someone who understands the technology, and is willing to expend the time to reproduce it. And in the arena of beadmaking, we should expect all of these variables may or will be present in beads. Particularly in the area of ancient-bead-faking.

I hope this is helpful. Jamey



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flea find: some Guerrero(?) beads
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Posted by: si Post Reply
09/17/2018, 22:10:02

At the 25th St flea, found a guy with bags and bags of these greenstone beads, among other precolumbian artifacts. He said he acquired them from estate collections. I don't know if they're genuinely precolumbian or if they may have been made in the 20th century when the collector market got hot. I think they're quite lovely either way. Made a quick necklace out of them:

IMG_2262small.jpg (247.1 KB)  


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how can you tell?
Re: They look OK to me. -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: si Post Reply
09/23/2018, 23:07:25



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Re: How One Can Tell
Re: how can you tell? -- si Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
09/24/2018, 00:30:11

It is certainly possible to make convincing imitations of Méxican green-stone beads—because they tend to be crude constructions. But here are two points to remember:

1) The authentic beads have been fairly common and available over the fifty years I have collected and studied beads. No doubt with periods of fewer or more beads appearing at one time or another.

2) The Guerrero industry that makes "reproductions" of pre-Columbian beads has largely made beads that are "too nice" and refined to appear authentic. The material is more-colorful than are many old beads, the shapes are more even, and the drilling is straight and not biconical. Plus the material is more likely to be serpentine than granitic.

One exception I can think of was when I bought two strands of "pre-Columbian crystal" beads that looked quite authentic. When I got them home, I looked at them more carefully—and was surprised to find they were actually made from glass. (Lapidary-worked and drilled.) But, these were not green-stone beads. After I returned them, I was sorry—because I'd like to have them in my Fakes Collection.

I would also make a judgement based upon what I can see. Whether there are expected signs of great age; and what the material and details look like. One cannot be 100% right all the time. AND, it can be difficult to be too confident from a photo. Which is why I said your beads "look OK," rather than that I am sure they are authentic. JDA.



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wonderful find for a collector...
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Posted by: stefany Post Reply
07/26/2018, 07:19:14



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Re: wonderful find for a collector...
Re: wonderful find for a collector... -- stefany Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadstore.com Post Reply
08/01/2018, 10:54:38

Just a word of caution - I've bought from TimeLine Auctions before and the beads turned out to be modern copies. They looked good online, but not so much in person. I'm sure they sell some real stuff too, but my sense is they have a lot of fakes mixed in.

Abe



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Anybody know what they are
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Posted by: monkeyrs6 Post Reply
06/14/2018, 10:39:56

I have inherited these beads but know nothing about them apart from that they are quite old. They look to be hand made as they are all ever so slightly different in shape. The colour seems to run through out the bead and the holes vary slightly. They are about 1cm in size and there is 108 of them on a thread with two more set lower. At first i thought they were glass or some sort of Jade now i have not got a clue.I was planing to sell them but can not find anything like them on the net. Any help on finding what they are would be a great help..Tim UK

DSC_0032_copy.jpg (105.4 KB)  DSC_0031_copy.jpg (88.9 KB)  


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Boshan—yes..., Mandarin—no.
Re: Re: Anybody know what they are -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
06/20/2018, 23:46:48

The technical separation between antique and modern Chinese glass beads was a change in manufacture. Late Ming through Ching (or Xing) Dynasty beads were furnace-wound. The more modern beads have included lampworked beads—which was a specialty at Boshan. But the Boshan industry developed too late to have much or any effect upon the Manchu costume. So it is very unlikely that any lampworked Boshan beads would be found in Mandarin necklaces. I have seen them in FAKE Mandarin necklaces, however.

In terms of appearance, it is the lampworked Boshan glass beads that often feature flattened ends, forming a slightly squat oblate. Furnace wound beads can be oblate too, but they lack the tool-marks seen on lampwork beads. Furnace beads, as often as not, can be somewhat pear-shaped, having a rounded lower end and a pointy upper end.

JDA.



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Many Mandarin necklaces probably contain Boshan glass beads, in my opinion.
Re: Boshan—yes..., Mandarin—no. -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
06/23/2018, 23:29:12

I do not agree with Jamey's opinion that "the Boshan industry developed too late to have much or any effect upon the Manchu costume." Over the last 40 years or so, I have examined more than one hundred authentic Mandarin Court Necklaces, since buying and selling antique Chinese beads has been one of my specialties. I have observed that about half of the MCNs I have handled were made of glass beads. And therefore I reached the conclusion that a significant percentage of Mandarin Court Necklaces made during the Ching Dynasty were either made of glass or, at least, included some glass components. Glass was an inexpensive way to fulfill the color requirements indicating rank of the official wearing the necklace, as compared to coral, ivory, or semi-precious stones.

I am also certain that the MCNs with glass beads and components that I examined were not recent fakes. I became familiar with the parts and construction of authentic pieces by taking many of them apart.

Another piece of evidence supporting the use of Boshan glass in MCNs is the use of glass beads for the finials on Mandarin hats. The finials can be studied much more easily than MCNs since they have metal fittings that can be easily examined for their age appropriate construction and patina. Finials were made to coordinate with the necklaces, supporting a conclusion that glass was commonly used for MCNs.

Note: MCNs typically date from 1644 to 1912 (Ching Dynasty). Boshan glass dates from the 14th century, with Boshan glass beads especially coming into use in the 18th century under Qian Long (1736-1796). For more information see: "Chinese Glass Beads: New Evidence", by Peter Francis (www.thebeadsite.com/be02-ch.htm)…link courtesy of Rosanna.

Robert Liu's article: http://static1.squarespace.com/static/54a8ea9ae4b0d1cd06f46bba/t/54e524efe4b0bc89fe275d35/1424303343507/Orn36_4_ChineseGlassBeads.pdf

And: http://gotheborg.com/glossary/glass.shtml



Modified by Frederick II at Sun, Jun 24, 2018, 12:06:17

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What are the Pros & Cons of buying contemporary repros of antique and ancient beads?
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Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
04/28/2018, 23:57:37



Modified by Frederick II at Sun, Apr 29, 2018, 17:43:31

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Repros for research and education
Re: What are the Pros & Cons of buying contemporary repros of antique and ancient beads? -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: floorkasp Post Reply
04/30/2018, 01:44:24

I buy reproduction beads for a few reasons.
It helps me understand the market for repros and allows me to educate myself and sometimes others on how then can tell the difference.
Sometimes they can give clues on how the original beads were made (but sometimes also the opposite.....) and what they would have looked like in a new condition.

Finally, the fact that the whole of the history of beads is filled with copies, repros, fakes, etc, makes me think that these new beads are also part of that history and tradition. So many ancient glass beads are made to look like natural materials, many Venetian beads are inspired by ancient glass beads, etc.
The ones being made now are just another chapter.



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"TRIBUTES"
Re: Repros for research and education -- floorkasp Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: stefany Post Reply
04/30/2018, 02:25:19

I value copies and don't like to think of them as fakes but as "tributes"-
Even ancient beadmakers copied the items which were sought after and they loved- so it teaches us more about the history of tastes and customs, as well as often revealing their levels of technical skill, and whom they hoped to trade with.

it gets a bit ridiculous though when you find necklaces of plastic shells that aren't even rare...!
-says something about our civilisation...



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Re: Pros & Cons
Re: What are the Pros & Cons of buying contemporary repros of antique and ancient beads? -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
04/30/2018, 01:32:01

I think the answers to this question are fairly self-evident. The Pros are that you get to have and enjoy some of the most-beautiful and well-made beads circulating in recent times. They are impressive products, in their own right(s).

The Cons are that MANY people are delightfully uninformed about reproductions—and have been conned into thinking the beads they have bought are much older, more valuable, and rarer than is the truth (as I have remarked numerous times).

So, the pros are based on impressive esthetics; while the cons are based on misrepresentation and rip-off mentality.

Thankfully, BCN Forum exists to counter misinformation and deception, by informing the reading public that these scams are being perpetrated. And all the while we get to view photographs of great stuff along the way. JDA.

http://beadcollector.net/cgi-bin/anyboard.cgi?fvp=%2Fopenforum%2F&tK=java+Beadman&wT=1&yVz=yTz&aO=1&hIz=5000&hJz=4000&cmd=find&by=&xcfgfs=tK-wT-yVz-aO-hKz

http://beadcollector.net/cgi-bin/anyboard.cgi?fvp=%2Fopenforum%2F&tK=java+Beadman&wT=1&yVz=yTz&aO=1&hIz=4000&hJz=3000&cmd=find&by=&xcfgfs=tK-wT-yVz-aO-hKz

http://beadcollector.net/cgi-bin/anyboard.cgi?fvp=%2Fopenforum%2F&tK=java+Beadman&wT=1&yVz=yTz&aO=1&hIz=3000&hJz=2000&cmd=find&by=&xcfgfs=tK-wT-yVz-aO-hKz



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Re: Re: Pros & Cons
Re: Re: Pros & Cons -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: odan Post Reply
04/30/2018, 08:05:29

The same thing happened to fine art as well. Some very famous artist trained by copying originals. The more simple the art is the more fakes there are. Picasso is one example.
Therefore....more education was required to be called an expert on any particular artist.
Anything that can be of value is subject to counterfeiting. You can see this with civil war items. even uniform buttons are counterfeited.
This means that as collectors....you need to be sharp.
I see lots of repo's on the market. Most of these are listed as repo's.
And...this is a gr8 way for non-collectors to get the look of old beads.
Mountain men love beads and they can get that Venetian look for way less then if thy bought antique beads.
It's the fools who advertise them as antique or ancient that screw things up.
Many sellers of beads expect the buyers to be able to tell the difference.
The more you know the better off you are....



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What are the pros and cons concerning correcting bead sellers when they present mistaken offers?
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Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
07/11/2017, 13:56:23



Modified by Frederick II at Tue, Jul 11, 2017, 14:04:25

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I love free advice!
Re: What are the pros and cons concerning correcting bead sellers when they present mistaken offers? -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: CoinCoin Post Reply
07/18/2017, 10:26:52

My site offers hundreds of trade bead strands and singles and I KNOW there's misdescription, nonsense, and a clear demonstration that I'm not among the 50 most knowledgeable bead sellers on the internet. It's not deliberate, though, and I LOVE when someone corrects me - will usually fix it within 24 hours. Being on BCN has helped me, and a couple of present and former posters have been generous in sharing their knowledge with me. Thanks Again!

I want to offer, for what it's worth, moral support for those of you who take the risk of contacting ebay (and other) sellers to point out misdescription and fakes. A hobby without folks like you is like a body without an immune system.



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Warring States Beads @ Auction?
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Posted by: beadstore.com Post Reply
04/17/2017, 06:20:08

Auction_Warring_1.jpg (172.8 KB)  Warring_Auction_2.jpg (179.3 KB)  


Modified by Admin at Mon, Apr 17, 2017, 06:26:30

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Lankton's known replicas
Re: Warring States Beads @ Auction? -- beadstore.com Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: mosquitobay Post Reply
04/18/2017, 14:16:02

Below are two examples of replicas or fakes if you care to use that description that came from the James Lankton collection. I do not know the source, but they have been around for some time and I am pretty sure they did not come from Indonesia.

These beads are just too rare to judge what is real or not by photography even though the pictures are excellent. I wouldn't touch these with a ten foot glass rod without some serious provenance.

7110a.jpg (170.7 KB)  7111a.jpg (220.9 KB)  


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But these are such obvious fakes...
Re: Lankton's known replicas -- mosquitobay Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Will Post Reply
04/18/2017, 19:43:11

... and in no way comparable to the auction beads. As I said before, I can't see any flaws in them, but like you, Jan, I wouldn't think of bidding without serious provenance. But hey, I'd never be able to afford that, anyway, would I?

However, I'd love to have the chance to touch them (without your ten foot glass rod!). Here (attached) is one I did get to hold last year in the Royal Ontario Museum, but with the little cotton gloves that everyone has to wear nowadays, you seldom get to actually "touch" anything unfortunately. This one is definitely authentic; it was collected for the museum in the 1930s. Interestingly, the devitrification bears a resemblance to the artificial patina that is sometimes said to be a distinguishing mark on a lot of the fakes made in the last 15 or so years in China.

Best,

Will


romwsbead.jpg (83.7 KB)  


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Warring States
Re: Warring States Beads @ Auction? -- beadstore.com Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Timbuk-2 Post Reply
04/27/2017, 14:42:23

The ultimate precision and beauty - especially of bead Nr. 1 - is unsurpassed. Not often have I seen such perfection in a glassbead, leave alone lots of COLD-WORKING is involved here!

IMPOSSIBLE they could be fakes or repros!!!

From all unanswered questions on ancient beads, this would be my first one:

"How did you do this, guys? How "the holy ***k" did you do this?"



Modified by Timbuk-2 at Thu, Apr 27, 2017, 17:34:32

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TUTTI FRUTTI
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Posted by: Timbuk-2 Post Reply
04/09/2017, 09:10:23

"Roman bears" - ca. 150/200 AD (I say).

AAN.jpg (98.5 KB)  AAT.jpg (111.7 KB)  


Modified by Timbuk-2 at Sun, Apr 09, 2017, 10:23:05

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Fakie, Flackie
Re: TUTTI FRUTTI -- Timbuk-2 Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: TASART Post Reply
04/09/2017, 14:11:43

These appear to be a modern attempt at faking ancient bead types, everything looks wrong, color, patina, glass type... etc



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Snow White with Frog-Eyes - A True Crime(a) Story
Re: Fakie, Flackie -- TASART Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Timbuk-2 Post Reply
04/09/2017, 16:35:47

Gummy Bears, in other words!

I am disappointed, Mister Stricker! It hurts, to hear this
from Stuggard! I had expected a "complacency report", as is normal among countrymen.

Please start from scratch, take second look and put those fancy glasses on!

It is very true that those ~10 white ones (with raised eyes in a light-blue color) are rare - but that does not mean they are Chinese!

The whole lot cannot be fake - no way! Look at the round(ish) semi-translucent green ones. Some with strat-eyes, others with cane. One had to be a massive moron to fake such types. Even if authentic - what I insist these are - they won't cost hardly more than the equivalent of three Triple-Mäcs with brown "Hash-Mash" and Maple syrup.

The yellow ones? Those with the blue/white eyes? Fakes too? No way! Fakes if offered as Phoenician, as Cheryakhovian they are authentic and at least 1600 years old.

I "passover" this farbergenian Rus-eggs over to you as better photos, once I receive them on Easter-Monday. I will buy the strand. Should they not meet your authenticity standards, they might be a nice addition into Stefany's "Copycat-Collection".

Do not forget:
Though made under Roman occupation (in Crimea) between the II and IV centuries, they are no classic "Roman beads" from the heartland. That explains their provincial, diasporian country-side Plebs-appeal.

Have you noticed the few green/yellow specimen with design-traces of a "Fustat Fused Rod Bead"? Left and right twisted "stringers", applied directly onto a mandrel - not into a base or a core? I doubt a chinesean beadmaker from China would even know, think, or care about this technique.

Two beads are in doubt, though - even for me:
The first is the bigger roundish white piece (with canna-green zig-zag), the other the weird feather-type right next to white one (with only a dark-blue eye-bead keeping both apart from each other). The rest - the white "Gummy Bears" with lightblue frogs-eyes included - are ancient, hence authentic, hence 1600 to 1800 years of age!

If only Jamey were in a position to play "Beadman" again. I would make his evaluation my own, should he decide to agree with me, that is!

Your "report-short" wont go to the top of my file-pile!

True is also that you had no quality-pics to base your evaluation on. Meaning you are excused, Thomasinho - kinda...!



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a true sleuth would.....
Re: Snow White with Frog-Eyes - A True Crime(a) Story -- Timbuk-2 Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: TASART Post Reply
04/10/2017, 10:20:58

If I were a true sleuth, I would take into consideration that they are making great copies of facebeads and other complex cane varieties with ease, I'm sure many buyers have been duped by excellent reproductions coming out of Iran and Crimea to name just two locations known for great fakes, your arguments make sense if there were NOT an already thriving industry making these types. I will grant you that there is no norm or standard type and the beadmakers from similar eras made "close but no cigar" bead types in varying locations, this does not change my opinion and I still say the bead appear to be modern repros



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Are copyists helping or harming the antique collectible beads market?
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Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
03/13/2017, 20:17:33



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Re: Are copyists helping or harming the antique collectible beads market?
Re: Are copyists helping or harming the antique collectible beads market? -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: bsteinberg Post Reply
03/14/2017, 17:47:36

Harming - no question
Although the existence of fakes heightens one's appreciation for the real thing
Fakes make us look closer



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CLOSER LOOK
Re: Re: Are copyists helping or harming the antique collectible beads market? -- bsteinberg Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Timbuk-2 Post Reply
03/16/2017, 14:41:23

EXELLENT point!
Very true (though this is actually a counter-argument against "Harming", what you said first).

Both is true, I guess - just as you say:
Fakes/copies are a bad thing for everybody (but the faker), but since every bad thing has also a positive aspect, they really force us to have a second (and third+!!) look.



Modified by Timbuk-2 at Thu, Mar 16, 2017, 14:41:51

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The Chinese mentality
Re: Are copyists helping or harming the antique collectible beads market? -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: CoinCoin Post Reply
03/15/2017, 20:25:31

Well, you see, it's a cultural difference, all a matter of viewpoint, you know. It's part of the tradition of venerating the past, including old cultural objects. Entire blocks in China are filled with factories cranking out nothing but fakes - metal, glass, paper, you name it. Its not illegal. I guess the Chinese venerate old Venetian glass, American silver dollars, and rare Hollywood movie posters. Very broadminded of them. The coin hobby has divided into three camps, those who cross their fingers and hope the dealers they buy from are both knowledgeable and honest, those who buy only professionally certified coins, entombed in plastic slabs that add considerably to the cost of the item, and those who try to skate down the middle by buying provenanced coins. That means you can identify it from a picture in an old auction catalog, or it comes in a distinctive envelope in the style of a known collector. And by the way, as one of those supposedly honest and knowledgeable dealers in Chinese coins, I freely admit that the quality of the fakes has gotten way beyond my abilities.

How many beads or strands are provenancable? What you see at a site like Picard? That's .01% of what's out there. Rough times ahead for collectors. There's already one African Trader, Md. Dr., who "specializes" in Chinese knockoffs.



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Fake mentality
Re: The Chinese? mentality~ -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Timbuk-2 Post Reply
03/16/2017, 15:40:59

Japan was a major faker in the 50's and 60's. Most of their early radios and TV's were (mostly) German knockoffs. They got so good ultimately that they are now the leading force in that departement of consumer goods (while the Germany companies - originally their secret teachers - went bankrupt).

Faking can also be justified to some degree, I think.

Some time ago I bought a Louis Poulsen design-lamp in China (https://www.wunschlicht.de/louis-poulsen-ph-artichoke-zapfen-60cm.html?child=74879&utm_source=GoogleShopping&gcurrency=eur&gcountry=de&gclid=Cj0KEQjw76jGBRDm1K-X_LnrmuEBEiQA8RXYZx4-JP8tTYbOHaCfzlwx_MYa1ekTDlbQvjyFgpPcyA0aAtsX8P8HAQ) for ~300$.
The VERY SAME (!!!!!) lamp cost the "criminal amount" of ca. 9.500 Dollars, when bought "as original" in Europe.
I have paid roundabout 30 times less.

The very same is valid for a whole army of design item. Since I paid only 3% of the original price for my lamp I was actually happy - I freely admit - that fakers existed to help me getting this crown-jewel of a design-lamp!

Let's fake it - "face it", sorry - faking is not only taking place in China or in the beadworld, but is an often cancerous aspect in many parts of the arts.

The term "industrial espionage" is an old, but at the same time a very modern phenomenon - done by every single corporation in every single country!

Even the trustworthy German company of "VOLKSWAGEN" begun to fake the parameters of the exhaust waste gases of their Diesel cars. Cost them billions now!

And America...?
They are leading in faking ("re-engineering" called) vehicles from other star-systems! Yes - it's true!



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Reprocop
Re: Fake mentality -- Timbuk-2 Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Timbuk-2 Post Reply
03/18/2017, 05:29:57

A good way to avoid buying reproductions or fakes is to know and understand how the originals are made. Usually a reproduction cannot be made the same way as the original. To wide the gap in materials, labor costs and modern production techniques.

Most of this does not apply to modern fakers of faking ancient beads. That's why things are especially difficult for the buyer of ancient glass!



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yellowjackets...
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Posted by: stefany Post Reply
02/12/2017, 08:38:56

when i was in Sarawak in 2015 i sold a small collection of "yellowjackets". when i got back i realised i had none left, so just now in Tucson i was looking out for a few more examples.
On the short string in the middle are a few i found individually, and a long loop shown round the outside.
the types vary- there are:
1) a couple with wide apertures and red centres,
2) one or two with white then red, then yellow then black with yellow stripes,
3) and then again white central layers followed by red, white, black, yellow stripes...

the other string has all beads with narrow holes, red centre layers then white then black and yellow

they seem to have a slightly different red perhaps- and i wondered if those might be Chinese "tributes"?

Any ideas, anyone?

IMG_2849_copy.jpg (251.9 KB)  


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Yellowjacket Chevrons
Re: yellowjackets... -- stefany Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Timbuk-2 Post Reply
02/12/2017, 10:26:06

They look new to me, Stefany - especially those on the left side of the photo. With the exception of a few, the others might be modern Chinese! Let's hope I'm wrong - I am not the ultimate expert for modern Chinese fakes.

Was nice to see you after nearly 2 decades - you haven't changed a bit.



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Indonesian beads: are these old?
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Posted by: CoinCoin Post Reply
01/17/2017, 15:29:01

Seller says these are about 16x16mm and date to 600-1200 AD. Can anyone tell whether these are that old, or newer?

CanadaBeads.jpg (201.5 KB)  


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Unusual Jatim
Re: Unusual Jatim With Multiple Cane Patterns -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Timbuk-2 Post Reply
01/20/2017, 08:10:13

I wonder how such rather big beads had been worn traditionally and by whom and when? Possibly too heavy (and precious) as daily jewelry, especially since a full necklace must have been rather heavy.

Authentic pieces like this ones - the two on the left side are exceptionally wonderful collectibles - never really got the full appreciation they deserve, I fear (not in the West, that is).

Another pity the fact that all this "perfect copies" seem to have destroyed the market. Jatim beads are not my speciality, but it is not only for that reason I would not feel confident to decide between old and new specimen. Speaks for the contemporary makers, not my knowledge, I guess!

Still wonderful beads - even the new ones!



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Re: Unusual Jatim
Re: Unusual Jatim -- Timbuk-2 Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Will Post Reply
01/20/2017, 14:27:59

- Thanks, Jamey, for the images. The beads in the lower photo are in Magical Ancient Beads, aren't they? They're lovely beads and rare; the use of different coloured eye canes is quite unusual, less than 1% of production I estimate. But in the modern reproductions they're everywhere, I guess because they're thought to be pretty and there's a demand for prettiness. The Lindstrom beads are very strange, both the surface and the apparently random mix of canes. Are they constructed in the traditional way?

- Scott, I've been looking for an example of what I was talking about with regard to the area around the perforation on the bead on the left hand side of your photo. I think what we see there is a relatively new way of trying to imitate the marks that were sometimes left when a bead was separated from a longer cane. I hadn't seen it before, but I just found these fake pelangis (first attachment) on eBay from a Thai seller; they're described there as "Majapahit", and it's the same kind of effect as on the one you showed. For an authentic bead that this is trying to copy, see page 106 in Magical Ancient Beads.

- Juergen: These Jatims were not buried with bodies so we don't know how they were worn (unlike a lot of mainland Southeast Asian ancient beads). The size of the larger ones seems to suggest that they were worn occasionally and as status symbols, like many bronze pendants from the region. (The huge Hellenistic-era beads that were made in southern Russia and Ukraine are found in association with horse harnesses in burial mounds in the Caucasus - another kind of status in nomadic cultures).

Regarding the question of whether the availability of good reproductions has frightened the market away from Jatims and reduced their value, I'm really not sure. It hasn't happened with dzi, has it? I don't pay much attention to bead prices, but I do think there's been a drift away from glass to stone, and this has affected the market for ancient glass beads generally.

The second attachment is of some Indo-Pacific and Jatim beads (and possibly some ancient Byzantine-era imports also) that were dug up further west of the usual Javanese sites where Jatims are found - quite unusual beads also.

Best,

Will

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Modified by Will at Fri, Jan 20, 2017, 14:31:45

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Borneo Dyak strand
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Posted by: CoinCoin Post Reply
01/06/2017, 08:05:22

This strand (167 beads, 55" long) was collected in Borneo in 1967 by a natural scientist who had a business supplying mineral and fossil specimens, but he also bought craft and money items. This was probably some family's heirloom strand.

My own experience is with beads from the Africa trade, and I recognize a few of the types, but am curious about the rest. Are there Chinese (or other non-European) beads here? It strikes me that the beads are smaller on average than those found in the Africa trade - the largest are barely over 10mm width. Is anyone familiar with heirloom beads from Borneo or nearby, and how does this compare as far as the size and mixture of types?

The link is to 500% scan for better viewing:

image

XG1220.small.jpg (237.5 KB)  

Related link: Borneo Dyak strand

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Scanning vs photo
Re: Re: Borneo Dyak strand -- bonpo Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: CoinCoin Post Reply
01/08/2017, 18:13:45

I know! Scanning works pretty well for coins, and I don't have to have any chops as a photographer, but with beads the degree of translucency is mostly lost with a scan, and brightness has to be bumped. If I bump the saturation, sometimes the beads look too rich, and I'm worried buyers will come to distrust the images. I gnash my teeth trying to get white beads to show well. Some of my worthy competitors know how to do the photography so much better, so the same strands from the same sources look so nice on their sites and so rotten on mine.



Modified by CoinCoin at Sun, Jan 08, 2017, 18:14:36

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The "Manchurian Candidate"
Re: Scanning vs photo -- CoinCoin Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Timbuk-2 Post Reply
01/09/2017, 17:56:05

This is the bead I was talking about, during our quest to detect the truth from "Indochine".

I would also like to explain what I meant with one, two (or max. five non-Indonesian beads among your strand). When saying so, I left all monochrome blue specimen aside. Though I cannot say if they are Indonesian too (possibly not), I can say with certainty that they are not Venetian. In other words: All such (monochrome blue) beads were left unconsidered in my evaluation what is Asian and what is (not) European. This blue beads might be Chinese indeed and they could even be FM-beads from Bavaria (though it's not likely) or any other furnace-winding industry, ex Görece - an industry I have visited, and industry this beads are definitely not from. No idea what kind of wound beads Cairo and Herat made - certainly monochrome blue ones - but I an not pointing in that direction anyway. I think China might be a likely candidate - though for not much more than the geographical proximity.

Though I do not have the photo in front of me, I would like to state that not all monochrome blue beads on the strand are from the same maker. Two of them, those in a somewhat darker middle-blue laying next to each other, are most likely from another industry than those pieces a few centimeters higher on the photo, in the same area of the strand towards the right side on the scan.

I spoke with longtime collector today - one without ties to the forum. Like me, he pointed immedeately towards Indonesia, though I had not (not!) given him the option to choose between Europe and Asia. Only when I added the hypothetical question: "...not Venice?" he said without the slightest doubt in his voice, quote: "NO WAY!" (Niemals...).

Regarding age he wasn't sure, due to the make good fakes coming out of Asia these days. Pressing him for a guess, he said exactly the same I wrote and still think: "Between 1900 and 1950".

The person I am refering to is not a hobbyist, but a longtime collector of beads and related artefacts - one of the first hour!

Whatever..., just sayin'!

The bead - copied from our sales-site (with many other beads of interest), assuming your silent agreement to do so - is the only Venetian bead I see on your strand from Borneo!


PS
I would very much welcome, if you could maybe say a few more words about the guarantee (should you have any additional information). Did you get the strand directly from that person or his family or was it boought recently from a dealer?

XG1146FQ.jpg (138.3 KB)  


Modified by Timbuk-2 at Tue, Jan 10, 2017, 06:34:12

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My 2 cents worth
Re: Borneo Dyak strand -- CoinCoin Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: floorkasp Post Reply
01/10/2017, 04:17:38

Let me put in my opinion on these as well.

From the overall look and style, I think that most of these beads were made in Venice, but with a very specific culture in mind as customers. The style, colors, shape, application of details, use of twisted cane and such can all be found on Venetian made beads for both the European and African market. Am I 100% sure? No.

There are some that have quite different colors or shapes that look like they were not made in Venice, but may be made in China or elsewhere in Asia. There are a handful that look like they could be modern copies, but my general idea is that the group as such is older than the more recent Indonesian made beads.

It might be good to consider the way glass beads like this are made. Although there were larger companies (especially in Venice) behind the export of beads and the production of glass, the production of beads is often small scale. It could quite easily be that a small workshop specialized in a certain type of beads, that never made it anywhere but in this case Borneo. Especially lampwork beads: they are all made individually. No molds, no machines, it is all just a person at a torch making them. This also means there is not one level of finesse, or one type of quality that you can attribute to Venice. It comes down to the individual maker and perhaps the quality control of the company.

I have been to the Czech Republic quite a few times, and I think I have a pretty good grasp on which beads were made there. However, so many beads that end up in the trade, never show up in the Czech Republic itself. Not in the museum, not in antique shops, not in old stock. Still, they are typical Czech beads which I can tell from the type of glass used and the production method. It strengthens my idea that certain beads were made very specifically for export, and never circulated anywhere else.



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2 cents
Re: My 2 cents worth -- floorkasp Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Timbuk-2 Post Reply
01/10/2017, 11:25:23

Interesting thoughts!

But none I can agree with. These are my reasons:

1.) Beadmaking - not only, but especially in Venice - was a very traditional craft. To assume local beadmakers could leave these traditions behind and invent or copy new designs for a certain market, is not likely!

2.) So in this case according to you - certain Venetian beadmakers made beads for the market in Borneo. That argument leads to the following:
Local beadmakers also created different designs for Angola, Paraguay, China, Russia and Mongolia. Is that likely? Of course not!

3.) Even though the "guarantee" (leave alone some knowledgable posters on this forum) mentions Indonesian beads being (at least) part of the strand, you say that only...

- Venice
- China and
- elsewhere in Asia

are likely candidates as makers, with Indonesia not even qualifying as an option?

4.) You seriously assume it is more likely certain Venetian beadmakers made "Indonesian style" beads, than Indonesia itself? That is a weird hypothesis, one tht is quite far from reality.

5.) Such an idea alone (my point 4) is proof that you yourself do not see classic Venetian designs on that strand. To conclude from your own observations that it is more likely "Venetian copyists" made the beads and not Indonesians themselves, is far fetched and completely beyond me.

6.) Of course Venetian beads are individually made without tools, molds and machines and that, you say, leads to different levels of finesse, if I understood correct. I say: 95+% of all Venetian beads have fairly simple designs and beadmaker can master after only a short time of practise. Would Venetian beadmaking be a more difficult artform, it had not been possibly for thousands of local woman do make them.

That said I would like to repeat what I have said a few times during the course of this discussion: I am not as knowledgable about the history of Venetian beads as others on this forum (those who speak up and those who don't) and the same goes for Indonesian beads. My speciality - so to speak - are Muraqad, with some decent knowledge on some of the other industries. Still - this rather mediocre knowledge and experience help me enough to exclude Venice as a maker.

What is left than as the only other option with merit? What is more likely now? A secret "undercover Borneo-bead operation" in Venice or
Indonesia itself? What makes more sense? What is more logical?

Regarding the question new vs. old it is ultimately true that a final assessment is easier to make with the beads in hand, especially for me, who has never seen and touched a single Indonesian bead of recent production.

Still - and despite Tasarts post ("fairly recent production" is what he said, if I recall correctly) and the longer talk I had last night with another knowledgable collector, I do not agree with the notion of a recent production (aka "fakes"). I hang on to my earlier statement: a production between 1920-1950.

That the beads - minus one and minus the blue specimen - are of Indonesian manufacture I have stated often enough!

So am I 100% certain...?

About Indonesia clearly yes - 100%
About age not - only 75%



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HARRAPAN "ETCHING" SITE
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Posted by: Timbuk-2 Post Reply
01/08/2017, 17:34:20

Since we paying Asia a visit, we might want to travel some 3000 miles westwards. From Borneo and the Java-Sea to Gujarat in West - the Runn of Kachchhch to be more precise. Only another 25 miles North-West of India's Carneol/Quartz-center Cambay (actually not the best of descriptions, I could-have, should-have come up with) lies the little village of Lothal, a site of great importance during the HARRAPA-Culture. The description as INDUS CULTURE, is an alternative name for one of the earliest cities known to architecture. It flourished during the Indian bronze-age, 5.000 years ago - roughly 3000 - 2000 BC.

Most of you will know at least one product of a civilisation that spread out through Afghanistan, Pakistan and parts of India.

"Etched Agates" is the name of the product, widely used by Western collectors - wrong say those with a better understanding of the technique engaged in the process.

It was during my second visit - of three - that I made the following shots. One of them showing a site that has been involved in the process.

The "bead" - actually a cabochon - had been bought in Cambay the following day (in close vincinity of Lothal - back in 2006/7). Of course the writing is not Indus-related by any means, as is clearly visible, but is nevertheless a riddle, since no Muslim has been able to read the words to this day.

The whitish building is the little local museum!

2017-01-083-D.jpg (142.9 KB)  


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"ETCHED" CABOCHON (two photos)
Re: "ETCHED" CABOCHON -- Timbuk-2 Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Timbuk-2 Post Reply
01/09/2017, 12:06:34

The missing pics - sorry!

Hopefully easier for you to read and translate, Ali!

18_12.jpg (153.0 KB)  14_13.jpg (122.4 KB)  


Modified by Timbuk-2 at Mon, Jan 09, 2017, 12:07:30

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Re: "ETCHED" CABOCHON (two photos)
Re: "ETCHED" CABOCHON (two photos) -- Timbuk-2 Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: ali persia Post Reply
01/10/2017, 09:45:26

Hi Timbuk
If you give me a day I will show pic to my friend who has some of these carnelions also.and I will ask his idea and send you some of his stones pic.shiraz was center for old beads but not any more.all now mostly fakes or normal agates.not any more nice glass ceramic beads.if you visite shiraz some time I can help you .to see some
Cheers
Ali



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Kiffas with resin and lapis...
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Posted by: Timbuk-2 Post Reply
11/14/2016, 23:00:04

An unusual strand, to say the least!

As a lover of tiny and intricate little things of art (like Netsuke, for example) it's nice to see what others do with liliput things.

Two things have to be mentioned for the record:

1.) The beads - leave alone no size or reference was delivered - might belong to the smaller versions within the Muraqat-family, but there are certainly (much) smaller pieces then the ones presented here. I can deliver proof only after Tucson-2017, but will then show you a whole strand of old micro-Kiffas in great shape and intricate designs.

2.) The nice little "amber-pieces" appear to be phenolic resin or "African amber", if you like to call them such. Those pieces are of a more recent manufacture, though it must be said that (old) "age" alone is not the only factor for beauty or value.

Had been nice to see them being worn, though I bet that looks cute!

1_DSC07917.jpg (43.2 KB)  


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And Here
Re: See Also Here -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
11/17/2016, 03:43:16


Related link: http://beadcollector.net/cgi-bin/anyboard.cgi?fvp=/openforum/&cmd=iYz&aK=60388&iZz=60388&gV=0&kQz=&aO=1&iWz=0

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Excerpts From Past Dialogues Here
Re: And Here -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
11/19/2016, 16:40:59

NAMES

4-19-2006 - Allen [to Evelyn]:
“I just received my new Ornament and was paging through it earlier today on the bus to home. Your article on Kiffa (muracad) beads looks very nice. I look forward to reading it.”

6-27-06 - Busch [to the audience]:
“Instead they are just a certain type of simpler Nourakad, though not mahmoud-made, of course.”

“Not all beads on this photo show Nourakad.”

6-28-06 - Busch [to Steve]:
“The bead itself is not only simple and plain, also rather,....yes, ugly even, surely when compared to other, leave alone elaborate Nourakad.”

“Nourakad with ‘Hambilya-design’ are possibly the most common design among round shaped powderglass beads from Mauritania.”

6-28-06 - Allen [to Stricker]:
“Kirk Stanfield swears that his informant in Mauritania specifically said that what we popularly call "Kiffa" beads are called "murakad" by Mauritanians. Further, he says the name "nourakad" ONLY refers to a shape of certain beads, and is not a general name for the whole group. "Nourakad" was published by Jürgen Busch as a general name. Kirk says he [Busch] was misinformed or that he possibly misunderstood.”

6-30-06 - Busch [to adjichristine]:
“Sorry, I am not so familiar with your names, but I think it was Steve who had shown some of his Nourakad recently, but asked a question about a specific one.”

6-30-06 - Busch [to Evelyn]:
“The patina, workmanship and general appearance tells the rest. A rare and obscure Nourakad.”

9-14-06 - Allen [to adichristine]:
“Murakad beads must be later than the beads they copy. As demonstrated in my article in Ornament, murakad beads routinely copy beads that are as old as the Islamic Period, and from as late as the late Trade Bead Period—the 20th century.”

1-24-07 - Allen [to PK]:
“Kiffa beads, also called ‘muracad,’ are modern beads.”

8-16-07 - Allen [to BCN Admin]:
“Are muracad (‘Kiffa’) beads modern? They absolutely are!”

9-2-08 - Allen [to Morris]
“Although some Kiffa (murakad) beads copy Venetian millefiori beads, I don't know of a Venetian millefiori bead with a pattern similar to this one.”

11-15-08 - Busch [to Allen]:
“NOT "Muracad"! MOUARGHAD is the bead's real name, instead!”

11-19-08 - Allen [to the audience]:
“‘Muracad’ is the name Kirk Stanfield received from an informant in Mauritania. It has been published, and he has communicated to me that he believes the name Mr. Busch prefers is wrong. If Mr. Busch thinks he is not mistaken, he can prove it. My mind is open. The informant didn't speak to me....”

11-19-08 - Busch [to Allen]:
“You, of all people, suddenly rely on an [sic] follow Kirk, not me, when it comes to information on ‘Kiffas’?”

“Right, Kirk insisted - that was a few years ago, when he returned from a trip to Mauritania - the correct Hassaniya name for ‘Kiffa Beads’ is ‘MURACAD’. True is [sic] is further, that I disagreed an [sic] said ‘NURACAD’ was the correct spelling an pronounciation [sic]. With an ‘N’ and not an ‘M’ in the front, I said! Kirk said the opposite! The difference was the difference between an ‘M’ and an ‘N’.
KIRK WAS CORRECT! But wait...!”

“... I insist, actually I know!!, that Kirk´s knowledge on ‘Kiffas’ is less than mine.”

“...I am certain that Kirk´s ‘Kiffa-knowledge’ on the other hand, exeeds [sic] the knowledge you have on this [sic] beads.”

“Had you read, had you known that I already came up with a third and very recent version of the spelling -one that is neither Kirk´s nor my version with an ‘N’ in the front - both had been wrong, actually - but since I had given the translation of that word in that post (2-3 days back), you should have sensed that I expanded my knowledge on the correct spelling, meanwhile!”

1-26-13 - Stanfield [to Stricker]:
“the ‘murakad’”

11-15-16 - Busch [to the audience]:
“I propose we change old habbits and call the beads Muraqat (‘The Colorful’)- their real name ..., in Mauritania, their place of origin."


?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

THE TIME-RANGE FOR ROLLED-PAD BEADS

6-27-06 - Busch [to the audience]:
“Not all beads on this photo show Nourakad. One of them shown here is of Middle Eastern production, possibly, more surely than just possibly, made some time around 800-1000 AD.”

6-28-06 - Busch [to Evelyn]:
“Locally called ‘HAMBLIYA’, this ca. 1000 year old drawn bead from Fustat (Cairo) - being of the same period than ‘MORFIA’..."

8-17-07 - Allen [to Gabriel]:
“I agree that Islamic Period glass beads are ‘ancient’ beads—and I have never said otherwise. In fact, I am the PRIME motivator in the recognition of the contribution of beadmaking from this period. Prior to my personal work in this arena, the typical presentation of these beads suggested they were ‘Roman’—making them about 1,000 year's too early. I have worked for twenty-three years to change this perception and misrepresentation, beginning with what I still regard as the correct timeframe for beads from West Africa that I maintain are Islamic, but that are still routinely misrepresented as ‘Roman’ (that began in the mid-1980s). There can be no doubt that the tradition of Islamic beadmaking extends back into Roman times, and no doubt that this is an ancient tradition. However, it is much less than accurate to call it a ‘Roman tradition’—because this region is the HOME of glassworking, and it's the Romans who merely exploited it rather than devised it.
I hope this clarifies my position. I have said all of this MANY times.”

9-10-06 - Allen [to Steve]:
“Prior to the time that I introduced the concept of Islamic Period beads, all of these were routinely identified as ‘Roman’ beads. This was happening, even from knowledgeable bead researchers, as recently as about ten years ago. My ideas stem from my original research conducted in the early '80s, and stressed in lectures and publications ever since that time.”

11-15-08 - Allen [to Gabriel]:
“This is a rolled-pad glass bead, made from a millefiori plaque. As such it cannot be Venetian, because they never made beads this way. Rolled-pad beads date from Roman through Islamic times, and are practically no longer made (even by most fakers--which is how you can tell a bead is a fake). Your bead is somewhat similar to a bunch Thomas Stricker showed a while back, though from simpler canes. These are Islamic Period beads that inspired certain beads from Mauritania in the Kiffa (muracad) family.”

11-15-08 - Busch [to Allen]:
“What do you mean saying this [sic] beads are from the ‘Islamic period’?”

“You stated these are ‘Islamic Period’ beads while, elsewhere, you call rolled-pad beads being from Roman through Islamic times. How are you going to argue yourself out of your very own contradiction?”

“Such beads are most likely from Egyptian workshops - possibly FUSTAT-made around 800-850 AD - the original ‘design-idea’ goes possibly further back into the past and into Roman times!”

11-24-08 - Allen [to the audience]:
“In my 1996 article on Kiffa beads, I indicated that certain patterns copy the decorations of a specific group of rolled-pad beads from the Islamic Period. I demonstrated this by showing both bead styles, and substantiated it with a reliable reference (using a work by Johann Callmer—the eminent Scandinavian scholar who has published often on Viking beads). Here's a work that was published the same year as my article, that further substantiates my observation. This is p. 157 from a work titled ‘Ancient Trades and Cultural Contacts in Southeast Asia.’ Note that these same rolled-pad beads are shown, and are said to be Eastern Mediterranean and from ca. the 9th to 10th centuries (though recovered in Thailand).”

?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

“EXACTLY THE SAME” ?

11-15-08 - Allen [to Gabriel]:
“This is a rolled-pad glass bead, made from a millefiori plaque. As such it cannot be Venetian, because they never made beads this way. Rolled-pad beads date from Roman through Islamic times, and are practically no longer made (even by most fakers--which is how you can tell a bead is a fake). Your bead is somewhat similar to a bunch Thomas Stricker showed a while back, though from simpler canes. These are Islamic Period beads that inspired certain beads from Mauritania in the Kiffa (muracad) family. They are fairly rare beads--so enjoy.

11-15-08 - Busch [to Allen]:
“This bead is not - compared to Thomas´ beads - just ‘somewhat simelar’ [sic], as you say. I say the bead is EXACTLY of the VERY same family: same size; same shape; same colors; same color combinations AND same production technic as Thomas' beads!”

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

ANOTHER VIEW OF THE PROBLEM OF CRITICIZING OTHERS

11-20-08 - Will [to Busch]:
“You are wrong on several counts. You are wrong initially because you jump into a judgement about these beads without offering any adequate justification for your opinion. You say, at one point, that the right-hand bead is a fake made in Indonesia. In fact, it is nothing like the Indonesian fakes of Warring States beads. Then, elsewhere, you say that you have seen a lot of these beads in Peshawar. I know Peshawar quite well, too, and I very much doubt that assertion, or rather I would bet that you didn't look closely enough at the beads you saw there to notice how different they were from the beads that Steve posted here.
What I am saying is that you need to back up your assertions with something more concrete, something called evidence, and you haven't in fact done that with any of the beads whose authenticity you have recently called into question on this forum. So that makes you wrong, not just on this particular count, but habitually. It is quite simply irresponsible to start challenging things merely because you ‘feel there is something wrong with them.’ Why should I trust your feelings? I want to hear your reasons.
And you are wrong again when you accuse people of reacting in either a defensive or a cowardly way when they take offence to your unsubstantiated assertions or, alternatively, when they don't reply at all because they can't be bothered to argue with someone who hasn't had any arguments to present. Why do you assume that they owe you something more?”

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Modified by Beadman at Sat, Nov 19, 2016, 16:46:05

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Istanbul trip
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Posted by: floorkasp Post Reply
09/29/2016, 11:27:57

Went to Istanbul for a week and had a great time.
The Turkish culture is full of beads, especially 'Evil eye beads' and prayer beads. here are some pics of beads and bead related things from my trip.

First ones:
Eye beads/pendants on a window front
Large ceramic beads and eye beads in the market

BCN_istanbul_-_1_van_24.jpg (88.4 KB)  BCN_istanbul_-_2_van_24.jpg (64.7 KB)  


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Welll.....
Re: Thanks! -- floorkasp Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: mosquitobay Post Reply
10/01/2016, 09:57:29

These little vessels can be difficult. There have been a great many copies made over the last many years. I once heard about an operation is Syria (before the current conflict), that was producing incredible examples using ancient techniques with modern glass. Some were even repaired on purpose.

It would be hard for me to be certain, because I have just not handled enough authentic examples myself (see Roman era perfume bottle lid below). That said, if I were to have to decide one way or the other I would say that yours is not authentic. But, I could easily be wrong, to me the patina is just not right and the colors appear off as well.

But, please seek another opinion, vessels are not really a specialty of mine.

Jan

3950.jpg (106.7 KB)  3950c.jpg (67.6 KB)  


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Thanks!
Re: Welll..... -- mosquitobay Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: floorkasp Post Reply
10/01/2016, 10:31:04

Thanks for your thoughts. I have been looking at some info on the Syrian made fakes. They are very good indeed. Apparently it was just one man or one workshop where all of the good fakes were coming from.

Probably the best thing for me is to take it with me to Tucson, and let some people look at it up close.

Either way, I only paid a price for it that a good fake would cost. So if it is fake, not much is lost and knowledge is gained.



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Re: Welll.....
Re: Welll..... -- mosquitobay Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: ali persia Post Reply
10/01/2016, 12:21:41

Hi floor .thx for your report of istanbul bead bazar.I am sure you could find many nice beads in the shops drives.to me your glass piece seems not real old.I am suspect tp patina and crack also.12 years ago I was in Damascu and I saw many copies of ancient glass beads.some seemed also repaired.but I can never be sure about your piece except you show it to some experts.in iran some put beads in bottom part of water cooler to get patina buy salt and other minerals.but surely there are many ways to make patina.now you are a glass bead artist and surely your guess about that piece is very important.news says all syrian antiques were trafficked to three cities in turkey.hope one day they back again to syrian museums.enjoy fish sandwich in Istanbul beach. All the best Ali



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Thank you
Re: Re: Welll..... -- ali persia Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: floorkasp Post Reply
10/01/2016, 13:30:39

Ali, thank you too.
More opinions certainly help.

Had a look at some of the articles. It does not appear to be a very typical fake, with the thin white patina. You also see that on some pieces made in China. I'm guessing I either have a genuine piece or a pretty good fake. I enjoy puzzles like this that make you dive into a new subject.

My instinct from holding it and watching it closely makes me think it is ancient. However, I realize that that does not really mean very much.

This was not a piece that was treasured by the shop owner. It was just part of a pile of mixed stuff and the initial asking price was $50. Could be that he just got a batch of some fakes somewhere that got mixed in. How a genuine ancient piece could be overlooked......does seem odd.

I visited Syria 9 years ago. Got my first small collectible beads there, including some fakes. After nearly 10 years of collecting, maybe I have come 'full circle'. ;-)



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what do you guys think of these?
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Posted by: ilikebeads Post Reply
09/27/2016, 17:15:35

I am quite sure they're very old but I can't figure out what type of stone they're made of. Any opinions and help is much appreciated

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I began by asking questions just as you have.
Re: what do you guys think of these? -- ilikebeads Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
09/30/2016, 03:11:06

Dear ilikebeads.

You are doing the right thing when asking questions. Collectors have asked me how I learned to identify authentic dZi beads. I learned by intentionally buying the fakes. After a while, the quality of the fakes became more obvious. And it became easier for me to ask better questions. So I think you are doing the right thing when you buy fakes first. You will learn from your mistakes.

I have studied carved Asian beads for more than forty years. And the MCN, Mandarin Court Necklace, is one of my specialties. Like the similar sized ones found in the MCN, yours are inscribed with the long life "Shou" symbol.

I think your inauthentic, tourist/commercial quality beads are late 1970's dyed serpentine -sometimes referred to as "soocho or soochow jade." They are not jadeite. They are not even nephrite. And they are certainly not from a 19th century MCN.

But they were often seen in large quantities at American Gift Shows in the late 20th century. They sold for twenty five to fifty cents each. While many authentic antique Chinese beads have increased in value, yours have become even less desirable because the supply has greatly exceeded the demand.

Sweet Dreams,
Just Fred

P.S. Please try doing Google searches for "soocho jade," the MCN, and the Chinese Shou character.


“The more I read, the more I acquire, the more certain I am that I know nothing.” Voltaire



Modified by Frederick II at Fri, Sep 30, 2016, 06:24:01

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Bicones- Genuine vs Reproduction
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Posted by: kitrescue Post Reply
08/03/2016, 18:06:25

After some discussion with a fellow BF member, I decided to post these photos and gather opinions as to whether the beads in the multi-bead photo are genuine antique Venetian bicones or reproductions. The single bead pictured is genuine, and I'm sure some members have this type of bead in their collections for reference. Thank you for any feedback.

bicones2.jpg (236.4 KB)  biconesreal.jpg (150.6 KB)  


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Re: Bicones- Genuine vs Reproduction
Re: Bicones- Genuine vs Reproduction -- kitrescue Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Ethels beads Post Reply
08/04/2016, 01:13:29

Hello, I was the seller of these beautiful Venetian beads. It is sad that we have got to a stage where there are so many fakes out there that we have come to question everything. These beads were in superb condition,and to my knowledge had never been strung or used before.I know we need to be careful of reproductions, fakes ect but have we become so cynical that we are even suspicious of the most obviously genuine beautiful Venetian beads. I was sad to part with these but needs must, and I am so very glad they went to a lovely new home.



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Synthetic Amber?
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Posted by: beadslearner Post Reply
06/14/2016, 01:40:49

I've been offered lately quite a few of these beads (see pics) which I think are synthetic resin. I've tried to warm them, but they don't melt as plastic would do. The dealer in Nepal keep saying that these beads are made with natural resin... can anyone help me with some information about these beads? Origin? Material?

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Re: Synthetic Amber?
Re: Synthetic Amber? -- beadslearner Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadslearner Post Reply
06/16/2016, 01:00:41

Thank you Rosanna, I have already tried to warm the hole, but it won't burn easily, I've also tried burning the whole bead, but doesn't melt. I just wanted to know if anyone knew about new fakes being made in China with this look.

The thing is that it smells like natural resin, but you also said that chinese are adding pine oil to synthetic resin, and that is what I have suspected.

And I've been offered such a big amount that it is not possible that they are all real amber with this big sizes!



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Owning some dzi beads
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Posted by: Alex8502 Post Reply
04/24/2016, 18:01:16

They was found in Afghanistan near Bamiyan. I currently own them

3_dzi2.jpg (70.9 KB)  1_dzi1.jpg (63.5 KB)  


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Re: Owning some dzi beads
Re: Owning some dzi beads -- Alex8502 Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: bonpo Post Reply
04/25/2016, 20:39:47

lots and lots of diggers are to be found in Afgan-Pak in the remote mountains with metal detectors looking for dzis. needless to say, there are lots of copy and fakes around imported from China, just for beginners and uneducated Investors to jump.

most people in your aria are still not familiar with the dzi markets of the world, and unlike the heirlooming Tibetan culture in which they preserved the knowledge and culture alive, your diz have been long forgotten(possibly to do with the arrival of Islam!?)
dont follow the trend thinking there is jackpot awaiting at the end, unless you know these very well.



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Etched carnelian beads
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Posted by: T Post Reply
04/08/2016, 12:00:01

Hi. I brought these beads from BC Galleries but have now been informed that they are fakes. Could anyone confirm this before I either throw them in the bin or give them away? Thank you for your help.



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New member from DOWNUNDER Welcom Simon
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Posted by: Odan Post Reply
03/18/2016, 18:36:46

Hey everyone. I just learned that we have a new member from DownUnder.
I always tell people who stop by my ebay store about the forum and joining up.
Well...Simon from Australia has joined the forum.
I don't know if he's just been lurking or has made a post yet but I just wanted to say welcome to Simon
Me and Simon have been having probs with ebay and Global Shipping so we're taking our biz to the classifieds.
It's always nice to get another point of view here at the forum.
WELCOME, WELCOME WELCOM Simon



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Re: Nice bead
Re: Nice bead -- lopacki Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Simon Post Reply
03/24/2016, 02:14:33

Wow another stunner Danny! I have never had the opportunity to see these large biconical Indus types in the flesh. One day maybe.
This photo is of my favourite bead, I was in the mountains of Northern India near the border with Tibet. Each day I'd have lunch and a local tea shop run by a very nice Tibetan lady. The tastiest momos I ever had...
I noticed her Choong dZi and complimented her on it. She had two long multi strand freshwater pearl necklaces broken with turquoise and coral. The centre piece on one was a large gold pendant ad the other was this bead. She told me that while she liked the dZi she wanted another gold pendant. As it happened I had some 24k gold with me... back in those days taking gold was better than cash and you could turn a profit because of the hefty import duties. I told her this and she offered to trade her dZi for a tola of gold(10 grams). The next day I brought the gold with me and her husband and I walked to town, there we visited a goldsmith who tested the gold with acid. He proclaimed it pure. The dZi came into my possession right then and there.
The lady told me that her mother gave it to her and it had come from many generations of her grandmothers. I felt bad taking it so I went back every day for a couple of weeks and offered to swap it back. But she was very happy with the deal.
I often wear this bead. It has been very helpful to me and almost medicinal. There has been some very difficult times in life when this beads presence has helped me to stay balanced.... my troubles seem trivial when I think of all the owners who have had this bead. All their troubles now amount to nothing....and one day all mine will amount to no more than that. This bead continues its journey through the centuries, I am just a temporary custodian in a long line stretching back and forward through time for thousands of years.

IMG_7412.jpg (202.7 KB)  


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Re: Re: Nice bead
Re: Re: Nice bead -- Simon Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Simon Post Reply
03/24/2016, 02:31:24

Another lot of beads and another story. In the Mid nineties I worked in the gem cutting industry in the city of Jaipur. My friend knew I liked old beads so he introduced me to a rickshaw driver who had a string of them to sell. Well I figured fakes or a scam.....rickshaw drivers are dodgy the world over...often nice, interesting and funny people but dodgy.
Any way I was told to wait in front of the Palace of the Winds just down Johari Bazaar from where we had our workshop. Half an hour later he returned with a string of genuine Bhaisajyaguru beads. It cost me just under $200 us for 50+ beads. My girlfriend was appalled and convinced I'd been duped. She had no idea about ancient beads and I might as well have swapped our last item of value for a handful of magic beans. I told her that one day she would see I was right.....twenty years have passed. We are now married with a couple of kids.

50 Bhaisajyaguru beads for under $200, a bargain. Being able to say "I told you so"......priceless!

IMG_7401.jpg (219.6 KB)  


Modified by Simon at Thu, Mar 24, 2016, 02:32:20

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Dzi beads
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Posted by: Maruta Post Reply
03/15/2016, 12:55:39

I would like to know if any of these look like genuine dzi beads, and approximate values. Thank you

dzi5388_1025909984146786_321056217912652588_n.jpg (65.2 KB)  


Modified by Maruta at Wed, Mar 16, 2016, 07:05:20

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Dzi beads
Re: Re: Re: Re: Dzi beads -- Simon Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Maruta Post Reply
03/18/2016, 07:37:07

I really appreciate your information. I have a business partner in Gilgit Baltistan, Pakistan. He was approached by one of his associates with the offer.
I have been searching online for people who sell them in the US, but haven't gotten a lot of replies. we may end up selling them ourselves on ebay, If we don't find anyone else to buy them.



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Swat beads
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dzi beads -- Maruta Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: TASART Post Reply
03/18/2016, 08:57:33

There are hoards of these types available in Pakistan, with the majority of the "etched" agates being new fakes, some of the fakes are made very nicely and will fool most people.



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Re: Swat beads
Re: Swat beads -- TASART Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Simon Post Reply
03/18/2016, 17:42:28

Definitly I agree that there are some very good fakes around. Often the closer you get to the source the better the quality of the fakes that turn up. Quite a few of the flat carnelian beads look suspicious to me but I think it is at least worth finding out more about what is there. Only clearer pictures can give a better idea but I'd look closely at the three top rows. There is such a large range of styles in the beads shown and most are distinctly types that originate from the Swat area. It would be difficult to fake so many different types and find the range of specific raw material that have been used. Several of the beads are broken and badly damaged which is uncommon, but not unheard of with reproductions....after all a good forger always adds some defects. But anyway going by what I see and the experience I have with collecting ancient agate beads in that region I'd say that it worth investigating further what is there.



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Duck bead - just because - attn Will
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Posted by: lindabd Post Reply
03/13/2016, 08:36:01

After combing through earlier posts it occurred to me that this might be of particular interest to Will as the Balinese duck is readily identifiable is this bead - tuft and all.
I purchased it in a little shop on the Sheik Zayed road in Dubai in about 2006. The Iranian proprietor had only one bead - this one! Quite busted up, but a cool bead nonetheless.
I don't know if it is authentic, but the cane is remarkable and very economically applied.

IMG_9993.JPG (167.2 KB)  IMG_9992.JPG (158.1 KB)  


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Re: Duck bead - just because - attn Will
Re: Duck bead - just because - attn Will -- lindabd Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Will Post Reply
03/13/2016, 12:29:43

Hi Linda,

It's interesting and cute. Thanks for posting it.

I'm pretty sure that it's a fake, especially when I look at the area around the perforation, which doesn't look at all like an authentic Jatim to me. But it's so beaten up it's a little difficult to be certain. Many of the fakes made in the late 90s and early 00s would blow up spontaneously because they were so poorly annealed, and when I spent several weeks a couple of years ago driving round to villages near Jember, I was sometimes shown broken fakes by innocent-seeming folk who possibly did think they were fragments of authentic beads.

In addition to the perforation, the bird canes in yours don't look right to me either. They're better than most of the fakes I've seen but the reddish brown areas seem very arbitrary (those red lines on the white feathers, for instance), whereas in the very rare originals red is used specifically to represent the beaks and legs only.

For comparison, I'll attach an image I've shown before; it's of Korean National Treasure 634, a Jatim that was excavated from a royal tomb dated to around the year 500. What do you think?

All the best,

Will

2_NT634.jpg (74.7 KB)  


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question about "neolithic" african beads
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Posted by: Stefany Post Reply
02/22/2016, 07:44:49

the roughly knapped and pecked agate and quartz beads of W. Africa are often described as "Neolithic", and those tiny unglazed pottery segmented tubular beads.
What do we really know about their age??

IMG_2488.JPG (183.7 KB)  


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Re: But how about the jasper beads from Ilorin?
Re: But how about the jasper beads from Ilorin? -- ShuD Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Stefany Post Reply
02/23/2016, 07:21:37

please would you like to show and/or explain?



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An old Hausa "pecker"...
Re: Re: But how about the jasper beads from Ilorin? -- Stefany Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: ShuD Post Reply
02/24/2016, 09:30:20

was photographed and interviewed at Ilorin in 1998. Metal (iron or steel) peckers were collected. Witnessed a polishing demonstration. Also at Ilorin, three old powder glass workers were interviewed with a demonstration. The jasper or "lantana" beads are common and you no doubt have some. It's an ancient industry, probably Hausa using material from the Northern Nigeria area.

There's an old article in "MAN" titled "Stone Beads from Ilorin", I think (ask Beadman). Also, a hint that the same work went on at Bida, although Etsu Nupe was not aware of it.

What does the literature say about pecking? Can you do it without metal tools? I would think the conical perfs are bow drilled. Visit the experts on these techniques. Meanwhile, some of the "neolithic" stuff would appear to be Cambay or some such. "Neolithic" is another standard marketing term to add flavor to value when selling.

The clay stuff? Always suspicious. JP used to say, at least, they're not new. They're pretty clean, intact, and uniform to have been dug up in these quantities. There's the other theory that they're made from powdered shards of old pottery, hence the "ancient" dating of these beads. It's been done with new pottery fakes.

Can you peck hard stone with deer antlers or some such?



Modified by ShuD at Wed, Feb 24, 2016, 09:50:20

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How long have you been collecting and/or buying and selling beads?
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Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
02/16/2016, 08:41:36

I just thought it would be interesting for some of us to know a little more about each other.
Originally this post was titled: "Are you now or have you ever been: a bead dealer?"
But, I felt this may be off putting to some. So I changed it a little…
So, please tell us a little about your history with beads.

Just Fred



Modified by Frederick II at Thu, Feb 18, 2016, 12:00:58

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I don't really consider myself a bead collector...
Re: How long have you been collecting and/or buying and selling beads? -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: jrj Post Reply
02/21/2016, 02:26:24

I don't really consider myself a bead collector, but Fred asked me to post so here goes. A friend gave me a Peking glass drop about 20+ years ago and I've been smitten by Peking glass drops and beads ever since. In the last 20+ years, I've acquired a few (a very few) beads of various types until I came across a lot of Peking glass drops at an estate sale in about 2013 and another lot of Peaking glass tabular beads at a later sale. I started reading about Mandarin Court Necklaces here and elsewhere (and was confounded by the fakes). Needing to iron out the inconsistencies in what I read and saw here (some early posts at BCN are misleading), I pressed Fred and he explained. I find their (MCN) beads compelling, but not generally in my price range of late. I love reading about collectible beads here, but my own "collection" (if I can call it that) falls far short of "collectible" and the collections I see discussed here.



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African Copal Amber Ceremonial Piece?
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Posted by: Dawnese Post Reply
02/17/2016, 21:44:23

I have acquired a piece that is, I believe, an African ceremonial piece composed of copal amber beads with large silver beads on the ends. (See photos, in replies below.)

It weighs 764 grams (including the silver). There are 36 graduated amber beads, measuring from 10.5cm-14cm in circumference.

I have been told by a Nigerian woman that she believes that they are Nigerian, but I do not know anything more about the provenance of the piece.



Modified by Dawnese at Thu, Feb 18, 2016, 16:26:04

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India / Nepal / Tibet style?
Re: a photo, finally -- Dawnese Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
02/18/2016, 21:36:41

Dawn,
Here's my best guess (and others please jump in!) - this looks like a fairly new necklace from India, Nepal, or Tibet. There is no such thing as "copal amber" - the term is loosely applied to various plastic beads that are made as amber substitutes. Without inspecting them in person, my best guess is that these are plastic beads of fairly recent manufacture.

Since the stringing is loose, if the holes are fairly large you can try the "reamer" test to check the composition of the amber colored beads, without unstringing the necklace. Take a thin diamond grit reamer and ream inside the hole on one of the beads, being careful not to cut the string. After you ream enough to generate some sawdust, pull the reamer out and sniff the dust. My guess is that you'll get a strong plastic-y smell. Real amber will smell like pine sap. Bakelite (phenolic resin) will smell like formaldehyde (strong musty odor). If you need to figure out what most plastics will smell like, just do some reaming of various plastic bottles and containers you are tossing out or recycling.



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concerning Copal
Re: India / Nepal / Tibet style? -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Stefany Post Reply
02/19/2016, 09:39:34

Copal is tree resin that hasn't yet completely become fossilised- its a traditional ingredient of varnish because its still soluble in spirits such as turpentine. it could be ancient but not nearly as old as Amber itself.
however lumps of it are carved into beads - and the main visible difference between the Copal resin and Amber beads in my collection is that the copal ones have a slightly flaky surface- which can be improved with a little oil.
when i get home to my main computer i might find an image to show.

the name copal is often mistakenly applied to anything that doesn't pass the other Amber tests, but much of that could also be acrylic, plastic or synthetic resin or various other materials.

i don't think of such items as fakes but rather as "Tributes".



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So beautiful and yet… bead thoughts??
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Posted by: lindabd Post Reply
02/12/2016, 15:34:23

I purchased these in Bali around 1993.
They were sold to me as ancient beads from Java, but they don't look like anything else I've seen, really anywhere. There are thirty of them, very regular in size and shape, hole a bit bigger at one end
There is a broken one in the photo in case that helps.
Incredible aquamarine color - they look like the earth from space.

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Yes, definitely authentic
Re: So beautiful and yet… bead thoughts?? -- lindabd Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Will Post Reply
02/13/2016, 12:21:17

Just to add to what Shinji and Hans have said, the structure of the beads makes it clear. If they were fakes they would almost certainly have been wound (or occasionally lapidary worked from bottle glass). Like almost all of the monochrome blue and green beads that were manufactured (like these) between the 5th and 8th centuries in East Java, these are made from rolled pads that were worked while still hot into the required shape. Sometimes they may look as though they're wound because the flow lines of the glass can frequently be lateral as well as lengthwise (see the hexagonal blue bicones that I'll attach). Also, unlike Islamic beads where the junction between the two ends of the pad is frequently apparent, in these Jatim beads the joint is generally hidden by the subsequent shaping.

I like these devitrified beads a lot, too, Linda. Frequently they are polished after they've been dug up, and that's fine also. The majority of excavated Jatim beads show substantial signs of devitrification, probably because of the volcanic soils in which they were buried, and also perhaps because of flaws in the production process (too rapid cooling?). This condition is imitated, as Fred says, by acid treatments, though it's still generally possible to distinguish the difference.

Incidentally, Fred, I don't think there's any likelihood that this would have been Egyptian glass. After all, blue glass, in a wide variety of shades, was manufactured in huge quantities from the 3rd or 4th centuries BCE at numerous Indo-Pacific glass- and bead-making sites in South and Southeast Asia. And as for Egyptian glass being used as ballast in trading ships, I know of no evidence for that at all. There were much cheaper options obviously, and in any case most of the vessels that plied the Southeast Asian trade routes were able to sail with full cargoes from one port to the next, as we know from the many shipwrecks that have been discovered.

Lastly, let's make it clear again that there was no substantial glass-bead making industry in Java in Majapahit times. Majapahit jewellery, as we see from the sculpture of the period, was primarily metal-based (gold, silver, bronze), sometimes with the addition of semi-precious stones (carnelian, other forms of agate, and rock crystal).

Best wishes,

Will

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Bead ID please
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Posted by: lindabd Post Reply
01/12/2016, 06:51:40

Hello everyone,
What a great site!
I've been interested in beads for many years - mainly focused on glass beads of all kinds - but a recent trip to a Goodwill store turned this up.
I'm convinced that it is an ancient bead, though I've read somewhere that Pema raka beads are not.
It is so beautiful I can't quite believe it.
Help?
Many thanks

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I don't think LD's bead should be labeled a reproduction.
Re: Re: the hole is not as it should if ancient -- lindabd Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: jake Post Reply
01/14/2016, 15:48:09

Here is a nice example of an ancient mellon Pema Rakta with a square edged perforation.

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www.nomadbeads.com

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Re: I don't think LD's bead should be labeled a reproduction.
Re: I don't think LD's bead should be labeled a reproduction. -- jake Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Odan Post Reply
01/15/2016, 08:39:50

Again...we seem to judge an ancient bead by the ware at the perforations.
Not all beads have been worn for centuries. Not all beads have signs of chord sawing.
I've seen plenty of fake marks on beads and usually there are many of these crescent marks on the fakes. They are made by passing the bead through a steel roller. These machines will make dozens of these marks on the surface of the bead, not just a few like the bead in question.
As for chord sawing....This happens when a bead is lucky enough to have been worn for hundreds of years. Not all beads are this lucky.
Even on informational sites like dzibeads.co.uk and ancientbead.com discuss and show examples of ancient beads without chord sawing or surface marks.
There were more beads made then just the few we have been able to collect. Many....Never survive more then a few months before they are lost one way or another.
Many beads were purchased just for a burial and are never worn by anyone living.
Looking down inside the perf's of this bead shows a very clean and smooth channel where as fakes generally have drilling dust imbedded in the channel.
It really comes down to trust and honesty of the seller.
Finding a trust worthy dealer is the key to getting great beads.
So don't rely solely on chord ware or dings on the surface.



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There are clear definitions and exceptions to every rule.
Re: Bead ID please -- lindabd Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
01/15/2016, 11:57:30

Our debate is what connoisseurship is all about.

And having a bead in your hands does help. Some people have recommended buying examples of known fakes for comparison purposes; this is a good idea. But I don't like having fake beads around me. Besides, a collection of fake examples could easily cost at least one thousand dollars. Ten to thirty dollars at a time can add up quickly.

I just buy what I like. And if it turns out to be honestly represented I feel lucky. Sometimes you never really know. Sometimes you can only offer your professional opinion.



Modified by Frederick II at Sat, Jan 16, 2016, 01:32:53

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Good or bad taste: that is the question.
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Posted by: nishedha Post Reply
01/12/2016, 03:38:08

Our peerless Frederick II has recently made a comment related to this issue. It seems to me at once of import and amusing.
Feeling playful, I am submitting pics of a couple of projects, asking my fellow Forumites to decide whether thay are examples of bad or good taste.

The first one is a bracelet made of spherical beads of rodhocrosite from Argentina vaguely reminiscent of boiled ham -- aren't they? -- strung on silicon, with 1,65 cm long gilded silver drum shaped beads.

The second, still at an early stage, will (would?) be a pendant made of a salvaged antique carved MOP Chinese element -- its size: 9,5 cm x 6,7 cm x 1,2 cm. The pencil drawing points to a frame of (perhaps gilded) silver scrolls, inset with mother of pearl.

Now the formal question: how good or bad taste are they?

PS.-One of my old-time friends, a French New-Ager I met in Marrakesh in 1970 (if I rightly remember) almost insulted me yesterday evening, after he saw the second project displayed on my workshop's table top.

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Modified by nishedha at Tue, Jan 12, 2016, 03:49:17

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Learn the rules of good taste: so that you know how to break them.
Re: Good or bad taste: that is the question. -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
01/12/2016, 13:48:52

1_MOP1.jpg (53.8 KB)  


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a wise rule by its own right.
Re: Learn the rules of good taste: so that you know how to break them. -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: nishedha Post Reply
01/13/2016, 07:04:45

And clear as diamonds, when facing an excellent example (as your necklace). Still...
When forced to discriminate between genuine and fake, we realize that although many fakes mimic their genuine models so well they even the experts are deceived, the genuine pieces do not look like fakes at all.
Concerning products of activities officially aknowledged as artistry sometimes just plain bad taste (good taste does not exist, but bad taste does) is used as a substitute for real creativity, and commercially uphold so-called artists are listed as geniuses by lobbies. Then trust in our own capacity of discrimination may betray us, and we may consequently comply: "Such a degree of celebrated ugliness must be great art".
If I had to answer what good taste essentially is in my opinion, I would create the category out of thin air and say: restraint.



Modified by nishedha at Wed, Jan 13, 2016, 09:43:31

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TOO NICE TO THROW AWAY!
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Posted by: lopacki Post Reply
12/04/2015, 12:58:14


Here is a handful of some of the beads we will have at Tucson this year. These beads are Bactrian that are 3 to 4 thousand years old this selection shows some super beads with beautiful patterns.

If you are use face book join the group "The Lopacki Collection" we have a selection of many of the items we will bring to the show.

Hope you enjoy
All my best ........ Danny

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aged patina
Re: Re: Re: probably not -- lopacki Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Judy Post Reply
12/06/2015, 08:56:12

My feeling is that beads that have been worn over a long period of time, will reflect that in the condition of the surface and the wear of the perforation. However, beads that have been buried for thousands of years and have not been worn much will have an 'newer' appearance. I have seen this in trade beads and ancient stone beads. Also beads that have only been worn for important ceremonies will not show a worn surface. It's not a simple thing. Personally I have to have the beads in my hands before I can form an opinion.



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Re: aged patina
Re: aged patina -- Judy Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Odan Post Reply
12/06/2015, 16:51:24

I see this all the time. If a bead has no ware or a super smooth patina from being worn for centuries people think they are fakes. I think it shows a lack of knowledge of beads when someone sees no ware and says new...repo...etc.
It is best to see them in hand but that is still not a criteria for dating beads. \
As was stated...some beads didn't get a super cool cord sawing or lots of body sweat.
Kamol told me years ago he has problems with lots of collectors when it comes to ancient stones, that many buyers will just look once and say these aren't ancient.
That's why when I sell beads I have to photograph the perf's and even then I get 90% of people say the beads aren't ancient due to lack of ware at the perforations.
So many of these beads were only worn for special occasions and very little ware is present on these beads.
Many times these beads were stashed. and traded for other useful items.
Some day there will be a cool way to date beads...maybe a hot pin inside the perf and if it smells like dirt its real ???
Who knows what the answer is {:o



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Jatim Bead???
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Posted by: Beadstore.com Post Reply
11/21/2015, 14:18:30

I know everyone loves to say that it's impossible to tell the new Jatim beads from the old ones, but I thought I'd post this one anyway! Came from an estate sale of a someone with a reasonably good bead collection -- but of course, that's hardly dispositive. Any thoughts? Any which way, it's an awfully cool bead!

Abe @ Beadstore.com

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Jatim Bead - questions
Re: Jatim Bead??? -- Beadstore.com Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Will Post Reply
11/21/2015, 22:30:34

Oh dear, I hate saying this, but I’m really doubtful about this bead. I hope I’m wrong, because it’s a very impressive bead, and I easily could be. In general, I think it’s possible to distinguish fake Jatims from genuine beads at least 90% of the time, by looking separately at each element in the total picture. But the downside of that is that beads that don’t meet one’s standard criteria may be discarded by mistake, and maybe that is what I’m doing now. Having said that, here are the problems that I have with this particular bead:


1. the form - this high/square-shouldered shape is unusual (but there are lots of variants so this is not decisive);

2. the surface - generally, there are very few beads where the surface is as uniformly smooth as this (the big exception is with some of the beads that were dug up in the early 90s and sanded or polished to “improve” their looks, but in that case you can almost always see signs of the polishing process with a loupe or microscope);

3. the colours - if the photo is accurate, the red seems slightly more red and the yellow more orangey than I would think is normal. This may be within the range of variations that is to be expected with glass that sometimes came from different sources, but in general all of the fake canes with these red and yellow colours that I have seen are similar (NB illustrations in books tend to be misleading, I find, because they exaggerate the red - perhaps the fakes are copying them!);

4. the arrangement of the canes - it seems to me that the bead-maker has tried deliberately to make the bead look imperfect, for instance, in the lower part of the bead in your third photo where there are more broken sections of cane than I’ve seen in any authentic bead of this type;

5. the green/yellow/red cane slice that has been inserted in the side of the bead shown in that third image - this is an unusual practice and the cane itself, particularly the green, is uncommon too (perhaps the maker put it there as a kind of signature, or a deliberate mistake to mock the collector who buys it - I’ve seen this quite often with the people who make fake ceramics and bronzes);

6. the white glass that appears in the gaps between the cane slices in the third picture - this effect is sometimes seen in Jatims where the core of the bead is incompletely covered, but white cores are extremely rare.

So there we have it. I have quite a few authentic Jatims with this basic cane pattern. I’ll attach a photo of one that is biconical.

All the best,

Will

Will:Jatim:144s.jpg (59.3 KB)  


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Oops!
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Posted by: nishedha Post Reply
11/13/2015, 10:25:27



Modified by nishedha at Fri, Nov 13, 2015, 10:26:11

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real or fake, this is the question
Re: Feather, but what else? -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: nishedha Post Reply
11/13/2015, 10:39:09

41,6 x 20,4 mm

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Fake, I'm afraid
Re: real or fake, this is the question -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Will Post Reply
11/14/2015, 10:18:00

Hi Nishedha,

Where did you get this bead? It would be helpful to trace it back a bit. The reason I'm asking is that I bought a very similar bead (attached) three years ago from a farmer in a village south of Jember in East Java. I was trying to find out more about the conditions in which Jatim beads were dug up locally; we know so little about the culture that produced them in the sixth century, and there has been virtually no archaeology done on the sites where they are found.

I bought this bead knowing that it wasn't a genuine Jatim, with perhaps a slight hope that it might be one of the West Asian beads that are occasionally found in Indonesia, but not really expecting very much. Later I wrote to Jamey as follows:

"Lots of delightful people, great food, some fragments of information about burial sites and their contents, a few good beads and plenty of fakes, even in quite remote villages. Among them a couple of examples you might be interested in seeing. I'm really puzzled by the red, white and black bead, because I haven't seen anything like it of any age in that part of the world. It seems to have been fabricated in a Jatim-like way [this was incorrect], but then there is none of the typical elongation of the pattern towards the perforation, so... what is it?"

Jamey wrote back (I hope he won't mind my quoting him) helping to clarify my thoughts -as he always does. He explained that the bead resembled the quite rare Middle Eastern beads that usually have a yellow applied ring at one or both ends:

"the ME beads are wound, trailed, and combed into zigzags.  But (and this is so weird and unexpected), the Javanese bead is structured as a Fustat fused-rod bead.  Spiraled canes (both S-twist and Z-twist) have been longitudinally applied to the base, and their fusion makes inconsistent zigzags--such as we see in so-called "morfia" beads from Mauritania (but made at Fustat).  I don't think I have seen this bead from Java--particularly not in these colors, copying a ME bead."

I think Jamey's description points out how technologically adept and experimental the people who make fake beads in east Java actually are.

Since then, when I've been back there I've kept my eyes open for a similar bead, because, after all, when people make fakes they usually make more than one. But in several trips I have never seen another one - until this bead that you are asking about, which is not the same shape but clearly by the same maker.

I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news. I think your previous bead, the one you call "feathered", is also probably a fake. Is it from the same seller?

All the best,

Will

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Warring States Beads
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Posted by: floorkasp Post Reply
10/21/2015, 05:11:47

Inspired by Kika's beautiful Warring States beads, I realized I still had a collection of images from last years' exhibit if Warring States beads in the Shanghai Museum.

The images are a mix of a full slideshow that they showed and some other pictures of the beads in the exhibit. As is often the case in museums, the pictures are not always done in the best circumstances.

There are a total of 76 pictures, which is a bit much to post here. Anyone interested, send me a private message with your email and I'l send you a PDF file.

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Re: Kika's bead - looks authentic to me
Re: Warring States Beads -- floorkasp Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Will Post Reply
10/22/2015, 20:03:59

I’m very hesitant about disagreeing with Fred because I know how good he is at sniffing out fakes (and at much else besides, of course). But I had a little time this afternoon and found myself looking at the pics of this bead several times before making up my mind. That’s to say - as much as it ever makes itself up!

One of the problems is that most of us have very little experience with Warring States glass beads - as opposed to the ones with composite or clay cores which are much more common. Personally, I’ve only had the chance to handle them a few times, mainly in museums wearing cotton gloves. But I do know the acid-finished fakes of East Java intimately, and as I looked at Kika’s photos closely, her bead seemed substantially different. The wear at individual spots - the white of the heart-shaped leaves, the concentric lines at the ends with the indentation at the top of the bead on the left side of the first photo, the rims of the air bubbles and the crack lines - all of this looks absolutely typical to me.

It’s worth checking the beads that Pipane showed on this forum several years ago; the surfaces of several of them are quite similar. And when we compare it to the hundred odd pages of Warring States beads in Simon Kwan’s Early Chinese Glass, we can see that the kind of dull, even surface on Kika’s bead is absolutely typical of the wear on most very good Warring States glass.

Also I checked out a few Chinese online sites. Ali Baba and Ali Express, for instance, have a lot of fake Warring States beads listed, frequently at high prices, but none of the ones that I found had anything like the quality of Kika’s.

It all adds up. I could be wrong. I often am. I think I would be sure immediately if I had it between my fingers.

Incidentally, I think the heart motif is probably more probably a leaf. It could be both, of course, but I don’t know of heart symbolism in China anything like as early as this. There are two almost identical beads on page 179 of Kwan’s book (though they’re not in as good condtion). Kwan describes the leaves as a persimmon calyx, which they certainly resemble. For the last thousand years or so (and possibly before) the persimmon has been a symbol of happiness in Chinese art.

There it is. I’ll attach a photo of the most beautiful Warring States bead I’ve actually touched - or rather, it touched me when I got the chance to examine it in Japan. They really are amazing beads; I’ve always marveled at the Phoenician stratified eye beads which preceded these, but the Warring States beads at their best outdo them in their brilliant precision.

Cheers,

Will

Will:WarringState63b_(1).jpg (24.2 KB)  


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Re: "looks authentic to me"
Re: Re: Kika's bead - looks authentic to me -- Will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
10/23/2015, 02:16:44

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My two favorite articles about "experts" and the Chinese antiques market
Re: Re: "looks authentic to me" -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
10/23/2015, 09:52:25

The Antiques Hustle

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ZyhgsHNNuf8J:www.theworldofchinese.com/2014/08/the-antiques-hustle/+&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

I liked the part where the peasants were out-foxing the scientific dating tests by grinding up ancient clay bricks to use in the fake clay figurines.

Yang Boda scandal

Along with four other experts, Yang Boda, former deputy curator of the Palace Museum in Beijing, determined that two items of jade clothing sewn with gold threads were authentic antiques and slapped a price tag of 2.4 billion yuan ($376 million) on them.
The two items were later found to be fakes.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/opinion/2011-09/13/content_13670774.htm

A sub-theme in these articles is that the "experts" will never, ever admit that they were mistaken.

Another sub-theme is the prevalence of fakes in Chinese museums.

Phishing for Phools explores our weakness for a good story, and how the predatory exploit that.


Related link: http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ZyhgsHNNuf8J:www.theworldofchinese.com/2014/08/the-antiques-hustle/+&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

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Re: Warring States Beads - reasons for disagreement
Re: Warring States Beads -- floorkasp Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Will Post Reply
10/24/2015, 14:09:22


Hi Fred, hi everyone,

I agree completely with Fred. It’s natural to disagree about ancient beads and these disagreements help us to figure out the reasoning that underlies our own spontaneous judgements. So when I saw Fred’s notes on Kika’s photograph, I thought, “I need to think about this some more.” I didn’t have time till this afternoon when I sat down again with Kwan’s book on Ancient Chinese Glass and went through the pictures of more than a hundred eye beads in some detail. Here, for now, are my conclusions. I’ll take each of Fred’s points and note my responses.

1 “Overall surface texture much too even.” In fact, among Kwan’s glass beads a matte even surface is the norm. Of all the glass eye beads 31 out of 42 have a surface that is flat and even rather than shiny. I didn’t count the few that were damaged. This surprised me because I think of these beads essentially as being bright, as they obviously once were, but actually one of the consistent signs of age is the kind of surface that Fred complains about. Most of the pottery-cored eye beads are similar, and so are almost all the non-bead eye artefacts (plaques, inlays, etc).

2. “Thin application of decoration.” Fred is partially right here as far as the white bands are concerned. The white has retained its form less than in most beads in Kwan’s collection, but the difference may possibly be explained by varying soil conditions. Still, it’s definitely worth noting. This is the only one of Fred’s points that I would go along with wholeheartedly.

3. “Dots should be uniform and filling drilled holes.” In fact, this is quite incorrect. First of all the holes are not “drilled”; they are of course created by the drops of glass as they are applied to the core cylinder. And they are seldom uniform in size, presumably because of the difficulty in controlling exactly the quantity of glass. In Kwan’s book only 6 out of 21 beads with this kind of decoration have dots that could be described as being more or less uniform; all the others vary widely in size. I’ll attach a photo of a bead that has lost its dots (as most do) that is in the collection of the Royal Ontario Museum in Toronto. It’s a bead I’ve been able to examine closely; it was added to the collection in the early twentieth century. As you can see there’s no uniformity in these holes, andthey certainly weren’t drilled.

4. “Patina lacking in recessed areas.” This is a subjective judgement. To my eye, these areas where the glass decoration has worn away look exactly as they should. I have several of the pottery-cored glass eye beads and the areas of wear look exactly like this.

5. “These (central) lines should be perfectly centred.” No, they shouldn’t, and they’re not in most (70%) of the beads that have these central bands in Kwan’s book. These beads are very carefully made, but their geometry is not perfect - nor need it be.


6 “Peculiar white, red and black combination (of colours).” Here again, Fred may be partially right. This actual combination of colours is unusual, but each does occur frequently in Warring States beads. However, I haven’t yet come across an example of these tubular beads that has the small dot decoration in this reddish brown colour; they are generally white on the glass beads, though the dots of the eyes on the pottery-cored beads are various colours - blue, brown or yellow. How to weight this in the overall picture is a matter of personal judgement. For some it may be decisive; for me, because I think the bead is authentic, it can easily be explained by beadmakers playing with the available resources and trying out new arrangements of the patterns - which obviously happened constantly in this period of intense experimentation.

Incidentally, I ought to point out that it’s quite difficult to know what the original colours of these Warring States beads sometimes were. I think the core tube was almost certainly a strong blue, but the red dots might have actually been a shade of purple that was common in monochrome glass at the time. I’ll attach an ear ornament of mine (slightly later, Han dynasty) that was accidentally broken; the dull weathered surface opened up to reveal a beautiful bright purple.

So there we have it, more kindling for the disagreement. Whatever the conclusion, it’s great to have a chance to talk about these wonderful beads.

All the best,

Will

Will:ROM:WS21.jpg (92.9 KB)  Will:Han:CH1.79a.jpg (53.9 KB)  


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Follow-up - decorated cylinder beads that "Beadman" liked
Re: Re: Warring States Beads - reasons for disagreement -- Will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Will Post Reply
10/24/2015, 14:44:06

In searching back through old photos, I came on a thread on the forum several years ago where Pipane posted a large number of Warring States beads. At the end of the thread, there's a comment from Beadman: “All very nice beads. An excellent collection!” Here are the two cylinder beads in the group.

Pipane is the nom-de-plume of a French collector and businessman who lives in Beijing and who used to write on this forum. He speaks Chinese, Japanese and other Asian languages, and he's done more than most westerners to sort out the characteristics of authentic ancient jade and glass artefacts from all the fakes that fill the markets in China. It's a difficult task. He could help us now. Where are you, Stéphane, now that we need you?

W

Pipane:3.jpg (59.3 KB)  Pipane:8.jpg (76.8 KB)  


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Small correction on glass etching
Re: Thank you for looking carefully. Moreover, I appreciate your diplomacy, Will. -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
10/24/2015, 17:55:07

Glass can be etched with hydrofluoric acid (HF), not hydrochloric. While both acids are very dangerous, hydrofluoric is EXTREMELY corrosive to organic matter such as human flesh and will cause horrid burns that may never heal. I had to use HF a few times in my career since it was the only way to etch some very inert plastics, and I was not happy about having to do the work.

Etching creams that contain sulfuric acid, sodium bifluoride, and ammonium bifluoride are sold and are "apparently safer". I would not go near this compound either, even with gloves that are rated for acids and a lot of other protective equipment. I'm sure glass etching can be done safely once the proper equipment is set up, but this has to be done with a lot of thoughtful preparation.

Fred, it must have been rather "thrilling" to see someone doing acid etching. Wondering why sand-blasting or tumbling wasn't used instead...



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The results I witnessed seemed to vary depending upon the glass used and time in the acid bath.
Re: Small correction on glass etching -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
10/25/2015, 01:36:23

I have witnessed copyists unashamedly applying antique finishes to their products on Cat Street in Hong Kong and in The Panjiayuan market in Beijing. There are shops in Curio City which clearly offer fakes for resale. This is no secret. It is as though the word "antique" and "ancient" is a contraction for "antique style" or "ancient style."

But hydrofluoric acid, as Rosanna mentions, needs to be in a controlled environment. And I have heard horror stories from those who buy and sell it.

Just Fred



Modified by Frederick II at Sun, Oct 25, 2015, 01:59:59

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Re: Warring States Beads
Re: Warring States Beads -- floorkasp Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Austin Cooper Post Reply
10/28/2015, 17:49:20

A few small examples in my collection. Don't know if they are real or fakes.
ac

Mvc-001f.jpg (29.4 KB)  Mvc-003f.jpg (29.6 KB)  


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Bangkok! Ancient beads? New beads where to buy?
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Posted by: hopemagnificent Post Reply
10/15/2015, 10:27:17

Hi All

I am trying to find places in Bangkok where I can find ancient agates, Pyu beads etc as well as new gates such as Luk mik agate flat beads as well as suleimani agates.. Can any of you suggest markets or places in the city or dealers shops that you might know of, it would be great help. I am only there two days after visiting Phuket and I am dying to get my hand on some decent beads.

Thank you in advance

Umit



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Beads in Bangkok (the long answer - sorry!)
Re: Bangkok! Ancient beads? New beads where to buy? -- hopemagnificent Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Will Post Reply
10/18/2015, 16:48:04

Hi Umit,

Sorry to be so slow responding to your request. I wanted to write this last week but didn’t get the chance to do so. Perhaps some of the info will still be useful.

You say you’re interested in new and ancient beads, and Bangkok is full of new beads in street markets and luxury shopping malls. Some of them are very ingenious and you can choose your own price point.

But as far as ancient beads are concerned, I wouldn't suggest going there in the expectation of finding bargains any longer. I live quite near the city for four or five months each year, and twenty years ago I would have said that it was a great place for bead collectors, or indeed for anyone collecting Asian antiquities generally. But since then, for a variety of different reasons, there has been a substantial downturn in the market. There’s a variety of reasons for that: (1) the unauthorized excavation sites on the Burmese border have been worked out; (2) the same thing has happened with ancient sites on the Cambodian border and inside Cambodia; (3) the Pakistani dealers who brought a lot of Indus Valley beads to Thailand have for the most part moved their operations to Singapore and Malaysia, and in any case they have less that is interesting to sell; (4) the huge increase in the number of Chinese dealers and collectors looking for ancient and pseudo-ancient stone beads has cleaned out large sections of the market.

Of course, there are still valuable and exciting ancient beads to be found. In a country that was as densely settled as Thailand was in ancient times, new sites are constantly being discovered. But most of the beads that are dug up are no longer readily available to tourists. The number of Thai bead collectors has increased substantially in the last ten years, and the few dealers who have authentic beads have regular customers who are lining up for whatever they find. In particular, you say you're looking for "Pyu" beads and Suleimanis, but these are precisely the areas where worldwide prices at present are enormously inflated because of an almost hysterical Chinese demand. As a result most of what you will find in Bangkok, as in other countries and on eBay also, is likely to be recent production presented as ancient.

Having said all that, if you do go out to Chatuchak market and you’re looking for ancient agate beads, there’s one store there that I would recommend. It’s in one of the permanent structures in the market and its address is: Nai Huad Antiques, 85, Zone A, between Soi 7 & 8, Jatujak Plaza; ask for Khun Charnwith who’s the most helpful member of the family. They sell mainly ancient and antique Chinese and Southeast Asian ceramics and bronze, but they also have a small stock of authentic ancient stone beads. I’ll attach a photo of a nice Funan agate pendant that I bought from them this June - age about 1800 years, 31 mm wide. They know their antiques and they don’t knowingly sell fakes. Prices are quite high, but it always seems to me that you’re better off paying a good price for something genuine than a bargain price for a fake. Also right next door to Chatuchak is a multi-storey air-con shopping mall called JJ Mall. On the ground/basement floor there’s one bead and antiques stall that has some fine ancient West Asian beads. The pleasant woman who runs it knows her stuff. I’ve mislaid her card and can’t tell you the exact address but you’ll be able to find it in a few minutes just walking up and down the aisles.

Finally, in downtown Bangkok I’d still (just about) recommend River City shopping centre on the banks of the Chao Phraya river just off Charoen Krung Road. Twenty years ago it was one of the main centres for Asian antiques in the world, but the last time I was there the lower two floors were depressingly empty. However, most of the really good old dealers on the third and fourth floors were still open. A few of them have wonderful ancient jewellery and beads if you’re willing to pay their prices. The ones I’d recommend without reservation are Hong Antiques, Friday Antiques and Dech Gallery (at my last count Khun Dechar and his wife Khun Aum had four stores in upmarket locations around Bangkok). Some of their things are genuinely museum quality (their clients include many museums in the West), and they have massive stocks that are often hidden away, so you may have to ask for what you want. They are fascinating places to spend an hour or two, and generally the staff are friendly and welcoming provided you really know what you’re talking about. But you have to be careful in River City too because there are some thoroughly unscrupulous stores lurking in there as well. The only thing that’s worse than paying bargain prices for a fake is paying museum prices for a fake!

Good luck!

Will

Will:Funan:376as.jpg (152.4 KB)  


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Admin,
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Posted by: lapzz Post Reply
10/08/2015, 04:30:44

Dear admin,

Please remove me from this BCN forum, delete my account, and all my posts,

I apologize for if anyone hurt by intentionally or unintentionally any of my act.



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Re: Admin,
Re: Admin, -- lapzz Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: lapzz Post Reply
10/10/2015, 03:43:16

Listen folks
i never had any sort of interactions nor i have with anyone in this world, don't know why people so in agony?
have i used abusive language anywhere? or posted uncalled for remarks for anyone belonging to BCN or any other forum?
and you people what should i call a tribe of pendants, changing your statements every now and then. prior to criticizing others look at your selves...
people here might be champ of playing games with other's feelings but i am not, its sad, so sad how you treat users here.
yes i have read Beadman and Tasart's posts and really admired their knowledge and expertise and later i joined this BCN.

But you forgot i was desperately posting multiple beads and asking for experts?
your experts showed their presence here by posting links and remembering past..did any expert came out of dismissiveness or bother to ask me why i'm doing so? i got hurt though

Now the truth is, my source man sent me a parcel of ancient beads and i told him they are good even as i was not expert in beads, but that stupid source man bought whole lot of beads worth millions of pkr from a tribal person without any of my consent and letting me know, in a very short term of paying money....

i needed to ask the authenticity and worth of those beads, if i could have done some better for helping to save the source man and his family from crises.
But this banner " This forum is not to be used for sales or political commentary" bind me to ask further,
i later tried to post them in classified but in vain, where were the experts then?

but here everybody was trying to prove them fake without asking any further evidences, as now i have learned a bit more about beads, only few were fakes.

Now the harm is done that guy has lost everything his small land and house in order to compensate, what would i do to those beads, should i burn them or crush them under my foot?

i do not like This forum anymore, i had a wish to decorate it with so many unique beads and artifacts meanwhile once,


yes i was embarrassed because i really had a respect for experts like Beadman and Tasart here, so i firstly asked for my removal but now i dont wan't to be here no more at all

Admin kindly remove me from this BCN, remove all my data and posts from here,



Modified by lapzz at Sat, Oct 10, 2015, 03:59:45

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Chicanery in auctions
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Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
09/23/2015, 18:36:56

Remember a past thread about the unbelievable prices for Dzi beads on Chinese auctions?

Recently I read two books:
Allen's Antique Chinese Porcelain: The Detection of Fakes by Anthony Allen [the author is a resident of New Zealand]
The China Collectors: America's Century-Long Hunt for Asian Art Treasures by Karl E. Meyer and Shareen Blair Brysac.

Below are quoted some interesting passages from these books:
-------------------------------------------------------
Selling Fakes as Genuine Antiques

Every day, both at auction or on the Internet, thousands of fake Chinese antiques are offered for sale as genuine, either through eBay auctions, on private web-sites, or on the auction sites which sell on behalf of dealers. Most are run by Mainland or ex-pat Chinese, but for a disturbing number of Western dealers entering the field. Except for when a piece is sold for an exceptionally high price (such as the USD$1.7 million vase sold by a U.S. auction house in 2013), these attract little attention, unless, as frequently happens, the buyer defaults on payment. Mainland Chinese sellers of fakes have so corrupted eBay that it is virtually impossible to buy any quality antique Chinese item from China.

The export of antiques from China has been banned now for some 65 years, with the exception of low quality items approved for sale to foreigners. Rigorously policed, at least until recently, with offenders possibly facing the death penalty, this law (and the premiums paid for antiques in China), has seen the export of antiques from China, other than looted burial artefacts, virtually cease.

The establishment of the Peoples Republic of China by Mao Zedong in 1949 was followed by a chaotic Cultural Revolution that began in 1966 and lasted until his death in 1976. This was a time of austerity where luxuries were discouraged, and few if any copies of Imperial porcelains were made in this period. It was not until 1979 that the new administration opened up relations with the West and fakes became the subject of attention of the Chinese potters.

From the late 1990's, increasing number of Mainland Chinese dealers began attending auctions in England, Europe and the North America, buying Chinese antiques at Western auctions, reselling them in some cases for massive margins to a receptive and increasingly wealthy local clientele. It was not long before dishonest dealers, both Chinese and Western, realised they could also sell fakes as genuine, so successfully that in once case a seller has accumulated over 12,000 positive feedbacks, amazingly with not one negative.

The Chinese Struggle for Learning

It needs to be remembered that from circa 1949 up until the early 21st century, Mainland Chinese were not legally permitted to own or deal in Chinese antiques, which meant the only Mainland Chinese who had access to learn about these were a small group of Government antique, Museum, or Friendship Store employees. After 1979 education on antiques for the masses therefore came from a number of books, which initially included some excellent tests (in Chinese) on a number of specialist subjects. Enterprising Chinese publishers then started printing books on Chinese auction records, complete with colour images, a short text, and details of estimates and/or prices realised. These Chinese auction record books appear to be the primary source of knowledge for Chinese dealers, as they can never have hoped to handle the actual pieces illustrated. The auction prices are manipulated by dishonest collectors and dealers intent on getting a fake provenance for their pieces, and by Mainland Chinese auctioneers who actively participate in these frauds. The New York Times (28 October 2013) reported that about half the sales of artworks valued over $1.5 million each, in China, were not paid for, yet the alleged sale prices are still stated in the mainland Chinese auction record books for the benefit of anyone gullible enough to believe them.

A major portion of the Chinese auction system is corrupt, and only a few weeks ago, I learnt of yet another attempted scam by a Mainland Chinese dealer who approached an Auckland auctioneer wanting him to sell $700,000 of fake porcelain. The seller wanted only to negotiate the commission and buyer's premium. None of the porcelain would be sold or paid for, merely knocked down to him or one of his cohorts at inflated prices. He would then offer the pieces as genuine in China, complete with provenance and illustration in the New Zealand auction catalog. Wisely, the auctioneer declined to participate.

One interesting aspect of this trade is that the majority of the vendors selling at auction, in New Zealand anyway, are Mainland and expat Chinese, who have no quibbles about defrauding their fellow countrymen.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

The China Collectors describes how Chinese auctions are used to launder money:

...art had evolved into a form of reserve currency, quickened by popular distrust of the Chinese stock market and a slowdown in the mainland housing boom. On its darker side, the market has been blamed for museum thefts and an ongoing illicit trade in looted or smuggled antiquities. At the same time, it has given a fresh twist to China's long tradition of gift giving, providing crafty local entrepreneurs with a seemingly foolproof way to "wash" a bribe. An example of how this works has been credibly described by Hong Kong's well-sourced English-language newspaper, The South China Morning Post: "It's not rocket science. A businessman gives a painting to an official, whose relatives auction it off. The businessman buys it back at an inflated price, and the official pockets the case. This leaves less evidence linking favor to bribe than handing over suitcases of cash." Thus the auction gallery can double as a money laundry.



Modified by beadiste at Wed, Sep 23, 2015, 18:37:54

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Read all about it here:
Re: More info on Pig Ear Bead side story Please.. -- AnneLFG Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
09/24/2015, 08:34:38


Related link: http://beadcollector.net/cgi-bin/anyboard.cgi?fvp=/openforum/&cmd=get&cG=6333435363&zu=3633343536&v=2&gV=0&p=

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Pic similar to RM's bead?
Re: Read all about it here: -- beadiste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
09/24/2015, 08:44:38

http://www.friendsofjade.org/current-article/2008/4/6/from-pig-to-dragon-neolithic-hongshan-jades.html

As a caveat, in the thread about this bead Will noted that a large percentage of pieces shown on the Friends of Jade site might well be fakes imitations.

RedMountainsBeadSimilar.jpg (37.3 KB)  

Related link: http://www.friendsofjade.org/current-article/2008/4/6/from-pig-to-dragon-neolithic-hongshan-jades.html
Modified by beadiste at Thu, Sep 24, 2015, 08:49:03

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I have two Authentic antique dzi beads and one antique red coral bead that I am looking to sell.
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Posted by: devenz8 Post Reply
09/20/2015, 11:08:00

Hello,

I have two dzi beads and one red coral bead that I am looking to sell. I know somewhat of the prices on them so I am not looking to get scammed out on it but would still sell to a reseller. I have two pictures attached but if interested, even just out of curiosity, I would gladly send you more photos, just comment below I know the red coral bead is antique and rare because these came from a friends mom's collection, she had got them over 25 years ago. Also the bead is drilled for a necklace and you can see red all the way through. So if interested in purchasing just message me below and I can get you my personal information and we can go from there.

Thanks,
Deven

117_1.jpg (132.8 KB)  95_2.jpg (176.8 KB)  


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Tricky
Re: Doesn't he deserve an explanation? -- rubyzane Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: floorkasp Post Reply
09/22/2015, 01:30:53

I think there are plenty of people who unknowingly sell something as antique and or rare when it is not. I would presume that if you are doing it knowingly, doing it at a collector's site is not your best choice.
I assumed he was simply given wrong information and sent him a private reply informing him of what I thought these beads were.

Then again, he did not ask for any discussion of the beads, so no explanation is 'owed'. He simply wanted to sell them and did so in the wrong place.



Modified by floorkasp at Tue, Sep 22, 2015, 01:33:09

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Re: Tricky
Re: Tricky -- floorkasp Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: JRJ Post Reply
09/23/2015, 16:54:49

When I first came to the forum, I read every early post about certain types of beads and necklaces and, for months after finding the forum, I labored under the misunderstanding that all of examples pictured were genuine; this was because no one said otherwise. When I raised the same topic months or years later with questions of my own, it took a bit of pressing for someone to come forward and say the necklaces were fakes and explain why. I'm writing this to say that it is indeed tricky all around.



Modified by JRJ at Wed, Sep 23, 2015, 23:37:32

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Please ID: Islamic, Jatim, Indonesian replica?
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Posted by: nishedha Post Reply
09/03/2015, 05:07:30

Size: 22,5 x 21 mm

VNglass3-9-15a.jpg (108.3 KB)  VNglass3-9-15b.jpg (96.2 KB)  


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Not Jatim
Re: Please ID: Islamic, Jatim, Indonesian replica? -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Will Post Reply
09/03/2015, 10:47:19

Hi Nishedha,

It's definitely not a Jatim (wrong structure).

I think it's almost certainly an authentic and very nice late Byzantine or Islamic bead. However, I'm just a little doubtful because of the air bubbles in your close-ups. Not the presence of bubbles themselves - most ancient glass has a lot of bubbles, both internal and in the surface - but the consistency of the bubbles in the white glass reminds me of the artificial surface treatments in some of the recent fakes made in Java (see the first attached pic). But, of course, that sugar comb effect (it reminds me all too temptingly of the candy I was addicted to as a child in the UK!) is seen quite frequently in ancient beads, including Jatims (this little bead that was found in the Philippines, for instance), so I think you should overlook these lingering doubts. Yankee would know for sure.

Best,

Will

fakejatim.jpg (84.0 KB)  Jatim286a_.jpg (55.8 KB)  


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New to the forum but looking to collect beads can someone help me identfy these??
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Posted by: calumw789 Post Reply
06/14/2015, 08:25:52

Hi all.

Just been browsing ebay and found some of the largest beads I have ever seen!!!

I've attached a link below but the seller appears to have many. Just want to know there origins and what they might be worth so I don't bid too much. They look really nice and I've got a use for them but just wanted a second opinion.

Hope someone can help

Regards

CW


Related link: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Huge-Copal-Egg-Yolk-Amber-Trade-Bead-African-Tibetan-Berber-Moroccan-283G-/391171433541?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_3&hash=item5b13a26445

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Re: New to the forum but looking to collect beads can someone help me identfy these??
Re: New to the forum but looking to collect beads can someone help me identfy these?? -- calumw789 Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: collector78915 Post Reply
06/16/2015, 02:53:14

Hi all
I was directed to this forum by an eBay member.
I am the seller of these said beads and wanted to clarify a few things.
These are Copal beads. They are part of a large collection a relative owned.
They were tested with a hot pin and smell like pine leaves. (the smell reminds me of when I burned a Christmas tree in the new year in an incinerator garden waste bin.
They have also been tested with acetone and rubbed between pieces of cloth and they become sticky when this is done.
I also had someone look at them a few years ago an Asian arts dealer who collects amber. He confirmed they were copal.
The beads have also been rubbed with simichrome and the polish remains pink which emphasises these are not a form of plastic or Bakelite.
I hope this clarifies things for people.
Thank-you



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No question in my mind that these are fakes
Re: Re: New to the forum but looking to collect beads can someone help me identfy these?? -- collector78915 Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadstore.com Post Reply
06/17/2015, 06:04:35

It's been a very interesting discussion, and I certainly appreciate the seller stepping up to discuss the beads. But there is no question in my mind that these are not an organic material. I've seen many strands of these large, high quality, amber reproductions in Morocco and other places. Real copal is a very different beast. Copal generally doesn't come in sizes that large (particularly that wide), it doesn't polish the way those beads shine, it doesn't include angular blocks in the material, cutting marks, etc.

And don't discount the wisdom of the mass market. People clearly recognize these beads as fake, given the fact that there are no bids. That being said, $10-15 a bead strikes me as a very fair price for nice quality reproductions.


And just for fun, here are a couple of repaired copal beads that I really love.


Abe @ Beadstore.com

Copal1.jpg (42.4 KB)  


Modified by beadstore.com at Wed, Jun 17, 2015, 06:05:08

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Re: No question in my mind that these are fakes
Re: No question in my mind that these are fakes -- beadstore.com Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Heleen Post Reply
07/04/2015, 03:05:44

Oh my god, I love these repaired ambers <3



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Re: Newly made from some kind of thermoplastic resin/ regarding Kilroy
Re: Newly made from some kind of thermoplastic resin -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Air studios Post Reply
06/21/2015, 12:14:44

Please read my post, " (Kilroy/fun fact)" on this thread, about the organic based synthetic material my Uncle created for his "Kilroy" pocket lapel pins, circa 1940's. If you have any interest in analyzing this interesting synthetic let me know..And if you can't find a lapel pin for sale online I'll loan you one from my collection. To the best of my knowledge this material has never been successfully analyzed, and although I'm unaware of documentation regarding my Uncle's formula, his memorabilia was requested by, and donated to , a Wisconsin Museum after his death. I do know that this particular synthetic/plastic not only looks like Bakelite, it's even more versatile and adaptable than Bakelite. I'm actually writing in response to your post about an interest in the synthetics used to imitate amber because my quess is that many of the so called amber beads were (and are) made of the same kind of adaptive material my uncle invented to meet his specific needs. Because this subject fascinates me, I did make a bid on one of these beads ... But lost to a bidder who managed to win almost the entire collection! (You might try writing to the seller to see if the buyer is open to communication and would be willing to send you a sample from one of the beads.)



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Bead Testing
Re: Re: Newly made from some kind of thermoplastic resin/ regarding Kilroy -- Air studios Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
06/22/2015, 08:43:21

Thanks for the interesting tidbit about your uncle! While I'm curious about what plastics he used, this doesn't relate closely enough to the fake amber beads for me to want to pay for an analysis - $75 per sample plus return postage if you want the sample back. If you would like to do this yourself I can send the contact info for the lab.

During WWII, a number of new plastics were invented and/or commercialized, such as polystyrene and polyisobutylene (rubber replacement). It's possible your uncle modified some commercial phenolic resins with some newer materials. And yes, it is possible that the Chinese are doing something similar to mimic amber.

Those large flat amber-colored monstrosities are likely hand-made, maybe in Morocco, from old plastic scrap and maybe some additives and colorants from China. I posted a link to a 5 year-old video of this being done in Morocco. The Chinese tend to make "perfect" amber fake beads - you can see them on AliExpress if you search "Tibetan amber beads". There are hundreds of listing so you have to search through a bunch but you'll even see fakes advertised as natural amber, with high price tags. But nothing like these huge flat beads.



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Re: Bead Testing
Re: Bead Testing -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Air studios Post Reply
06/22/2015, 18:05:16

Yes it seems like more trouble than it's worth to test the Kilroys...(I thought you indicated you had that ability at hand and in that case it seemed like a plan..) I guess the crazy amber replicas made me think of my eccentric uncle (Bob Neller.) He was a highly regarded ventriloquist and entertainer.. But he was always inventing some darrn thing. Knowing Bob he probably mixed the synthetic based on several needs that were unique to the production of these little pins. Don't think he danced with an existing substance because he was not a chemist.. And would never have analyzed the existing synthetic materials.. More likely he went to the basement and began his own nutty professor process. When I looked up the methods used to imitate the "amber" trade beads I was amazed that the darn beads looked as good as they did.. (and they don't look all that good.) The large wheel beads I have left in my stash from the '70's are actually beautifully made . I always assumed they were copal but now I'm thinking Bakelite . Whatever, they are attractive, and I didn't pay much 40 years ago because my bead pruchases were about historical value and aesthetics, not rarity or investment. I was going to purchase some amber trade beads but now the whole subject has left a sour taste in my mouth. So many fakes.. So much chicanery. Not my idea of fun!



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Bead Society of Greater Washington (DC) meeting 7/9
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Posted by: paula Post Reply
07/02/2015, 07:19:01


Our July 9th program will be presented by Linda Pastorino, an internationally-known collector of ethnic jewelry and owner of Sinkiang (https://rugrabbit.com/profile/2046). The meeting will begin promptly at 7:00 PM at the Chevy Chase Community Center, 5601 Connecticut Avenue, N.W., Washington, D.C.
Linda will discuss “Connoisseurship of Collecting Ethnic Jewelry — Dating, Grading, and Identifying Fakes.” She will offer a PowerPoint presentation to be followed by a round-table show-and-tell of items brought by our members. Please bring with you one or more pieces of ethnic jewelry to share (and to have Linda comment on) during the show-and-tell session.



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old amber beads - question
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Posted by: Locomule Post Reply
05/31/2015, 14:58:23

How would I go about getting something like these appraised/tested/etc to find out more about them? There are around 90 beads. I'd share more details but you experts can probably tell more from the photo than I can share.

edit: My image link didn't work so I added the photo as a reply to this post. Sorry, I'm new to these forums.



Modified by Locomule at Mon, Jun 01, 2015, 06:55:56

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dead end
Re: Re: Re: Re: old amber beads - question -- Air studios Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Locomule Post Reply
06/02/2015, 16:02:47

The gentleman at the jewelry store seemed to know less than I do, unfortunately. One of his comments was, "Those aren't worth very much, the only amber that is valuable is museum quality amber that has insects in it." Which made me want to ask, "Then why did one of your people look at my photograph and ask me to wait until next Tuesday to come in?" Oh well. I'll probably end up making them into a necklace for my wife. I'm an artist, I make art,and I excel at any medium. I'm also gonna do some looking around and see how much it would cost to have a bead professionally analyzed. I'm also going to dig deep into the internet and see if I can find anymore that have been faceted and sized in a similar fashion.
Thanks again to everyone for all your comments and insight. Great site too!



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Re: dead end
Re: dead end -- Locomule Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Air studios Post Reply
06/04/2015, 08:20:04

That jewelry store owner was nuts! Whenever I need advice or jewelry cleaning i go to antique/consignment store in my town .. The owner is an accredited gemologist and he's also passionate about antique jewelry. The value of amber beads fluctuates and does depend on condition and quality... But a strand of good amber beads can be very valuable . You just went to someone who didn't know what the heck he was asking about. ( An insect inside an amber piece or bead can be rare and valuable but there are so many fakes on the market it takes a specialist to analyze anything like this.)



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More on Faturan
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Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
05/17/2015, 08:30:27

Decided to start a new thread on faturan -

It seems that an Asian branch of the German chemical company Raschig GmbH is still making a product called Faturan - Bakelite. They also are making phenolic resin rod stock and other shapes under the trade name Catalin, which is one of the trade names for cast phenolic resins that dates back to the late 1920's. After the patent for the original Bakelite product ran out, a large number of companies began to produce all sorts of phenolic resin in raw stock and finished parts, and Catalin was one of them. Catalin appears to be one of the amber-substitute materials from which many trade beads to Africa were made.

Back to Faturan - the Wikipedia article says, "Originally, Faturan was a brand of cast thermosetting phenol formaldehyde resin, similar to Bakelite, manufactured by Dr. H Traun u. Sohne of Hamburg. Faturan was the invention of Dr Friedrich Adolf Traun, Dr Heinrich Traun's son, hence the name FATuran.

The Faturan being produced today is mostly clear, in contrast to the Catalin which is mostly opaque or marbled, but clear material is also produced. At any rate, there still seems to be a demand for a product called "Faturan" and this company is filling it, with a phenolic resin material. And, the name has its roots in a German chemical company, so it makes sense that a German company is still making the product today. Or at least they were in 2001 which is the date stamp on the web site.

The main issue for bead collectors, IMHO, is that phenolic resin beads from the inter-war period can be very hard to distinguish from more recent phenolic beads, which I believe are still being made, given that the materials are readily available. The newer beads are probably coming out of Asia and India where labor is cheap. As with a lot of things in the bead world, one has to rely on personal experience with the older beads, and develop an eye for wear, patina, shape, etc.

As an added note - I am searching for information that would establish the company names and/or location(s) of phenolic resin bead production in Germany, in the interwar period of the 1920's - 1940's. Any leads would be helpful. It seems that many people believe the beads were made in Germany, but I have not been able to substantiate that. Examples of the large wheel-shaped beads traded to Africa are shown in the picture.

LargeWheels.jpg (57.0 KB)  

Related link: http://www.raschig.net/p/faturan-bakelite.html
Modified by Rosanna at Sun, May 17, 2015, 08:32:27

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From a 1925 technical paper - Faturan is listed as a trade name for phenolic resin
Re: More on Faturan -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
05/17/2015, 15:09:46

"The resinous bodies resulting from the condensation of phenol and aldehydes...known under various trade names as Bakelite, Redmanol, Sipilite, Condensite, Amberite, Faturan, Phenoform, Nuloid, Amberdeen, etc., etc."

Quote from a paper by L.H. Baekeland and H. L. Bender, in Ind. Eng. Chem., 1925, 17 (3), pp 225Ð237. Baekeland of course is the inventor of Bakelite phenolic resins. The original patent ran out in 1927. I am going to order a copy of this paper see what else I can learn about the "timeline" of industrial phenolic resin production. But from this publication we can see that the trade name Faturan was in existence in early 1925.

I strongly suspect that the current "fascination" with Faturan beads may be on account of the rarity of beads dating to this time period of the 1920's. Beads made from the German product, Faturan, may have been very beautiful and likely found their way to the Middle East in the form of prayer strands. And like so many other beads and bead materials, once the demand starts, any number of fakes and reproductions inevitably crop up.



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zigzag Czech beads recently discussed -for the record
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Posted by: Stefany Post Reply
04/10/2015, 10:17:54

the discussion has disappeared off the front page, but i just found this among my necklaces...
each of the bigger ovals are composed of 3 beads made to fit snugly together...

Bmoulded_Czech_zigzag_components_choker_copy.jpg (159.3 KB)  


Modified by Stefany at Fri, Apr 10, 2015, 10:20:00

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-beads are never boring to me!
Re: Re: Czech different zigzag beads 1930s choker more info -- nicUK Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Stefany Post Reply
04/14/2015, 08:36:54

Dear Lulu
all beads are interesting and we learn so much from them- how they were made, what they are made of, and if they are copies they tell us what somebody thought was special enough to copy!
and some of the old and traditional beads and bead jewellery may have had important and precious meanings for the people who wore them- such as the power of protecting against illness or harm.

maybe you know about christian, muslim, hindu or buddhist prayer beads, or beads with an eye design that ward off the evil eye?

if you collect and want to find out about any beads its hard to be really bored...
quite ordinary small beads are used to make wonderful beadwork patterns...

right now when there is time, i am trying to list a lot of the beads in my collection to label and catalogue them properly and have begun taking photographs of them. i've been collecting for many years so my cupboards and shelves are quite stacked up...

i'm not such a good photographer so a friend is also helping me.



Modified by Stefany at Tue, Apr 14, 2015, 08:38:09

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Re: -beads are never boring to me!
Re: -beads are never boring to me! -- Stefany Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: nicUK Post Reply
04/14/2015, 09:14:50

Hello . I have lots of beads I buy beads that I don't really like much if I don't have them or if I want to poke them a bit. Some times I rub them with sand paper to see what s I side or rub them with nail vanish remover.I used to be heated up some beads to see what they were but my green beads set on fire and my mum was very mad and I'm not allowed to do it . I can only buy beads that don't cost a lot i don't care that they're fakes because my brother said its ok if you are used totouching fakes you will kbow straight away when you touch a real thing like how experts can know a fake because they are used to real one . Because it must work both ways I hope it does anyway.I have been giving some of my beads away because I have got a lot and I can't keep so many at one time till I have my own house which will be 20 years from now bye from Lulu



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On the other hand....
Re: Re: -beads are never boring to me! -- nicUK Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Luann Udell Post Reply
04/14/2015, 21:13:52

I look back at some of the beads I thought were sooooo beautiful when I first started buying, and I wonder what I was thinking.

Others that I thought were "meh", are now much more interesting to me.

And of course, there are some I absolutely loved, and now I wish I'd bought more!

Re: "Fakes", there are fakes and there are fakes. There's a whole history of glass beads that imitated precious stones,handmade beads in Africa meant to imitate European beads, and in my case, beads I make myself to look like ancient beads. In many cases, I think they are wonderful in their own right.

I've seen beautiful jewelry made with very simple, inexpensive beads, and jewelry made with expensive, collectible beads that were honkin' ugly (IMHO.)

And of course, simple black, white and clear beads are hard workers when they're used to set off the beauty of other, more elegant beads.

By all means, give away the ones that don't interest you. But it's also okay to simply like what you like, and to choose better beads as and when you can afford them.

Luann Udell artist & writer Ancient stories retold in modern artifacts LuannUdell.com

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Did Chinese chevrons kill the trade bead collectibles?
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Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
04/02/2015, 09:42:43

Noticed that Matt has a string of 7-layers on offer at a price that, a few years ago, would have caused collectors to leap like trout.

Doing a flyover of eBay sales, the scene looks pretty bleak.

So it's not cool anymore to sport chevrons?

Or are merely 450-year-old beads now passe, with everyone chasing old stone and ancient glass?



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Re: Did Chinese chevrons kill the trade bead collectibles?
Re: Did Chinese chevrons kill the trade bead collectibles? -- beadiste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: kitrescue Post Reply
04/08/2015, 18:33:42

This is a very interesting topic to me. I have collected fancy 20th century Venetian beads for many years and only started with the trade beads about 3 years ago. Because I gravitate to complexity in a bead, I tend to prefer millefioris to other types of trade beads. Still, I decided to buy a strand of six layer chevrons to have as a type piece. Even with the Picards' book on chevrons, I did not feel able to distinguish between reproductions (especially if artificially aged) and genuine old chevrons. I bought two strands of big six layers from reputable sellers on ebay (sellers that I have also seen on this site) and that's it. The fakes are definitely an issue and have stopped me in my tracks as far as buying any more or stretching for seven layers. Also, I can't really wear the large chevrons on a day to day basis, unlike the trade beads and fancy Venetians, so I like the big chevrons as objects rather than wearable pieces.



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Interesting old Indonesian?
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Posted by: lopacki Post Reply
03/20/2015, 09:19:41

A good friend and fellow bead collector that has lived in Bali for over thirty years just sent me this image of some beads he just purchased. As he is well aware of all the new (old) beads being made in Indonesia and sells this type bead for the proper low price his comment on these beads is that they are 10th century.

Any and all comments will be very interesting for all of us.

All my best ..................... Danny

jb.jpg (161.7 KB)  


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All of them are fakes. I'm sure.
Re: Interesting old Indonesian? -- lopacki Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: shinji Post Reply
03/20/2015, 22:57:04



Modified by shinji at Fri, Mar 20, 2015, 23:03:42

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Seeing fakes
Re: Interesting old Indonesian? -- lopacki Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Will Post Reply
03/21/2015, 11:26:48

Hi Danny,

I don't think it's very difficult to tell from the photo that these particular beads are fakes. Shinji is absolutely right, of course. If one looks at the beads, it's quite clear that they are technically different from authentic Jatims. For instance, the pelangis in the front row are not made from mosaic canes layered and combed over a monochrome core and then pinched off to create the individual bead.

For this reason, these fakes appear to belong to an older generation of copies from around fifteen years ago, before the beadmakers in Jember understood how the originals were made. They imitate the appearance, but not the structure. The colours of the glass and the formations of the eyes are wrong too. Somebody who has lived in Bali for thirty years and handles lots of beads could have figured this out; he ought to know too that no Jatims were being made as late as the 10th century.

The copies have gotten much better and more convincing in the past ten years, and so have the techniques for ageing them. But I don't think one needs to avoid Jatims because of that; one just has to look more carefully. I've certainly made mistakes, but we learn from our mistakes - or if we don't we should get out of the collecting game. And I don't think that Jatims are that much more dangerous than, say, Roman face beads or Phoenicians or for that matter ancient stone beads. It's the same problem with any antique really. And as for Zi - now there's a real minefield! The excitement lies in picking one's way through it.

All the best,

Will



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please some explanations
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Posted by: kika Post Reply
03/04/2015, 13:04:49

Hello all,
My husband bought me this bead, but after 40 years in Africa, I've never seen these beads and never in books. .
I made two pics to see the hole because I have a Colossal doubt!!
Are they modern from China, India, Indonesia or.....ancient??
Is it someone who knows these beads?
Thanks for your response.
best all
Kika

DSC05289.jpg (48.7 KB)  DSC05290.jpg (36.1 KB)  
kika

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Re: please some explanations
Re: please some explanations -- kika Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
03/04/2015, 14:19:03

The colors and concept are very East Java -contemporary…not "RARE-OLD-ISLAMIC."

To view more fakes by comparison please see:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/RARE-OLD-ISLAMIC-ANCIENT-MOSAIC-GLASS-BEAD-BIRD-CHICKEN-BEADS-049-/161605692502?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item25a0732c56



Modified by Frederick II at Wed, Mar 04, 2015, 23:36:59

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ID request please.
Post Reply Edit Forum
Posted by: bonpo Post Reply
01/26/2015, 23:50:08

former owner told me these were purchased in Turkey few decades ago.

are these Ancient or fakes??

RIMG3500.JPG (58.9 KB)  RIMG3502.JPG (74.6 KB)  


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Show us your bead buying mishaps!
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Posted by: floorkasp Post Reply
12/11/2014, 13:18:04

Inspired by Defiant Grae's post and Rubyzane's response, I thought it could be fun to show some of the beads we bought when we did not quite know enough to tell real from fake and other bead buying mistakes.

I'll start.....
First is a little bird bead, one of the first beads I showed on BCN. From my early days of bead collecting. Bought in Kashgar, Western China, traveling the Silk Road. Quite clearly a new replica, but I had no idea then.

Second is a more recent buy: bought in May in Beijing. A genuine Warring States bead. I could see something was off, but could not quite put my finger on it. Until, after I took it home, I actually put my finger on it, literally...... It has been 'restored' with polymer clay. The yellow eyes are soft dots of clay glued onto the bead.

No regrets on either of these. The first one was pretty cheap, and was part of great learning curve. The second one was not so cheap, but still a genuine bead with a great story.

So, don't be shy: what are your 'bead buying mishaps?'

3_vogel1.jpg (25.7 KB)  2_DSC_0108.jpg (48.0 KB)  


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Right!
Re: I feel it is best to ID the seller privately -not on BCN- because he is not able to defend himself. -- Frederick Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: nishedha Post Reply
12/12/2014, 11:11:43



Modified by nishedha at Fri, Dec 12, 2014, 11:48:16

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Right!
Re: Right! -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick Post Reply
12/12/2014, 11:59:40

I feel it would be helpful to contrast and compare right with wrong beads.
But all sellers are guilty of unwittingly selling fakes at one time or another.
Sometimes this happens because of ignorance. -Sometimes by passing errors on...
Challenging beads make better bead warriors of us in a minefield of possible mistakes.

Frederick

Modified by Frederick at Fri, Dec 12, 2014, 12:00:31

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Here is one from me
Re: Show us your bead buying mishaps! -- floorkasp Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadweyr Post Reply
12/12/2014, 15:00:34

Took a chance on these on ebay didn't pay much luckily. I knew nothing about these type of beads but after posting these here on BCN I now know more. education costs but it is worth it.
Wayne

7_2.JPG (100.9 KB)  


Modified by beadweyr at Fri, Dec 12, 2014, 15:01:11

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Would not have known....
Re: Here is one from me -- beadweyr Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: floorkasp Post Reply
12/13/2014, 01:51:30

If it weren't for the similar beads I found in a Brussels beads shop. Whenever I see interesting fakes, and they are cheap, I will buy them. A large part of my collection are fakes. There are quite a few beads of which I have no original, but plenty of fakes. I like the stories that come with them. And they are great education too.

Perhaps there is a book lurking in there some time.



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lets call them "tributes" rather than fakes...?
Re: Would not have known.... -- floorkasp Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Stefany Post Reply
12/13/2014, 06:26:19



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Ancient Jade, Fakes, Scandals
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Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
12/09/2014, 21:18:46

In an article about cloisonne the reporter discussed some of the methods for faking Ming pieces and mentioned the reluctance of Palace Museum experts to render opinions on authenticity thanks to a recent scandal involving a museum expert, bribery, and a fake jade suit.

Following the breadcrumbs, first there was this entertaining Asian Art Forum discussion of a Shang jade bear that sold for $8,000,000

http://www.asianart.com/phpforum/index.php?method=reply&RId=59403&gId=1&MSubject=8+Million+Dollar+Han+Bear&PID=59403&PHPSESSID=vfoq1pr10do554gb12brrm9jj3

The Certificate of Authenticity reports, which are illuminating as to the depth of detail experts examine:
http://www.eliteauction.com/stoetzer/index2.html
http://www.eliteauction.com/stoetzer/

And finally, some acerbic reports, such as this delightful piece that pits the peasants and pirates against the "experts."

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ZyhgsHNNuf8J:www.theworldofchinese.com/2014/08/the-antiques-hustle/+&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

And some tsk-tsking from China Daily about that jade suit scandal:
http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/opinion/2011-09/13/content_13670774.htm

JadeBear3.jpg (162.2 KB)  


Modified by beadiste at Wed, Dec 10, 2014, 10:52:25

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Turquoise help request
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Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
10/21/2014, 10:36:49

I found Danny's recent post of his gorgeous turquoise beads very interesting, and then the discussion about the high prices being realized for turquoise VERY interesting.

So I dug out some of my turquoise stash and having no experience identifying it, let alone pricing it, I was hoping I could impose on the turquoise experts for some help.

First set of pictures is of a strand of graduated disks, augmented by a few rounds. Largest disk in the center is about 17 mm diameter. Purchased about 12-15 years ago, and I guess it is Chinese turquoise. Is there any way to tell from pictures if it is stabilized, dyed, etc. and what the value would be today? I have not shopped for turquoise for over 10 years so I don't know if strand like this are available. I recall paying maybe $80-100 for it.

TurquoiseDisks.jpg (44.3 KB)  TurquoiseDisksClose.jpg (28.6 KB)  


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Turquoise Question ?
Re: Turquoise help request -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Sallie Post Reply
10/23/2014, 05:48:47

Turquoise question

Having read all the interesting posts about turquoise, I cannot help but wonder about my turquoise items. I am posting some of my turquoise beads and hope lopacki will comment on whether they are genuine turquoise or howlite or dyed.

All the items came from China land of fakes (and also of many wonderful things)

The first pic shows a bird, a shell and some small animal and the reverse of these is shown in second picture. Would also be grateful if someone can tell the age and vintage of the pieces.

Many thanks in advance.

Sallie

2_turquoise.jpg (135.5 KB)  turquoise_2.jpg (120.9 KB)  


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Ceramic "fake" chevron question.
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Posted by: Dog Bone Crazy Post Reply
10/19/2014, 06:19:26

Hello All;

Is there any updated information about these ceramic fake chevrons? How were they manufactured? How were they decorated? Where were they manufactured? When were they manufactured. Where in Africa were they used and traded? Were they used outside of Africa?

Sincerely
Thomas Mercer

1_showoffakes-2.jpg (116.9 KB)  


Modified by Dog Bone Crazy at Sun, Oct 19, 2014, 19:15:46

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Re: Ceramic "fake" chevron question.
Re: Ceramic "fake" chevron question. -- Dog Bone Crazy Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: floorkasp Post Reply
10/19/2014, 07:06:44

As far is I know, they are Prosser beads, made by the French Bapterosses company in Briare, probably between 1900 and 1940. If you look at the ends, you will probably notice that one end is quite rough compared to the other. Not rough like unglazed ceramic, but rough because the Prosser bead was fired on the bottom in a kiln. The composition of the base material for Prosser varied between period and bead types. This ones seems to be closer to ceramic than some other Prosser beads.

I have talked to the Picards about these a few times. The exact shape of these beads, in white and in blue, shows up on Bapterosses sample cards, but without the chevron decoration.
The Bapterosses have made a range of attempts of making their own chevron style beads, some more successful than others. Some are made like a puzzle of different pieces together, some by painting.

The specific style of this fake chevron bead does not show up in the collection of the Briare museum, or on any of the sample cards. This makes it almost impossible to know if they have been decorated by the Bapterosses factory, as they did with some other fake chevrons, or if they were decorated elsewhere. The coating does not really stand up to wear. It's color and style does show similarity to the other Prosser fakes by the Bapterosses. Almost like the red was made with a simple marker....

Below is a picture of my versions of these beads, worn a lot more. Second picture shows all Bapterosses beads, found by a local woman in their dumpsite. There is a painted chevron, and a white plain bead with the 'cuts' along the side to color it as a chevron too. That would suggest that this decoration was done after firing, which may explain why the color tends to wear off. Also, you can see the white and blue tubular beads that seem to be linked to the fake chevrons you showed. Most, if not all, of the beads in this picture appear to be prototypes that have not made it to the market in large quantities.

Perhaps if others would show their fake chevrons of this type too, with details of the holes and their size, we could solve this puzzle with a bit more proof.

IMG_3549.jpg (33.5 KB)  1_DSC00059.jpg (46.5 KB)  


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Jatim or Majapahit Beads, please advise..
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Posted by: Kajornboonsook Post Reply
09/12/2014, 00:06:59

I've just found and joined this forum. As a new member please advise these beads are good or not..Thank you









Modified by Kajornboonsook at Fri, Sep 12, 2014, 08:33:38

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Re: Jatim, not Majapahit
Re: Jatim or Majapahit Beads, please advise.. -- Kajornboonsook Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Will Post Reply
09/12/2014, 06:39:12

Hi Kajornboonsook,

Welcome! Your beads look genuine to me. I haven't seen the black (or dark blue) and white ones in your last picture before but I wouldn't have serious doubts about them. It may be that the original colour has completely leached out of what is now white glass; this sometimes happens.

The name Majapahit is a misnomer for Jatim beads. They were made in the far east of Java around the middle of the first millennium and have nothing to do with the Majapahit Empire that was centred further to the west and flourished some eight hundred years later.

A word of warning: there are a large number of very convincing fakes nowadays and many of them are to be found in Bangkok.

All the best,

Will

1_JatimsNecklace-s.jpg (38.7 KB)  


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Dramatically changing my opinion...
Re: Jatim or Majapahit Beads, please advise.. -- Kajornboonsook Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
09/13/2014, 13:55:40

Sawasdee Khap Paul Kajornboonsook,

Before you enlarged the photos,
I was a bit hasty in reaching my conclusions.
After all, I am not intending to play the role of an expert.
I am learning just like everyone else.

But, the more I look at the improved images:,
the more suspicious I am of the beads with color.

The beads with the severely abraded apertures seemed more convincing.
And, it may be possible to achieve this type of devitrification by
leaving a bead in an acid bath for a long time, perhaps a week.

I feel uncomfortable beginning with the blue one.
And, especially the black and orange...and the green and orange one.
The green and orange cylindrical bead is Islamic Era in style.

By making convincing but confusing reproductions, Javanese copyists
have successfully killed their market for antique Jatim beads.
Now you can find bargains in ancient Jatim beads
-if only you could sort them out.

Plain beads are probably not fakes.
So, ugly beads may contain clues!

Do you recall the lyrics from the song:
"If you want to be happy for the rest of your life,
never make a pretty woman your wife.
So from my personal point of view,
get an ugly girl to marry you."
Seriously I'm kidding.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQTveD0xCsQ

Just Fred



Modified by Frederick II at Sun, Sep 14, 2014, 03:48:34

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Re: Jatim or Majapahit Beads, please advise..
Re: Jatim or Majapahit Beads, please advise.. -- Kajornboonsook Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Bolthouse Post Reply
10/11/2014, 15:40:46

Vibrant clean colors, fresh baked, no patena , beads do not have a ancient smooth wear to them.. typical chinese fakes.. many of the replicas are made in southern Thailand near Puhket



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I really wonder sometimes about people
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Posted by: beadweyr Post Reply
10/02/2014, 15:42:11

I just had someone request a return for the below beads they purchased from me. The reason they stated was that they are reproductions.
I see so many misrepresented beads being sold online that it drives me crazy. Are people so confused by the new stuff that they can not recognize the old any more. so sad.


Just an FYI the beads were posted as "Venetian from the late 1800's early 1900's out of the West African trade"

57.JPG (91.0 KB)  


Modified by beadweyr at Sun, Oct 05, 2014, 18:33:19

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I've had something similar happen too...
Re: I really wonder sometimes about people -- beadweyr Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Joyce Post Reply
10/02/2014, 20:09:21

It was a wound cylinder white-based Venetian "festooned" fancy bead with pink eyes adorning it.......Some of the pink glass of the "eyes" were crackled, not unusual and did show in the images.....I was accused of applying pink material to attempt to restore what the person perceived as missing eyes.

Yes Wayne, I think you are right. There are so many fakes people are starting to think everything is fake.

Just curious.....did this dissatified customer tell you where they think the beads were made?



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bead ID please
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Posted by: bonpo Post Reply
09/22/2014, 02:02:29

could someone help me in identifying this 13mm bead?

RIMG1051.JPG (46.8 KB)  RIMG1052.JPG (46.7 KB)  


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Re: It is a very good Chinese fake.
Re: I feel it is a very good Chinese fake. -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: karavanserai Post Reply
09/23/2014, 09:40:15

Please Fred, give us a clue what gave it away.
Personally I thought the eyes were fine, but the blue glass and the opening looked much younger. But that is purely gut feeling and I haven't handled these beads so I could be miles away from the truth.

martine

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Sleuthing in the bead market is a lot of fun, really...
Re: Re: It is a very good Chinese fake. -- karavanserai Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
09/23/2014, 09:45:18

Dear Martine,

Buy expensive real ones, and live with them for a awhile…you will learn.
The trouble is: You have to pay the price. -Start at five hundred dollars per bead.

At five hundred dollars per bead, it begins to become cost effective for the copiest.
And today, there is a lot of money in China…and the Chinese are selling to each other.

The question is: Who has the talent and the time to go to that much trouble finessing a fake?
(The answer is: A brilliant Chinese copiest. And there seem to be a lot of them.)

For these reasons, I could also recommend buying cheap, ugly fakes to begin with.
But the problem is: You will end up with a lot of cheap, ugly fakes.

Then compare your pile of expensive real ones with the fakes, and you will know too.
Artistic things cannot be easily taught. They have to be experienced.

I have spent many months shopping in and around the "Curio Cities" surrounding
the Panjiayuan Market in Beijing. I feel this was the right place to begin.

Is an education in Ancient Chinese beads worthwhile? Maybe not. But it is a lot of fun.

Just Fred



Modified by Frederick II at Wed, Sep 24, 2014, 02:14:21

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Please help with bead ID
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Posted by: baca-cara Post Reply
09/02/2014, 04:37:14

I have been registered for few years, but I am not knowledgeable enough to participate in your discussions. Today I need your help with a bead ID: I purchased it 10 years ago, size 6,8 cm x 5,6 cm, hole dia 1,2 cm, I purchased as is, didn't even clean it. The blue green end may be glued, while the other fissures and cracks don't seem to be really broken apart

grosse-perle_5-1a.jpg (163.0 KB)  grosse-perle_6-1a.jpg (153.2 KB)  


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Re: Re: more pics - thank you, one more question
Re: Re: more pics -- floorkasp Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: baca-cara Post Reply
09/02/2014, 23:46:11

thank you! For the sake of learning, would you tell me the reasons for your judgement? Brigitte



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A good way to learn is to buy nice fakes...
Re: Re: Re: more pics - thank you, one more question -- baca-cara Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
09/03/2014, 01:09:07

There are no examples like this from the Islamic Era -even if it appeared to be old; and it does not appear to be old at all.

The problems are: The yellow is too bright. And due to lack of proper patina, the other colors are wrong too. The silhouette is too oval. The size is too large. The patina is actually false; the bead has been soaked in acid for a couple of hours, which created stress cracks and an evenly etched surface. An old one would have an uneven patina.

Hopefully this was an inexpensive beginning for you; and now you may be better equiped to train your eye to notice the differences in an old one. But if you should be lucky to find an old one, it could cost a lot of money for a good example. Given the opportunity, most bead collectors would never have the courage to pay in four figures for one glass bead.

May I ask where you found it?

Just Fred



Modified by Frederick II at Wed, Sep 03, 2014, 03:35:16

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By comparison:
Re: Please help with bead ID -- baca-cara Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
09/03/2014, 02:15:08

Your bead is trying to emulate the one circled in this collection of mostly Islamic Era beads.

Islamic.jpg (89.4 KB)  


Modified by Frederick II at Wed, Sep 03, 2014, 02:16:24

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Re: By comparison:
Re: By comparison: -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: baca-cara Post Reply
09/03/2014, 07:17:36

Many many thanks FrederickII! MUCH to learn! This will be a longer answer, please apologize:
I am German, my husband is a very knowledgeable collector of medieval glasses (like drinking glasses etc), and he in general knows much about this kind of glass (but he knows nothing about beads, and I know a little bit, but especially that time nothing about fakes). So he knows how different old glass can look like, depending on the area (ground in most instances), it was found. We purchased this bead in the Netherlands, on the Uetrecht huge flea-market which does take place each year Nov. From a dealer who had mainly dug items, like medieval things and prehistory (stone artifacts among them), which were genuine, we definitely could judge this. This was one of the reasons we thought the bead may be genuine too. The next reason was the yellow color. My hubby thought it is the same as on the Oinochoe (glass jar) from the 6-4 century BC, region of the black sea. Technique also is the same: a sand core, and this combed feather decoration, also similar color combo with bright blue and green and sometimes red or dark blue. We thought we knew enough about old glass in general to be "on the safe side" although we really didn't know enough about old beads! But colors look different in pictures, and we just checked some pictures we have of such jars, most often the yellow is darker, warmer.

I disagree to your judgement that the surface of the bead is eaqually etched. Sorry, my pics may be not the best. The blue-green end: the green is less "pitted" than the blue, and the colored body is almost not etched, it is smooth, with many small holes we thought were air-bubbles in the glass. We thought this bead may originate from a grave, which also would explain the unusual large size. All other reasons you mention, especially the shape, size, also the red color, we agree. With respect to cracks, we thought these are caused by stress when cooling down the glass. We paid Euro 600, which was quite some money for us that time, and it was a risky thing!

I post 3 pictures of GENUINE old glass beads from digs: they all originate from a Frankish - Merovingian grave yard which was located near my hubby's hometown. It was partly destroyed by power shovel in the late 1960s. Burial objects and human bone lay in the open, and my hubby just collected the beads. The large one is a Roman glass bead (3,3 x 2,4 cm) which was given to the Frankish person for his last journey, the other three are Frankish, the two large ones look like new beads (length 1,0 and 1,1 cm). What would you think without this story? If you would see them on ebay, would you buy?

fränkisch_1_1-1.jpg ( bytes)  fänkisch_1_2-1a.jpg ( bytes)  


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Re: "Rechercher s'il vous plaît…"
Re: "Rechercher s'il vous plaît…" -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: baca-cara Post Reply
09/04/2014, 07:19:35

okay, here is what my husband said:
it is a ground /dig find, glass is of different composition, that's why the yellow and white look in most places like new and even shiny. The brown spots should be sinter, the soil the bead was deposited in caused some etching. The large round spotted structure on the black glass in the first picture looks a bit strange. All the "marks" on the bead depend on how the bead was deposited in the soil. His gut feeling says it is genuine old. You know yourself that it is difficult to judge only from pictures, better to have the item of interest in your hand. Pictures are bad, before buying he would ask for better pictures. Given that Islamic Near / Middle East currently is the world's most important and best region for tomb raiding and illicit digging, does support the gut feeling. We learn from our media how easy and excellently organized it is to sell such finds from the first one who dug (poor peasant or similar) to worldwide. This is no judgement about the bead as type, age, etc

If I were the seller, I would at least add some description - would be easier to sell, it does cost a bit more than few $

Brigitte



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Re: Re: "Rechercher s'il vous plaît…"
Re: Re: "Rechercher s'il vous plaît…" -- baca-cara Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: floorkasp Post Reply
09/04/2014, 08:20:04

I'll jump in to. I think this bead is also a fake, but made in China. A lot of beads of this type are currently being produced and artificially aged.
The colors are off, and the style is different from ancient beads. Only slightly, but still. The blue and yellow seem too bright. I agree that it is difficult to tell for sure from a picture. A lot of it comes down to having seen a lot of truly old ones, and having seen a lot of fakes. Visiting markets in China where lots of fake beads were being sold, has been a great education for me. However, sometimes, looking at so many fakes you can become too suspicious.......

Here are some images of beads from these markets that I think are similar. (though not exactly the same)

1_IMG_1122.jpg (89.2 KB)  1_IMG_1123.jpg (94.5 KB)  


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Re: Re: Re: "Rechercher s'il vous plaît…"
Re: Re: Re: "Rechercher s'il vous plaît…" -- floorkasp Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: baca-cara Post Reply
09/04/2014, 08:45:24

floorskap,you could very well be right! But this was not the judgement in question. My husband cannot judge type of this bead, region of original production and so on. He only looked at the pictures with HIS knowledge about glass which may originate from digging. So, he only looked at the glass itself. So, the bead HAS typical marks of being deposited in ground. But one need to see this in person to be SURE. The sinter spots in fact could perhaps easily washed off (sign of fake), all the "ancient" ground deposit marks may be too irregularily distributed for the bead to haven been a real dig find, aso. And To get the entire picture, you must add your knowledge too, which is more about the bead itself and the history of faking! At least that's the way we understood your question, and that's the reason we purchased this large fake bead - we have only a part of knowledge,an important part is missing, so we have at least one blue eye - not good for questionable beads buying :)
Brigitte



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Re: Re: Re: Re: "Rechercher s'il vous plaît…"
Re: Re: Re: Re: "Rechercher s'il vous plaît…" -- baca-cara Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: floorkasp Post Reply
09/04/2014, 09:13:38

It is indeed about putting knowledge together. We all have pieces of the puzzle, and only whenever we put another piece together, we start getting the whole picture. I know very little about how glass degrades, but I have seen quite a few fakes.

About faking the 'dug up look': At the same markets, They also used a very simple way of making beads look old and coming from a dig. Just stick some brand new beads in the mud, and make it seem as if you just dug them up....

CIMG1350.jpg (64.1 KB)  CIMG1335.jpg (63.5 KB)  


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Re: Please help with bead ID
Re: Please help with bead ID -- baca-cara Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Will Post Reply
09/06/2014, 13:58:42

Some random thoughts and questions:

Thanks, everyone for this interesting thread. Sorry to be so late getting into it.

Brigitte, as you say, your bead appears to be “core-formed” - which means the glass has been trailed, shaped and marvered around a clay core. That certainly seems to be true from what one can see of the perforation. But that technique, which was used for the making of Hellenistic alabastrons in the first millennium BCE, was never, as far as I know, used for making any beads that resembled yours. Beads such as the beautiful one on Fred’s necklace are, as I understand them, wound, trailed, combed and pinched (is that the right word for the vertical indentations?), and they almost always have applied glass rings around the perforations (usually yellow, sometimes green). So like many reproductions, your bead seems to imitate the appearance but not the technique of an ancient bead.

I don’t think your bead resembles any of the reproductions of west Asian beads that I’ve seen in recent years in East Java. Sometimes it seems as though we’re attributing all the fakes that appear to Java (which I guess testifies to the adaptability of the beadmakers there), but, like Joyce and Hans, I think this bead is much more likely to be from Syria or Lebanon. It looks very similar to me to the fake alabastrons that are produced for the antiqities market. I’ll attach a photo of one that I bought there about fifteen years ago. I got it in a glass factory in Beirut for $10 or so, and later the same day I saw an almost identical one (no more convincingly aged) selling for $1300 - which would have been cheap if it had been authentic. You’ll notice how similar the cracks are to the ones in your bead, with the same residue of what I imagine is a mix of limepaste and adhesive.

As Fred says, the size of your bead ought to be one of the suspicious elements with your bead. I certainly haven’t seen an authentic one that was anything like as large. But I don’t have a problem with the yellow. Though most ancient yellow glass is a more mustardy colour, there are many lemon shades in ancient canes too.

As to the bead that you asked for opinions on, Fred, like you I have my doubts. I’ve bought authentic items from this seller in the past (not beads), and that’s always a positive factor for me. But ithe bead itself is quite puzzling. The design seems more Phoenician than Islamic in its strictness, but the glass, especially the yellow, doesn’t resemble the Phoenician glass that I know at all. (It doesn’t look like the modern Chinese copies either.) But it’s very pretty and very well done. Fred, can I ask what your own suspicions are based on?

And finally, Fred, could we please have some close-ups of that beautiful necklace?

All the best,

Will

FakeAlabastron.jpg (45.9 KB)  


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Old or New?
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Posted by: ann Post Reply
08/22/2014, 14:14:19

I have a bead that was described to me as "old," [whatever that means; I assume "not ancient"]. But the more I look at it the more I wonder if it's "old" [by that did he mean "antique?"] Or more like "not made yesterday -- made last week."

Opinions?

Islamic_Eye_2.jpg (120.8 KB)  


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Collecting fakes can be fun!
Re: Old or New? -- ann Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
08/25/2014, 14:00:49

You can make a gorgeous necklace for only ten dollars per bead.
And this is a very good way to train your eye in the beginning.
You will become better prepared to pay big money for real ones
once you become familiar with the right clues to consider.

Just Fred



Modified by Frederick II at Mon, Aug 25, 2014, 14:59:16

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Etched Carnelian beads
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Posted by: andrea - italy Post Reply
08/03/2014, 09:51:35

Hi,

I have bought these beads to a market. I would like to know if they are ancient beads or modern reproductions. Thanks

1_a.JPG (173.9 KB)  2_aa.JPG (177.7 KB)  


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Dear Dr. Andrea Ciaccheri:
Re: Etched Carnelian beads -- andrea - italy Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Just Fred Post Reply
08/06/2014, 01:40:16

Dear Dr. Andrea Ciaccheri:

In my humble opinion -without the advantage of seeing them in person-
some appear to be old glass copies of antique Burmese carnelian beads.
They are a mixed bunch & neither typical, classic, nor excellent examples.

While you are not intending to misrepresent them...
the problem is that you are trying to sell these beads;
and the descriptions and prices seem to imply too much.

Initially, you asked for opinions whether these are antique or modern.
But are you open to the opinions of advanced bead collectors?

As I understand it, this forum is for the study of beads
& I feel that we benefit by learning from disagreement.

Belle journe,
Frederick



Modified by Just Fred at Sat, Aug 09, 2014, 13:44:39

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Re: Dear Dr. Andrea Ciaccheri:
Re: Dear Dr. Andrea Ciaccheri: -- Just Fred Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: andrea - italy Post Reply
08/06/2014, 04:50:06

Hi,

I'm a seller of Chinese antiques and it is very hard work today due the fakes. I can not know everything (it is comprehensible) so when I find items I don't know I ask to experts, I also I'm ready to pay for competent expertize. I've many people help me in many fields, but I'm really at the beginning with the beads.

I've listed these beads as genuine and antique only AFTER Mr. Joyce told me on the forum these are genuine and authentic without need to handle or enlarge... so, I corrected the auction and I said they are genuine. Only you, now, and only Mr. Bompo told me about some doubt, other advanced collectors (do you know Mr. Jamey - USA) say to me these are good ancient beads.

Again, please, because I do not want to cheat no one, tell me know if these beads are antique or modern fakes (it was my first question here in the site, before to list these). If fake I will close the auction. I've listed other beads from the same necklace for to give more details (ebay nn. 390903752111 & 390903818743), with good photos, please let me know.

Regards

Andrea



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This is great reason why I left forum - people use it to own advantage!
Re: Etched Carnelian beads -- andrea - italy Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: tofsla Post Reply
08/07/2014, 06:27:47

while there are some people who love beads - there are people who use forum to sell junk and fakes, and I find it unacceptable...

Best
Tofsla



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Re: another aspect...
Re: another aspect... -- Joyce Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: andrea - italy Post Reply
08/05/2014, 22:16:22

Hei guy,

what kind of expert are you? You must to check the photos and you must not look at my words about my Chinese antiques store. Never seen such kind of analysis...

For your known, I'm and honest Italian professional seller, and I never sell fake stuff for to cheat people. I've asked many opinions, and for all these beads look like good ones, for that I've listed on eBay. I will list other carnelian beads today from the same provenience, so you can check also these and get your idea

You can check my stuff in the store or read my feedback, and you see I'm a serious seller who NOT SELL FAKE STUFF. You should be many sure of what you say, before to suggest the people to not to buy my items

Regards

Dr. Andrea Ciaccheri



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YOU ARE PEDALING FAKES!!! lets be clear... ITS FAKES!!!!
Re: Re: another aspect... -- andrea - italy Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: tofsla Post Reply
08/07/2014, 06:34:37

and all your late 19 century Tibetan statue are from Chinese factory and AND BEEN YESTERDAY MADE. check this item 261552335848 .


YOU ARE USING WONDERFUL FORUM AND GREAT PEOPLE LIKE JOICE TO YOUR OWN $$$ GAINS!


Related link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/261552335848
Modified by tofsla at Thu, Aug 07, 2014, 06:39:43

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Re: YOU ARE PEDALING FAKES!!! lets be clear... ITS FAKES!!!!
Re: YOU ARE PEDALING FAKES!!! lets be clear... ITS FAKES!!!! -- tofsla Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Andrea - Italy Post Reply
08/07/2014, 07:57:14

Now here arrive the bronze expert. I smile reading you

Please take a good look at the site Asian Art Forum, you will find many my bronzes with the replay where there is the same dating I give in auction. Please to speak with Mr. Michael Staley - USA - mcsnotts@hotmail.com - my expert over Hindu bronze, you have to learn very much from him. If you like, I'm also ready to bet with you the amount you want over the bronze you want. We will ask 3 expertize; do you agree???

People like you who declare fake item of other person, without any minimum competence, are not useful for me. Like you do not write



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Thank you very much for this info, Tofsla....
Re: This is great reason why I left forum - people use it to own advantage! -- tofsla Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Joyce Post Reply
08/07/2014, 07:00:40

sometimes we get used to see if certain items are "good enough" to pass muster with collectors. It is unfortunate. Sometimes it is very hard to tell without the item in hand, using a loupe.

PLEASE do not leave the forum!!! We need you.



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Re: Thank you very much for this info, Tofsla....
Re: Thank you very much for this info, Tofsla.... -- Joyce Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Andrea - Italy Post Reply
08/07/2014, 08:30:32

I'm not using Mr Joice or others. I'm not using a wonderful site for my profit and my gain. If someone would know me no one would say so. My only goal is understand if these carnelian beads are genuine or not. But the answer (a serious answer) seems not arrive here.

With ebay and with the forum I've showed to you almost 50 beads of the same provenience. I've enlarge the photo with about 20X. No one is able to declare only one beads if fake. At today most of the person told me these are good ones, I've known only about 3 doubts.

Who say are made in glass. I've tested a bead with my gem refractometer I utilize for jade and it is not glass, is agate. The other doubts are about the uneven white lines and the large holes. I reflect. If these beads are not genuine are a very high quality of fake, where all the chips are really with wear and dirty. Very well worked fakes. Why doing so good quality of fake, the faker would have chose to do bad line or inappropriate hole - they are too evident. I sorry it doesn't go, also this doubt fall down.

I repeat I've showed you over 50 beads with very good photos. In my opinion if there is not an expert able to declare these fake is because they are genuine.

I please all you to don't speak bad about me again, above all if you are not able to judge as fake my stuff. It is very offensive for an honest seller who spend very much time and money for try to list only genuine stuff.



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IMHO
Re: Re: Thank you very much for this info, Tofsla.... -- Andrea - Italy Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: lopacki Post Reply
08/07/2014, 13:28:40

Andrea,
you just stated
If these beads are not genuine are a very high quality of fake, where all the chips are really with wear and dirty. Very well worked fakes. Why doing so good quality of fake, the faker would have chose to do bad line or inappropriate hole - they are too evident. I sorry it doesn't go, also this doubt fall down.

The main reason for someone to make fakes that look real is exactly what we are talking about here. If you fake a bead and beat it up a bit make it dirty so that people think perhaps this is a real ancient bead then that person can take a three to five dollar bead and price it very high. I see this all of the time from sellers all over the world more so in Asia but not limited to that area.

When I am reading your posts and your use of the English language, I am inclined to think that you are Chinese. If this is the case what better thing for you to do to sell your fakes than get some (experts)saying they feel what you have is indeed authentic.

Not one of the people on this forum can give an honest answer regarding your beads or any other beads from an image, the best they can do is make an opinion from photographs.

I am 99.9% sure your listing 390902967911 is indeed not what you say it is. I can go on ebay and find this type bead in quantity out of Thailand any day for very cheap. As Mr. Joyce says buyer beware!!

All my best ......... Danny



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About: Etched Carnelian beads
Re: Etched Carnelian beads -- andrea - italy Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: shinji Post Reply
08/08/2014, 22:18:55

Hello Andrea

You are cool guy.(not only in the photo)
And I know you are not the man who is trying to sell fakes as antique.
I'm an antique dealer also.
So I understand your current feeling.

And I believe almost people in this forum already noticed that you are not the man who is trying to sell fakes as antique.

I can't judge your statues because I'm not an expert of them.
(They look good for me in person.)

Anyway I think that your carnelian beads are difficult home work to judge only from pictures.
So I may be wrong.

I feel there are two types of carnelian beads in your pictures.
One type(type A) is beads marked with green line.
Another(type B) is without green line.

Type A looks regular type of ancient etched Carnelian beads to me.
Type B looks irregular type to me.

Type B looks deferent from etched Carnelian beads which I have dealed with as ancient.
So I feel something strange on Type B.
It does not mean Type B is fake, because I don't know everything like you.
But if I were you,I don't buy type B to sell.
Beccause I can expect that many beads people will have same feeling with me.

I will post a picture of anceint Carnelian bead (which many people belive as ancient).
It's different from yours(type B).
Yours(type B) may have been made in diffrent place or different age in ancient age,but they(type B) look different from normal ancient one at least.
I think that is the reason why nobody can judge yours are ancient in this forum.

Please check them carefully with lupe.
Isn't there any difference between type A and type B?
(Of course Type B can be ancient as Jamey judged.)

Anyway Please don't leave this forum.
Your first post was very delicate matter...
But this forum is a great forum in beads world.
I'm sure this forum will help you as far as you deal with beads.

Shinji

eched2.jpg (170.4 KB)  DSC_00012014-08-09_13-56-59.JPG (98.0 KB)  


Modified by shinji at Sat, Aug 09, 2014, 07:49:09

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Re: About: Etched Carnelian beads
Re: About: Etched Carnelian beads -- shinji Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Andrea - Italy Post Reply
08/08/2014, 23:01:58

Hi Shin Ji,

very thanks. Probably you and Jamey are the unique believe me here. Thanks also for your very interesting points I will study and reflect on them. Here I only update you (Jamey already know) about these beads. Feeling me still not sure with these, yesterday, I contacted the best Italian beads seller. I met him time ago and I bought from him the 8 genuine small dzi I've in my web store. Please to visit his store on eBay and you can understand he is a very big seller of beads (ID. paropamiso.gioielli). Well yesterday I asked him help about my 3 auctions about carnelian agate, I advise him that in the forum people say are modern fakes maybe, to be much careful, and today he replay to me saying everything is good and at good price and he places a bid on my first auction. What have I to think??? I really hope he won these and I really want to know his opinion after received

Regards

Andrea



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Re: Re: About: Etched Carnelian beads
Re: Re: About: Etched Carnelian beads -- Andrea - Italy Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: shinji Post Reply
08/09/2014, 00:12:28

Hi

Jamey is speciall, I'm normall.There's big difference.
And there are some more specials in this forum.

I know the seller in ebay.
I also want to know his opinion.
If he get them,let us know his opinion here.

By the way where did you get your carnelian beads?
In China?

Shinji (Japanese)



Modified by shinji at Sat, Aug 09, 2014, 07:38:47

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Re: Re: Re: About: Etched Carnelian beads
Re: Re: Re: About: Etched Carnelian beads -- shinji Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Andrea - Italy Post Reply
08/09/2014, 01:13:16

Hi,

I'm new here, for me you all are at the same. I'm learning to know them through the replays...

I got a long necklace of all striped carnelian beads from an Italian seller of Milan. Are about 70-90 beads, still not counted, most very small. I can get this necklace for Euro 350.

This seller is strange for me. He is a Doctor who sell beads and antiques during the weekend only for passion. Very many people appraise him and buy from him, and he has many items from auctions. He doesn't look like a doctor, but is very prepared speaking with him. He collect Mediterranean area items and he confess to me to don't know the Asiatic art even if he sells also this. I bought from him, time ago, a Warring States eyed glass beads necklace (Euro 400) and a Zhou dynasty jade (350 Euro). But they were both modern fakes. We discussed much, he asked excuse and he offered money back, but I didn't take them. Now he gives me this necklace as part of compensation and say to me this is ancient of 3rd century made with natron, he price it Euro 350, if I want... I've to decide before mid September

This is the true, I think he is honest but maybe mix the things with others. He know I will detect the fakes and I will give back it if so. Better if some expert can say his opinion



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Re: Re: Re: About: Etched Carnelian beads
Re: Re: Re: About: Etched Carnelian beads -- shinji Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Andrea - Italy Post Reply
08/09/2014, 01:33:19

Hi,

for how the things goes, for prudence, for seriousness, for fear also, I can not buy old Chinese Stuff from China. For the same reason I never buy from South Asia the ancient stuff. Too dangerous; needs a preparation I've not, it is not for me. I buy from China items which I can sell here as Chinese art, independently from the age, items like carved glass snuff bottle, modern jade pendant, rare wood carved, and so

However, ascertained I'm not Chinese, I have to say I know many Chinese person and I've many Chinese friends. Not all Chinese are ready to cheat or to make fakes. Most of them are the victims of Chinese fakers like us.



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It's okay,
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: About: Etched Carnelian beads -- Andrea - Italy Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Joyce Post Reply
08/09/2014, 14:23:14

Andrea, I also thought you were a Chinese girl, until I found you on Italian "LinkedIn".



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Re: It's okay,
Re: It's okay, -- Joyce Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Andrea - Italy Post Reply
08/22/2014, 01:48:28

Hi Joyce,

I'm Andrea from Italy. Today I've gotten back the etched carnelian beads from the Italian expert. He says the beads with 4 & 2 stripes are fakes and the beads with single stripe are genuine. Jamey has seen few of these beads from real and he agree also.

I would like to send to you 3 of these beads (4+2+1+stripe) as gift. Please let me know your address or an address where I can send these to you

Best regards

Andrea (bazaar73@alice.it - aylandxxx@infinito.it)



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Indoneasian bead info please.
Post Reply Edit View All Forum
Posted by: lopacki Post Reply
08/15/2014, 13:45:19

Last year at Tucson a good friend of mine walked by and threw a small leather bag to me and said here’s a gift for you and Suzi, Richard has had it on consignment for twenty years. Well this is the bead and I am 99% sure it is Indonesian.

I feel this is not a newer bead for these reasons. The quality of the work is far above anything seen in most current production including construction, quality of the canes, quality of overall glass work.

I would like the hear thoughts from all out there that know far more about this type bead than I. I already established it was older than twenty years I would like to hear your ideas in regards to its age.

Bead size
28.8mm diameter 22.6mm long

All my best .............. Danny

P.S. Do you see a bird image in the cane?

3_indo.jpg (78.0 KB)  


Modified by lopacki at Fri, Aug 15, 2014, 13:45:47

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Jatim bird beads
Re: Indoneasian bead info please. -- lopacki Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Will Post Reply
08/16/2014, 13:33:42

Hi Danny,

I agree with Flor. It doesn't look like an ancient Jatim bead to me; more like some of the repros that were being made ten or twelve years ago. My main reason for saying this is that the perforation and the area around it are unlike any genuine Jatim I've come across, and unlike most of the more recent fakes. Also, the construction of the cane and the colour seem wrong. If you get a chance to look at pages 100 and 101 in Jamey Allen's Magical Ancient Beads, or page 73 in Manik Manik di Indonesia by Adhyatman and Arifin (still a very useful book), you'll see the difference, I'm sure.

I'll attach too a photo of the most famous Jatim bead of all: Korean National Treasure #634, which was found in a royal grave in Korea that can be dated to the late 5th-early 6th centuries. With its face and bird canes, it shows how developed bead making was in Java in that early period. There's a fine, elegant essay about this bead by James Lankton in the proceedings of the 2007 International Bead Conference in Istanbul.

Cheers,

Will

1_NT634.jpg (51.3 KB)  


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Etched Carnelian, Chung dZi or modern fakes ???
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Posted by: andrea - italy Post Reply
08/06/2014, 05:29:45

Hi,
I would like to know if this lot of very small beads are Etched Carnelian, Chung dZi or instead modern fakes. Thanks

2_a1.JPG ( bytes)  1_b2.JPG (169.2 KB)  


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Re: Etched Carnelian, Chung dZi or modern fakes ???
Re: Etched Carnelian, Chung dZi or modern fakes ??? -- andrea - italy Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: shinji Post Reply
08/09/2014, 01:33:24

These beads look like type A (ancient beads) to me.



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Re: Re: Etched Carnelian, Chung dZi or modern fakes ???
Re: Re: Etched Carnelian, Chung dZi or modern fakes ??? -- shinji Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Andrea - Italy Post Reply
08/09/2014, 05:30:04

Hi Shin Ji,

thanks also here. For me is very important also to know if these beads are Chung dzi or etched carnelian, because selling Chinese items, if dzi are Tibetan and I can list in my store, if etched carnelian are from Burma, and my web store is not the appropriate section. If dzi (if genuine) I prefer to keep and to list slowly in my store, if not dzi I prefer to sell them (always if genuine...) quickly on eBay

In this photo on the post I had selected the less transparent beads, I don't know if due the boiling (if dzi) or naturally

Regards

Andrea



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Re: Re: Re: Etched Carnelian, Chung dZi or modern fakes ???
Re: Re: Re: Etched Carnelian, Chung dZi or modern fakes ??? -- Andrea - Italy Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: bonpo Post Reply
08/09/2014, 06:35:32

its a Carnelian that is artificially Etched or Decorated.

that's all to it.

if you take these to the Himalayas it will be considered to be part of Chung dzi family. in the western world it will be called Etched Carnelian, in China or Burma or Thailand something else etc.

its like calling a Apple, pomme,mela,Apfel, or whatever..

no need to go in a deep sense.



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Re: Re: Re: Etched Carnelian, Chung dZi or modern fakes ???
Re: Re: Re: Etched Carnelian, Chung dZi or modern fakes ??? -- Andrea - Italy Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: shinji Post Reply
08/09/2014, 07:11:46

Hi

Please call me "Shinji" (not Shin Ji) haha.

Bonpo has pointed everything already.

Your beads in the picture can not be called "Chung dzi" in international beads market like ebay.
"Chung dzi" and "Etched Carnelian" are suposed to be made in different process.
If you are interested in it,it's better to ask about it to Jamey.

Shinji



Modified by shinji at Sat, Aug 09, 2014, 07:19:57

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Etched Carnelian, Chung dZi or modern fakes ???
Re: Re: Re: Re: Etched Carnelian, Chung dZi or modern fakes ??? -- shinji Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Andrea - Italy Post Reply
08/10/2014, 02:28:56

Hi, Shinji,

sorry to mistaken your name, I thought it was an elegance to separate the 2 pinyin characters.

As I've told to Jamey, tomorrow I will send a lot of 50 of these beads (most Type B) to this good Italian seller. I've advised him to be much careful and prudent and I've said to him to contact Jamey (they are friend - Jamey really know all the beads sellers in the world). This seller has insisted to pay and to get also the lot has won on ebay and he already says me he is sure they are genuine. Tomorrow I will also send few beads to Jamey for to study. If these 2 experts will say these are fakes I will send back all the beads to the seller, otherwise, if genuine, I will gift a pair of these (Type A & B) to you and other pair to Joyce to do the peace; then let me know your opinions too. The problem will be if the experts won't agree...

With all these small etched carnelian you see in the main photo there were also a very dark brown bead (to see the photo in attached) which I really seems to me a dzi due the strong contrast of color. If so I asked me if could be others dzi mixed in this selected lot of not transparent beads. I know etched carnelian are made with natron and dzi with boiled sugar, but I can not recognize it.

Andrea

3_aa.JPG (150.7 KB)  bb.JPG (76.2 KB)  


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Egyptian beads?
Post Reply Edit View All Forum
Posted by: Barbara Post Reply
06/10/2014, 02:30:35

I would value your opinion of this necklace:


Related link: http://www.collector-antiquities.com/18/?vitem=3912&pcat=11

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Re: Egyptian beads? And a Jemdet Nasr seal...
Re: Egyptian beads? -- Barbara Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Will Post Reply
06/11/2014, 01:51:44

Hi Barbara,

Bron, the man who runs this site, is one of the most respected antiquities dealers around. He's a great source of information and he's very actively involved in trying to draw attention to the dealers who sell fakes, either from ignorance or fraudulent intent. His prices are maybe rather high, but you can trust him, and that's worth paying extra for, I think. I've always been more than pleased with anything I've bought from him.

Cheers,

Will

Attached: A Jemdet Nasr stamp seal about 5,000 years old.

JemdetNasr422a.jpg (36.6 KB)  


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Please help ID this bead.
Post Reply Edit View All Forum
Posted by: Mor Post Reply
06/02/2014, 23:22:55

Hello,

I bought it from my friend in Bangkok on 3 years ago. He told me that the ancient bead. The dimension is about 34 mm.x 24 mm. and material is glass. I would like to get your assistance in advising what type of this bead, age,origin and ancient or not.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Mor

DSC_20561-horz.jpg (164.5 KB)  DSC_20591.jpg (120.2 KB)  


Modified by Mor at Mon, Jun 02, 2014, 23:24:13

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Questions
Re: Please help ID this bead. -- Mor Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Will Post Reply
06/03/2014, 09:03:13

Hi Mor,

Belated greeting on my part.

This is a fascinating, curious bead. I don't think it's ancient, and it's certainly not an ancient Southeast Asian bead. The bearded face in profile looks like a modern image to me. I'm still trying to figure out how the bead has been made. It seems to be trying to fit into a tradition of West Asian folded beads, but of course it's not folded. Do you think the black pattern has been overlaid on top of the white glass or has the design been cut into the glass and filled with an oily black material? I'm reminded slightly of the technique that was used in early fakes of Jatim polychrome beads from Java where a monochrome bead was used as a base and the design was cut into it and filled with quite convincing coloured inlays. This is not the same - not at all - and I haven't seen a bead like yours in any of my trips to Java, but it occurs to me that the technique might be similar.

In any case, this is not a fake, since it's not trying to replicate any known ancient bead. It's clever and interesting in its own right. I hope we'll be able to find out more about it.

All the best,

Will



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Trip report!
Post Reply Edit Forum
Posted by: floorkasp Post Reply
05/22/2014, 07:23:00

Finally settled in at home, after two months of great travel.
The trip went as follows: Hongkong, train to Beijing, train to Shanghai, ferry to Osaka, Kyoto, Kobe, ferry back to Shanghai, train back to Beijing, then off to my sister in Australia and back to Beijing, before I headed home.

It was not a trip specifically to a bead place, but I sure did get to see a lot of great and fun beads.

I have taken many many pictures, especially of the markets. I can never get enough of these, but perhaps they are not for all of you..... If you are bored, just skip ;-)

Anyway......here they are:

I think the main event for me was the Panjiayuan market in Beijing. I have shown pictures of it before, and so have others. There are very few genuine antiques to be found there now, but for me it is interesting for two reasons. The first is the sale of beads made from natural materials, like seeds, nuts, stone, amber. Many of these beads are used as prayer beads, and some mostly for good luck. It is absolutely fascinating for me to watch people closely inspecting beads for patterns, symmetry, beauty, etc. I have to say, on this trip I pretty much fell for natural beads too, instead of glass beads.
The second reason why the Panjiayuan is so interesting is because of the abundance of fakes or replicas. Obviously, you do not want to accidently buy a fake bead. This market has been a great learning ground for me to see all the fakes around. The way they are made, displayed and artificially aged. When asking dealers about them, the only answer usually is 'Old' or 'Very old'. And with my lack of Chinese, I never really can tell if they believe a bead they are selling is old or not.

bcnchina01.jpg (78.7 KB)  bcnchina02.jpg (102.5 KB)  


Modified by floorkasp at Thu, May 22, 2014, 07:24:44

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copal? new or old?
Post Reply Edit View All Forum
Posted by: mcbead Post Reply
05/21/2014, 03:51:26

i can buy these...any comment is welcome!
its deff. not amber and also no phenol.i have 1 strand and i burned 1 bead
so i know the smell..seller bought them in nepal.
Does anyone know if there are new copal beads being sold like these?
thanks MAx Mc Bead

IMG_5075.JPG (109.7 KB)  IMG_5076.JPG (128.2 KB)  


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Red has been informing us....
Re: copal? new or old? -- mcbead Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Joyce Post Reply
05/21/2014, 06:18:49

Many good looking fakes are appearing now as genuine amber has sometimes surpassed the cost of gold.....the repairs on the ones you show are suspect for sure.


Related link: http://ethnicjewelsmagazine.com/fossil-amber-beads-a-developing-story/

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Re: copal? new or old?
Re: copal? new or old? -- mcbead Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Floorkasp Post Reply
05/21/2014, 10:21:16

I am not very knowledgable about amber, but to me they look like some type of plastic or resin beads that are newly made. Especially the ones with the metal repairs make me weary. Old and treasured amber beads sometimes have been repaired, but it is now something that is copied rather crudely in fake amber beads. From what I can tell (again, not very knowledgable about amber) these types of fakes are pretty abundant in Morocco and I have seen them in Tucson too.I do not think they are copal, for the reasons that Rosanna stated in her reply.

I also do not think they match the 'new generation fakes' that Red is referring to in the article, she describes sliced beads, and not these oval ones. I think I may have seen some of these types of fakes in Beijing, and will post pictures later.



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Ancient or fakes?
Post Reply Edit View All Forum
Posted by: faqrun Post Reply
05/03/2014, 02:39:49

roman_bead.jpg (148.5 KB)  roman_bead2.jpg (68.0 KB)  


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Re: Ancient or fakes?
Re: Ancient or fakes? -- faqrun Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Stefany Post Reply
05/03/2014, 06:44:33

Hi-
i saw them and some others coming up in an auction and to me these ones seem real and in rather good condition...
let us know and show more pictures of them, if you get them!



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Re: Re: Ancient or fakes?
Re: Re: Ancient or fakes? -- Stefany Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: TASART Post Reply
05/03/2014, 07:33:30

I have reservations, the glass has the appearance of Indonesian reproductions.



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Re: Re: Re: Ancient or fakes?
Re: Re: Re: Ancient or fakes? -- TASART Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: faqrun Post Reply
05/03/2014, 09:22:12

I found them in an american auction at the starting price of $200. I think they are suspicious.



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They are fakes but not Indonesian productions I think.
Re: Ancient or fakes? -- faqrun Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: shinji Post Reply
05/03/2014, 19:03:02

Thier quorities are different from Indonesian newly made mosaic beads.

And we can find some more fake mosaic beads in the auction.

Unfortunatelly the Mosaic bowl in The following picture was sold as ancient one in e-bay recently.
It has same mosaic with the bead int this thred.

Shinji

mosaicbowl.jpg (157.7 KB)  


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Re: They are fakes but not Indonesian productions I think.
Re: They are fakes but not Indonesian productions I think. -- shinji Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick Post Reply
05/04/2014, 11:58:30

Shinji and Joyce,

If possible, please provide links to the auctions you have mentioned.

Thanks,

Frederick

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Re: Ancient or fakes?
Re: Ancient or fakes? -- faqrun Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Floorkasp Post Reply
05/04/2014, 00:53:53

The top one does look like one of the latest generation Indonesian replicas to me. The other one, I do not know.



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Re: Re: Ancient or fakes?
Re: Re: Ancient or fakes? -- Floorkasp Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: shinji Post Reply
05/04/2014, 18:49:32

Hi Floorkasp

If "the latest generation " means 2014 version,I have no idea.
(I have not visited there this year yet.)

I can say I have never seen that kind of mosaic beads in Java until September 2013.

And the same kind of fake(the top one) appeared in market in 2012 at least.
The quality of "the top one" is much better than Indonesian mosaic beads made in those days.
And it looks to be made by different process from Indonesian mosaic beads.

The first picture is the one that appeared in market in 2012.
The sencond picture is Indonesian mosaic beads made in 2012.

Shinji

DSC_000120120106_161108.JPG (119.9 KB)  DSCF49982014-05-05_10-58-26.JPG (94.9 KB)  


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Indonesian
Re: Ancient or fakes? -- faqrun Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Will Post Reply
05/04/2014, 23:00:38

Hi everyone,

I hesitate to disagree with Shinji because he knows this stuff so well, but on the first bead at least I think Thomas, Frederick and Floor are right. I can't be sure about the second without seeing the ends.

The first, anyway, appears to be hot-pinched, and that traditional Javanese technique, as far as I know, is only used there for manufacturing these fake "Roman" mosaic beads. The structure of the bead reveals its source.

The colours are typical of Javanese canes too, especially the brown glass which has too little red in it. Incidentally, the colours seem to me to be the same both in the US auction item (which went for $500 - ouch!), and in the replica bead that Shinji found in Java. All that appears different to me is the amount of acid exposure they've been subjected to. The colours in the bowl that Shinji shows seem more typically "Roman" to me.

Actually, I disagree with both Frederick and Shinji on one thing and that is that the canes of authentic West Asian mosaic examples of these beads are more regular in structure. Quite often it's just the opposite, surely. I don't have any examples here to show or refer to unfortunately, but I think we'll find that the black framing glass in the Javanese beads is of a more uniform thickness than in the genuine items, and the patterns generally more regular.

Thanks, Roger, for starting this.

Cheers,

Will



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Re: Indonesian
Re: Indonesian -- Will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Shinji Post Reply
05/05/2014, 08:04:14

Hi will

It's always pleasure for me to talk with you here.
And thank you for your hesitation.

I have seen several hundreds kinds of mosaic beads newly made in Java,
But the quality of the top one don't look any new Indonesian mosaic beads I have seen.

That's the only reason why I can't stop believing I'm right.
So if someone show me the right examples I can change my mind easily
in this case.
Have you ever seen that kind of beads made in Java?

By the way the patina on the bowl looks artificial to me.
And quality of mosaic is same as the beads to me.
I think both(the bowl and beads) are fakes and the source of the bowl and the beads are same.
And the source is not Java.
Javanese don't make that kind of bowl as far as I know.
I don't know anyone who could make that kind of beads in Java 2 years ago.
This is my current idea.

The following is a reference.

I know the reason why that kind of Roman style mosaic beads appeared in Java suddenly.
They didn't know about that kind of beads before.
3-4 years ago one Japanese guy who can speak Javanese tried to start new business in Indonesia.
He brought some books about old beads from Japan and stayed at local village in east Java for several months and tried local beads maker to imitate popular ancient beads.
At first those kinds of beads were being sold only in Japan.
But they started to make more and more and tried to sell to other people.(This is normal way...)
Nowadays you can get them easily as much as you want.


Shinji



Modified by Shinji at Mon, May 05, 2014, 08:57:10

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Re: Ancient or fakes?
Re: Ancient or fakes? -- faqrun Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: ancient beads Post Reply
05/05/2014, 10:07:35

Hello
I am pretty sure that both beads are fake.
I don't know where they are from.
Please find attached original beads photos(from my collection) in two versions for a comparison.
All the best,
Yankee.

12_Roman_period_64_BC-330_AD_._1.jpg (105.2 KB)  


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Re: Re: Ancient or fakes?
Re: Re: Ancient or fakes? -- ancient beads Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: ancient beads Post Reply
05/08/2014, 08:46:20

12_Roman_period_64_BC-330_AD_Egypto_Roman_Eastern_Mediterranean_1st_2nd_AD_Checkerboard_bead._Early_Roman_period_and_Later.6.jpg (115.4 KB)  


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Fakes
Re: Ancient or fakes? -- faqrun Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: sisterray Post Reply
05/05/2014, 12:09:02

I, too, saw them (although I hadn't remembered where I saw them) and I decided they were fakes. I can post several examples of authentic ancient mosaic beads if anyone is interested. But I'm afraid I'll be taking pictures from my iPad, as I don't have a working camera at the moment.

Rachel



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Thank you, Joyce and David!
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Posted by: Uwe Post Reply
05/02/2014, 00:45:01

birthdaybcn.jpg (156.0 KB)  


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Thank you, Joyce and David!
Re: Thank you, Joyce and David! -- Uwe Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: TASART Post Reply
05/03/2014, 06:48:26

Uwe, always the artist! Nice assemblage.....and of course, yes, a very happy birthday to BCN and thanks to all the contributors.....and of course Joyce and David who brought this to the web for all to enjoy

k_b_poly.jpg (96.7 KB)  


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Here's looking at you!!!
Re: Thank you, Joyce and David! -- TASART Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: JohnnyAppleBead Post Reply
05/04/2014, 07:18:59

Joyce & David ~ Mahalo...Obrigado....our Great Thanks and appreciation for this wonderful forum where we meet, share smiles...learn from each other.....view some really excellent beads...and even fakes! My mornings and days are fuller and more fun because of BCN. Enjoy your accomplishment and our gratitude!

DSCN1040.JPG (150.0 KB)  IMG_6048.JPG (149.3 KB)  


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We've talked about fake bead materials before
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Posted by: Russ Nobbs Post Reply
04/28/2014, 16:05:07

I collected some of the info about imitation and enhanced stones and put them in a simplified form with pictures.

Are all beads from China fakes? How can you tell turquoise from magnesite? What does "stabilized turquoise" mean? Find some answers at the latest Rings & Things blog entry.
http://www.rings-things.com/blog/2014/04/28/how-can-you-tell-if-gemstone-beads-are-genuine-or-imitation


Related link: Imitation vs real gem materials

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Maybe also compressed azurite-malachite?
Re: The missing picture -- Russ Nobbs Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Anansi Post Reply
05/02/2014, 04:24:15

Dear Russ,hope you can help me with the ID of this block. I already had my doubt about it. Bought the block a few months ago in Morocco and I know a lot of the "stones" they offer in Morocco are dyed but this one looked good. Seeing your picture I'm afraid it may also be 'faux', and not the real azurite and malachite they promised me.

Nel

Malachiet_en_azuriet,_voorzijde.jpg (90.9 KB)  Backsite_with_malachiet_en_azuriet.jpg (150.2 KB)  


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I'd also guess natural
Re: Maybe also compressed azurite-malachite? -- Anansi Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Russ Nobbs Post Reply
05/02/2014, 23:27:14

It looks like real rock to me.

The compressed block made with lapis and malachite rarely has an host rock as these do.

The piece sticking up out of the first picture is a little suspicious, only because it's a common practice to salt a specimen by gluing a crystal or a 2nd piece of stone to make it more interesting. If that were the case you might be able to see some glue around the base of the outcropping.

Pictures of salted specimens show up regularly in the The fakes and frauds section of Mindat.org



Modified by Russ Nobbs at Fri, May 02, 2014, 23:31:26

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Warring states?
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Posted by: Floorkasp Post Reply
04/06/2014, 03:46:15

At the moment I am in Beijing, part of a long trip through Asia. Went to the big antiques market here, Panjiayuan. It is know for it's fakes, and for lots of beads used for religious purposes. Jade, turquoise, agates, Zi beads, more than you ever seen together.
Struggling with posting pictures, as I did not bring my laptop.
Here is one I wanted to show you though. Between the many many fakes, I saw this beads, which to me looks like a genuine Warring States Period bead. Any thoughts on it? Did not buy it, but I am tempted..... It was translucent bright blue, and it had one or two eyes missing. The hole was big, and parts of the dots appear to have the typical decay.
Sorry about the fingers in the picture.....

88_image.jpg (80.2 KB)  


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Please don't shoot the messenger, but...
Re: Re: Warring states? -- sisterray Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick Post Reply
04/06/2014, 19:12:51

Hi Rachel and Floor,

I'm sure I've spent at least ninety days shopping for antique and ancient beads in China. And I bought a number of these. And I trusted that they were probably Warring States, or at least antique copies. However, my doubts have increased for a number of reasons...

Years ago at Bead Expo in Santa Fe, a prominent Chinese magazine publisher and expert said "The large number of beads like these -which I had been pouring over in a well respected dealer's booth- were fake." I've never regretted walking away from these and this type.

Whenever looking at Chinese "antiques," it is advised to be suspicious from the beginning. But buying the piece provides good study material for comparison; this is the tuition you must pay in order to begin looking for clues. Notice the even patination and "calcification" in the gunky whitish areas.

Even the famous Summerfield Warring States horned eye bead has come into question. Sleuthing is part of the fun.

Good luck in China,

Frederick

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Thanks!
Re: Please don't shoot the messenger, but... -- Frederick Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Floorkasp Post Reply
04/07/2014, 04:07:39

It is tricky to get into a new type of beads, as you are less likely to get it right the first time. The signs on this one were good, when it comes to context. This dealer had no (very) obvious fakes, and some other interesting genuine beads that I do recognize. Some Venetian millefioris, some Islamic eye beads and a genuine 7 layer chevron bead.

There are many obvious fake Warring States beads to be found on this market, and this was the only one of this type I could see.

I am off to Shanghai at the end of the week, where the glass museum has an exhibit on the Warring State beads, aka dragonfly eye beads. Perhaps after that exhibit, I will know more. Also, in Tucson, I was able to touch and inspect up close Bassem's Warring States beads, which is a good way to get to know them.

I know it's kinda not done on here, but if there is anyone who could give me somewhat of a pricerange for a bead like this, I would appreciate it. There are a few Warring States for sale, but they are all (I think) the other type with some type of faience or ceramic?

Any one who knows more about the pebble type stone beads?



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Re: Warring states?---Some of my thoughts...
Re: Warring states? -- Floorkasp Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: mosquitobay Post Reply
04/07/2014, 14:14:57

This type of bead has always been a bit of an enigma to me. I purchased several of them many years ago during the construction of the Three Gorges Dam, a time when many ancient items from China were slipping out of the country. Unfortunately it was also a great time for the selling of fake beads. Believe me the Chinese artists (at least some of them) are incredible at making the new look old.

The ones I bought came from an impeccable source in Hong Kong, that is the only reason that I bought them. I believe that this particular type, the kind where the white portion of the decoration appears to "fall out" while the remaining blue elements remain, are at least to some extent authentic. Are there fakes out there that look similar? It would not surprise me. Are they definitely Warring States period, that I cannot be entirely sure of, but I do believe mine at least were ancient Chinese glass beads and likely Warring States. If you write me directly, I will be willing to discuss prices and values.

Jan

see some examples below:

bf325a.jpg (40.0 KB)  bf325.jpg (58.2 KB)  


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I am delighted to have my first ancient zoomorphic bead!
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Posted by: jake Post Reply
03/14/2014, 01:36:11

I recently purchased this beautiful ancient from a BCN contributor. While I was compelled to acquire it truth be known I know precious little about it's origin. I did seek corroboration to which I was happily informed that it may be Tircul or potentially could even be as early as Mesopotamian? I still really don't know much. I just love the little talisman, and hope others may comment, inform, or even have a reference.

Something like 20mm long

Thank you.

1_lion_1_edited-2.jpg (125.7 KB)  
www.nomadbeads.com

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The other lion
Re: I am delighted to have my first ancient zoomorphic bead! -- jake Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: will Post Reply
03/14/2014, 12:17:27

Hi there, Jake, Jan and Frederick,

Actually, Alison, who sold Jake and me these two beads, originally posted them here on the forum in January and was brushed off with a standard comment about the fakes which are made in Southeast Asia. I didn't see that brief exchange at the time, but saw the beads when Alison put them up for sale on eBay. The images were rather hard to make out, but Jake and I corresponded with each other about them and decided they certainly seemed to be authentic - which I'm sure now they are. I think Jake ended up with the better of the two (well done, Jake!), but they're both very nice.

But authentic what? Alison had bought them in London and been told they were Pyu, but I'm a bit doubtful about that. Both beads look to me to be intended to be lions, rather than the more common tigers which are generally portrayed as being more lithe and less bulky. It's generally supposed nowadays that the range of the Indian lion never extended into Southeast Asia, but I'm really not sure that that assumption is correct. If it is, then a lion-shaped bead would have had to be imported from India or, at the very least, copied from an Indian model. In fact, carnelian lions have been found both in Thailand (at Ban Don Tha Phet and Khao Sam Kaeo) and in Samon Valley and Tircul sites in Burma. Sometimes, with the Burmese examples, it's difficult to tell the tigers from the lions; last year I finally managed to get a friend to sell me a huge (nearly 10 cm) carnelian bead that I had been coveting for fifteen years or more; he said it was a tiger; I say it's a lion. I'll try to get a vaguely in-focus image of it and post it here sometime soon. I'll also attach here an image of a lion from a gold four-sided seal that was found at Khao Sam Kaeo, the ancient port and bead-making site on the southern Thai peninsula. It's rather similar to these crystal lions, though still not the same. The epigraphy dates it to the 4th century CE, and my own guess is that it was probably made at one of the Tircul cities in Burma.

Now, back to the two crystal lions. The reason I'm doubtful about them being Burmese is that all the ancient big cat beads that I've seen from there or from elsewhere in SE Asia are either standing or crouching. I don't think I've come across a well-provenanced sitting one. That's not to say there couldn't be a variant, but somehow the carving doesn't seem Samon Valley or Tircul to me, and the style seems slightly wrong too - almost all the early Burmese beads that I know are highly symmetrical, and in mine at least (what about yours, Jake?) the head is turned to one side, and the base is off-centre also.

Where else could they be from? Well, I've seen similarly-carved but not similarly-shaped crystal beads from Gandhara sites, and the lion is certainly associated with Gandharan Buddhism. That's a possibility. And in central Asia and west Asia there are a lot of lion beads and seals. I've seen a similar sitting image of one in a report of Bactrian excavations from Central Asia and my hunch is that that is probably where these two bead might prove to have come from. It would be great if somebody here could come up with a similar example.

All the best,

Will

SEAP334as.jpg (163.9 KB)  KhaoSamKaeo-seal.jpg (38.8 KB)  


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Chung Dzi??
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Posted by: lopacki Post Reply
03/03/2014, 14:06:22

I bought this bead at least thirty years ago most likely thirty five. I have always assumed that it is truly authentic and old. Would love some feed back from all you forum members.

I did have it at Tucson and it generated plenty of interest, had one person come and look with magnification three times and am amazed I still own it.

Art looked at it and felt that it most likely is old. It has been poorly drilled from both ends.

All my best ....... Danny

P.S. There is a crack in the bead that can be seen in the first image at the upper left.

81_2.jpg (126.9 KB)  


Modified by lopacki at Mon, Mar 03, 2014, 14:09:14

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Fact: if this bead's been in Lopacki's collection for thirty years..it is an original ancient dZi...
Re: Re: Chung Dzi?? -- bonpo Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: jake Post Reply
03/04/2014, 22:37:41

www.nomadbeads.com

Modified by jake at Tue, Mar 04, 2014, 22:56:50

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Re: Fact: ...OOPS, NOT A FACT !...if this bead's been in Lopacki's collection
Re: Fact: if this bead's been in Lopacki's collection for thirty years..it is an original ancient dZi... -- jake Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: mosquitobay Post Reply
03/05/2014, 14:12:10

Hi Jake and all,

Sorry to disagree, but while the bead in question may very well be authentic (I don't choose to weigh in on that subject because it is not my field of expertise).

There have been fakes or replicas out there for much longer than 30 years. I have heard tales from some Tibetan friends of replicas being traded around as much as 100 years ago and maybe older.

Here is another pretty good fake:

Jan

Dzi-21a.jpg (24.4 KB)  


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6 layer chevron strand w/ Peace Medal - Need appraisal help
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Posted by: Mel H Post Reply
02/05/2014, 14:22:04

Hey everyone, sorry I haven't posted in a while, life has been pretty tough for me the past few months and I have been holed-up waiting for the storm to pass. But, my fortunes have taken a decided up-tick. I am attaching some photos of a huge 6-7 layer chevron assemblage with a Peace Medal. I probably need to get a professional appraisal done, what are your thoughts?

12_002.jpg (144.2 KB)  8_004.jpg (152.6 KB)  


Modified by Mel H at Wed, Feb 05, 2014, 15:55:08

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Re: 6 layer chevron strand w/ Peace Medal - Need appraisal help
Re: 6 layer chevron strand w/ Peace Medal - Need appraisal help -- Mel H Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Jim Johnson Post Reply
02/05/2014, 21:02:29

One thing is for sure re Peace Medals.....there are many thousands of fakes out there for every real item. There are several excellent books available over Ebay or Amazon re how to tell real from repro medals sold as real.Real US Peace Medals were made of copper and Silver....never bronze or pewter.
Is yours real silver or pewter or even German silver? That will tell you something quickly.
I will let the Chevron experts comment on the 6 layer chevrons.



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Help please?
Post Reply Edit Forum
Posted by: hotscotish Post Reply
01/09/2014, 19:09:10

Hi!
I would like to add some of this in my shop -the ones with the faces no the hebron-, and keep one or two for myself, anyway I saw a great post in here about the fakes and I saw the one with protuberances is a "fake" or aged or well... something like that and I guess the others might be too, but Just in case, before adding them for 10 bucks, is any of this by any chance a no fake possibility?
Thanks in advance!!!

WP_20140109_145.jpg (144.4 KB)  WP_20140109_124.jpg (129.1 KB)  
Maria

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very rare artisan-made beads indeed-
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Posted by: Stefany Post Reply
12/31/2013, 19:21:00

and they wont be here for very long...
they were a gift at my new years eve party -handmade by the craftsperson herself-
just had to post the pic before going to bed...
-more info in the morning...



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the picture vanished! here it is-
Re: very rare artisan-made beads indeed- -- Stefany Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Stefany Post Reply
01/01/2014, 01:15:08

beads4newyear.jpg (170.9 KB)  


Modified by Stefany at Wed, Jan 01, 2014, 01:17:44

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Fakes! Copies of Majapahit Era beads from a Borobodur excavation!
Re: the picture vanished! here it is- -- Stefany Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick Post Reply
01/01/2014, 08:36:29

Were these created recently in east Java, unwittingly sold as authentic? And smuggled through customs...disguised as delicacies?

Frederick

Modified by Frederick at Thu, Jan 02, 2014, 02:59:32

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A Mandela bead ?
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Posted by: frank Post Reply
12/06/2013, 08:38:11

Societies have always expressed important intangibles within beads and I wonder if our bead tradition is still alive enough to do that . At times I feel as if we are witnessing an autopsy in the only approach we seem to have to beads .



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Re: A Mandela bead ?
Re: A Mandela bead ? -- frank Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: frank Post Reply
12/06/2013, 19:08:17

Beads historically reflected hierarchies in many cultures. Mandela was not very enamored with some hierarchies and is probably at the forefront of a new long term trend of democratization , politically and economically in the world..
If we are going to look at hierarchies in a different manner how are beads going to fit in ? I consider the Chinese bead production to be largely dead. Technically they are wonderful but the beads seem meaningless , totally divorced from any culture other than a commercial culture. I love old beads as well but they are in a way foreign , a hand reaching from the past that we cannot quite grasp culturally.
What I am wondering is : Can we make new bead styles that have cultural as well as aesthetic significance ? I would love to see a universally desired bead type named after Mandela. It would prove to me that we still care about beads as a living tradition that includes a new vision on the meaning of contemporary beads . Paradigm shifts only occur in living , vibrant cultural realms and I hope that the living bead tradition can make that shift and become more than decoration again.



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Re: Re: A Mandela bead ?
Re: Re: A Mandela bead ? -- frank Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: paigar Post Reply
12/07/2013, 08:24:38

I wholeheartedly disagree with the statement that "...Chinese beads are like Italian glass of the European expansion...."

To me these Chinese 'craftsmen' are doing nothing but copying established old beads for the purpose of flooding the market with fakes. There is nothing new or important about their bead making as stated in Frank's post. Yes, for the sake of argument the Italians copied the forerunners of their beads but then they took glass bead making into hundreds of different directions. Chevron beads, wedding cake beads, fancy beads, multi-murine beads, etc., etc. The Chinese beads of old had many variations and are unique to the times. This new Chinese stuff is nothing to be excited about IMHO. They are fakes and/or reproductions now and they will still be fakes in 100 years. I would think that the Chinese bead makers of old would be ashamed to be associated with what is being passed of as bead artistry now. Then again on the flip side of this argument: could this be the result of the Chinese culture being under Communist rule? Perhaps free thinking is not allowed but copying true to form is encouraged and by law all that is allowed.

As a contrast look at the Indian bead making over the years. A lot of their beads are pretty far out but they are unique to the times and to their bead making artistry. Even what is trying to be passed off as Venetian on eBay looks similar but they are not exacting replicas of Venetian beads. Just food for thought and again my own humble opinion.



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If you like,visit our FB-page
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Posted by: shinji Post Reply
11/13/2013, 23:12:12

I started to open a part of our collection little by little in our FB-page(follow the link below).
If you are interested in ,visit our FB-page and leave messages.

The picture is a strand of ancient glass beads found in Indonesia.

Just follow the link below.
SHINJI

eyebeads0.jpg (128.1 KB)  

Related link: http://www.facebook.com/pandamo.net
Modified by shinji at Wed, Nov 20, 2013, 20:09:37

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Shinji, could you describe how the decoration on the bird beads is created?
Re: If you like,visit our FB-page -- shinji Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: jake@nomaddesign Post Reply
11/21/2013, 15:56:18



Modified by jake@nomaddesign at Thu, Nov 21, 2013, 17:15:00

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OK Jake!
Re: Shinji, could you describe how the decoration on the bird beads is created? -- jake@nomaddesign Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: shinji Post Reply
11/21/2013, 18:44:31

I quote my previous post.
Because my idea about that kind of bird beads have not been changed.

They are my recent found in Java and I'm sure they are ancient glass beads except one bead.

Almost of them belong to type 3) some are type 2).
And Beads of Type 3) are transparent dark blue, beads of type 2) are opaque black in this time.

Good fakes look like type 3) exist also.

**********************************************************************
type 1) - Low quality beads
white motifs are rised on surface.
If you touch the bead ,you feel the motifs.
And after white motifs has gone out,surface is almost flat.
White motifs are not fused well into thier body.
type 1) exist much more than type 2) ans type 3)

type 2) - Midium quality beads
white motifs are rised on surface a litte bit.
If you touch the bead ,you feel the motifs a little bit.
And after white motifs has gone out,you can see the same motif as shallow trace.
White motifs are fused into thier body in shallow.

type 3)- high quality beads
White motifs are not rised on surface.
If you touch the bead ,you don't feel the rise of motifs (surface is almost smooth).
And after white motifs has gone out,you can see the same motif as trace.
It looks like carving and filled with white material as a result.
(I can't judge it's carved or fused well.)
type 3) is difficult to find compared to type 1) and type 2).

*********************************************************************



Modified by shinji at Thu, Nov 21, 2013, 18:47:12

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Does anyone have beads like these?
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Posted by: Luann Udell Post Reply
11/01/2013, 06:22:33

I was looking up ancient glass information and came across these on www.ancientbead.com. They're such a beautiful blue color! The caption says,"Wonderful blue colored glassbeads with stripes.
The square beads: Greater India - probably Maurian Period 300 B.C. - 100 A.D."

Are they affordable beads? Has anyone ever seen any for sale? If not, does anyone have pictures of more examples?

In a blue phase! :^D

blueglassbeads1_(359x400).jpg (139.5 KB)  
Luann Udell artist & writer Ancient stories retold in modern artifacts LuannUdell.com
Related link: www.ancientbead.com

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Thanks Jamey,
Re: Agree with Adjichristine -- Joyce Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Joyce Post Reply
11/02/2013, 07:40:21

for correction and clarification!

"Unfortunately, this is very garbled. These are not (in ant way) "folded" beads. They are mosaic-glass beads made from stratified preformed blocks, that are stretched and divided. In this style, usually cold-divided and lapidary-treated.

These typically derived from Hellenistic and Roman times. I could not say none were made in the Islamic Period. This is possible, of course. But it is unlikely. There might, however, be modern copies of these ancient beads (!)."



Modified by Joyce at Sat, Nov 02, 2013, 10:43:42

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I heard from Jamey, too!
Re: Thanks Jamey, -- Joyce Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Luann Udell Post Reply
11/02/2013, 15:38:35

Yes, the site I linked to is goofy, I just liked the beads! :^)

I truly appreciate learning the true story about all the beads I love. Some people responded to a post I wrote (on my blog) on some new jewelry pieces I'd made, asking about some galls beads, and I linked to sites that had pictures of various beads I was using, and where the beads could be purchased.

Unfortunately, there was also a lot of misinformation and misleading text connected to the images, so I took the links down when Jamey pointed that out.

My problem is, I personally don't mind copies or "fakes" if I like the bead, nor do I collect valuable beads just because they're valuable. I have to like them first, then be willing to pay the asking price, whether they're real or not, if they're worth it to me. Not very scholarly of me--I admit I can be intellectually lazy when it comes to things I love.

But I also don't want to deliberately participate in deception and chicanery. :^)

Luann Udell artist & writer Ancient stories retold in modern artifacts LuannUdell.com

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Russian Blue Copies from Taiwan?
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Posted by: beadstore.com Post Reply
10/28/2013, 19:10:05

Hello all -- I was recently going though some beads I acquired in an estate sale, and the prior owner of these particular beads had some very tantalizing notes about their origin. According to her notes, these "Russian Blue" beads were actually manufactured in Taiwan in the mid-1990s. The story goes that these fakes were initially highly successful in tricking a number of trade bead collectors. At some point, it appears, these Taiwanese manufacturers overplayed their hand, and the whole shell game collapsed in on itself as collectors realized that this sudden spurt of Russian Blues was, indeed, too good to be true. Just fascinating, and I thought you all might enjoy the story.

These little devils were difficult to photograph, as the blue color isn't quite coming through right. In fact, they are a little darker blue than most Russian Blues I've seen from the Africa trade. Anyone out there know more of the story?

Cheers! Abe @ www.beadstore.com

Taiwan1.jpg (94.0 KB)  Taiwan2.jpg (48.3 KB)  


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Decorated B&W Bead
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Posted by: Lee Post Reply
09/26/2013, 01:55:39

A decorated black & white agate bead with zigzag/wave patterns purportedly from Burma.

Without the decorated plain bands flanking at both end that are normally found in beads with the same decorated patterns.

Many tiny red spots found on the black body and white patterns.

The length is approximating 4.8 cm

The diameter is approximating 1.3 cm

The polishing appeared more fines compared to other decorated black & white or carnelian beads with the same patterns I had in my collection.

Any comments, information or images for comparison are most appreciated.

Thank you.

Lee

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Re: Nice beads, Lee! Do you feel they may all be contemporary?
Re: Nice beads, Lee! Do you feel they may all be contemporary? -- Frederick Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Lee Post Reply
09/28/2013, 03:14:14

Hi Fred

Thank you for your comment.

Not contemporary especially for the 1 black & white and 1 carnelian beads measured 2.6 cm.

It is the other 1 black & white bead measured 4.8 cm in length that I am curious to find out more information.

IMHO I think this bead is old based on the polishing, drilled perforations from both sides and many tiny red spots on the body/white patterns.

But I cannot be certain because of the "length", without the usual "plain bands" at the ends, decorated white patterns appear like "spotty" and "gray colors" in some areas.

Any comments or information are most appreciated.

Have a nice weekend.

Lee



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its hard to tell from photo
Re: Re: Nice beads, Lee! Do you feel they may all be contemporary? -- Lee Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: tofsla Post Reply
09/28/2013, 10:51:04

main issue is - there are many old beads out of Asia with no patina and so shiny that they easy can be mistaken for fake, while they not fake at all.

Also there are plenty of beads out of Taiwan that are fakes but they have very well made patina, so they look very used, while in reality they are new...

I find personally most reliable way to look at how deep is etching and if there is no deep etching - i tend to consider beads as subject.

its becoming harder and harder to tell what is old and what is fake... so unless bead has very define weather and wear marks - it almost impossible to say anything with 100% confidence.

IMHO i will stay away from all 3 from above photos. They may be real may be not - but considering they are expensive beads - its better to be safe then sorry...

Sarva Mangalam



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quick question for Jan
Re: Another comparison and thoughts... -- mosquitobay Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: tofsla Post Reply
09/29/2013, 18:20:57

Jan,

I wonder do you have any idea, why many Pyu beads come in such shiny unused form? For example beads of Indo-Tibetan origin never look like they have this nice and new luster, and always have good weathering or wearing marks?


Thank for reply
Tofsla



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GREAT READ! Answer from Jan
Re: quick question for Jan -- tofsla Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: tofsla Post Reply
09/30/2013, 04:30:39

Hi Tofsla,

I have seen this in other bead types as well. I also have collected ancient glass beads for many years, and every now and then you will find a nearly perfect glass bead that still has the original sheen. I have spoken to archaeologists who say the same thing, so it is not just fakes mixed in with other older beads.

I also collect pre-Columbian beads and objects from the Western hemisphere, and you can often find ancient beads right out of a burial that are in unused condition.

I think a possible reason is that beads are made or perhaps acquired at the time of a death and used for ceremonial purposes, such as for burial with a family member or high ranked personage.

Another reason maybe that they were kept and not worn except for special occasions. I see many decorated spindle whorls that appear unused, even though weaving was commonplace in the culture. I would think that like your tuxedo, that is only worn from time to time, the most decorated or valuable objects are only worn from time and there fore keep their condition intact.

On the other hand, many Indo-Tibetan beads have been considered as amulets, and are often worn daily by their owners. This would of course create wear even on very hard stone. Some of the found dZi type beads may have been worn or held by multiple generations of owners throughout centuries even.

What do you think my friend,

Jan



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Conflicting ideas...
Post Reply Edit Forum
Posted by: Beadyeyed Post Reply
08/20/2013, 01:34:43

I've shown these beads here before making no claims as to what they were. Jake had commented that they were Phoenician with Roman gold....something which the seller never even claimed about the gold. Then Tasart attacked and said they were fakes made in Indonesia. Well, it seems that today there are many bead experts...I make no claim to be one. And, while I did give pause before finally buying them...as I see them and hold them and having examined them with a loupe...my instincts tell me they are authentic. And, once again...I love them regardless. And, someone on here has told me that all of my beads are fake, rather childishly I'd say. If that is indeed the case...I've bought from Jan, the Picards, the Pumtekman, Africadirect and some others. And, I've been told privately by Rosanna that I should try to fit in....well, I have never tried to fit in any place. I've always known and believed that you should be true to who you are and people should accept you or not for who you are. This is me. I love my beads and the things I've made with them...some more than others. And, I don't take myself too seriously and you don't have to like me. And, while I love beads...they're not the most important thing in the world.

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Modified by Beadyeyed at Tue, Aug 20, 2013, 01:42:36

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Shiraz Face Beads
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Posted by: alipersia Post Reply
08/14/2013, 10:43:06

Hi there
i think most of you old bead collectors have heard about shiraz face beads.and i thnk it was discussed here before.one of our friends was belive it is not proved making face beads in shiraz in ancient time
and these beads in bazzar are replica.i was dissagree becuse i have seen many of them real old.but also there were fakes in the market.
some years ago i met a man who was digger.i asked him about these face beads and he told me many story about places he found those beads.i discribe him that digging is not good and he must try to protect and ducument what ever he find.after that time he start to taking photoes
from what he found.and later wrote a book in persian about graves and every thing he has seen.he gave many thing to officials to put in museum.unfortunatly many of beads he was found were not in market becuse of private collection and buyers.so we lost many information.
on the other side Archaeologists here also were not intrested to follow beads story and you guess....lately i saw that man and i asked him to give me some pics of face beads founded around shiraz.
here are the pics and i hope friends help to identify if they are made
in some were else.
sorry for poor cuality of fhotos becuse they are photo from photo.
i start with a face bead i had before.lips red mouth black.bigger than normal size.secound one around black .with thoot.founded 200 kilometer far by shiraz.
many thanks
Ali

09.jpg (58.5 KB)  2_05.jpg (86.5 KB)  


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Re: Shiraz Face Beads
Re: Shiraz Face Beads -- alipersia Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: mosquitobay Post Reply
08/16/2013, 08:30:38

I have a tendency to believe that these small tabular face beads are in fact ancient. I have heard the various arguments pro and con, and they may not be Roman made, or even Roman era per se, but they are most likely ancient. Whether or not they were produced in Shiraz and not just traded there, is another question.

Below is a group shot of three tabular face beads I believe that the matching pair on the bottom were produced in Alexandria during Ptolemaic Egypt, or during the Roman occupation of Egypt, post Alexander. Just above those is an example of the red background yellow-face beads that have been the subject of at least part of the controversy. They look pretty good to me. When I acquired this one (from Kamol) the story was that they were more "Islamic era" than Roman.

Given the pictorial evidence that Ali is presenting however, the examples very much appear to be authentic Roman era, at least the surrounding beads are. The rare tabular floral patterns shown in the book pictures he showed are most likely Ptolemaic Roman as well. See my second picture for a group of six different that I bought many years ago from Bassem Elias. Unfortunately I only have one left, but they were rare and amazing beads.

So I vote positive for the authenticity of the Shiraz finds, and would lean towards mid to late Roman empire period for production..

Jan Skipper,
Mosquitobay

bf285.jpg (61.0 KB)  bf284.jpg (146.3 KB)  


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: Re: Shiraz Face Beads.....some fakes
Re: Re: Shiraz Face Beads -- mosquitobay Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: alipersia Post Reply
08/16/2013, 12:08:05

Dear friends
Thomas,will,and jan
i am also happy to hear about you.
my intend for puting those face beads in a post was,to find if some of you have similar in color or shape.then it was easier to find
source .will is right they might came to persia from many diffrent place in west asia.also it was a question for me why they have diffrent color and face although all were found in fars province.
maybe becuse of diffrent peiod of making? i dont know.unfortunatly
they are just some sample we could document,i heard about rooster,hen and diffrent
type of face beads.for example one that i pointed earlier with gold foil glass around is really intresting.and for you who are masters
in glass beads,could be a nice topic for research.
i also apriciate sir jan for nice beads photos as always.
i hope some we could have better information about these nice beads.
here are a group of fake face beads that i reported before,and heard these days they found way to east asia.so will if you saw some in thai
market dont surprise.
these fakes first time i saw in shiraz bazzar and thought they are from syria or some where else.but they were made in shiraz
in that time i took some pics and i gave sample to dear friend will.
surely beads from earlier posts are real and ancient,there were other pics also in that book,but mostly coins and other ancient stuff.
again thx for your kind post and help.
Ali

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Modified by alipersia at Fri, Aug 16, 2013, 12:11:35

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Fakes on Display at the Louvre?
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Posted by: beadstore.com Post Reply
08/16/2013, 06:32:47

I recently returned from my European adventure, where I visited Paris for a few days. Of course, I had to make a quick trip to the Louvre. On the second floor, in Gallery 37 on the second floor (I think...), there are a few glass beads displays in the Roman artifacts area.

Many of the beads are beautiful. Several are attributed to specific collections dating to the early 20th century. However -- there were also several unattributed collections of beads that certainly looked fake to me!

Did anyone else visit the Louvre recently and have a similarly surreal experience? I hate to spread rumors, but they looked pretty obviously fake to me.....


Thanks! Abe @ Beadstore.com



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China West
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Posted by: redmountain Post Reply
08/01/2013, 04:55:14

Hello friends

The followings are photos from my recent trip to west china

Hope you enjoy

R.M.


1 Yellow river between shanxi & shaanxi prov.

mmexport1375357998908.jpg (33.2 KB)  


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maybe like this
Re: Question on bead culture -- tofsla Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: redmountain Post Reply
08/04/2013, 06:58:21

Nowdays in china more and more people no matter rich or poor are getting interested in buddism or tibetan buddism
also people who want to find some more powerful things to protect them

etched agate bead is a good choice.
and the price could $1-$10.000.000
and people who wear them all claim the beads are old or at least powerful



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do you see them on the street? everywhere?
Re: maybe like this -- redmountain Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: tofsla Post Reply
08/04/2013, 07:01:59

like in Tibet or Nepal you see people wear beads. old/new/fakes/real but everywhere. How about China?



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Phoenician head bead (replica?)
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Posted by: Heather Post Reply
07/24/2013, 12:59:40

I recently acquired a glass head bead. I suspect it is a replica of an old Phoenician bead, but it would be great to have a more informed opinion about this.

I am attaching photos, and look forward to any insightful comments.

2013-07-14_13.28.34_(2).jpg (82.9 KB)  2013-07-14_14.19.55_(2).jpg (30.8 KB)  


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Re: Phoenician head bead (replica?)
Re: Phoenician head bead (replica?) -- Heather Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: mosquitobay Post Reply
07/26/2013, 13:50:39

Hi Heather,

Yes, this is a replica of a Phoenician head pendant, Original dating to around 600 to 400 BC, more or less.

I purchased about a dozen of these from Russ Nobbs (less than $10 each), several years ago and sold them on Ebay as replicas because I had seen several sell as originals.

I also have a copy that is much older, dating possibly from the 1980's more or less. I suspect such items have been copied for a long period, as the originals are so valuable.

The best price I have heard an original bringing was $86,000 at Christies several years ago. It was however a spectacular example.

Below is a fairly good looking copy from China about 10 years old. In this case they copied an entire necklace that was from a Japanese museum.

Happy collecting,

Jan Skipper, Mosquitobay

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NOT BEAD RELATED... but more about museum fakes...
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Posted by: tofsla Post Reply
07/19/2013, 02:15:11

if its in museum doesnt mean its real? does it! and generally speaking, what is real?


Related link: http://www.guardian.co.uk/culture/2013/jul/17/jibaozhai-museum-closed-fakes-china

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Wow!
Re: NOT BEAD RELATED... but more about museum fakes... -- tofsla Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Joyce Post Reply
07/19/2013, 06:02:24

What can one say? We are in the midst of change? What will be "real" in future generations......I like the comment that it should stay open as a "museum of fakes"......how could the curators NOT know....and also the comment that at least 80 (of over 40,000) items are authentic! Do you think the claim that 100 museums a year are opening in China is accurate?



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Funny Topic(Donkey Beads)..!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Posted by: alipersia Post Reply
07/14/2013, 04:58:09

Hi There
some years ago our friend Jamey D Allen.put a story about donkey beads
from iran.he met a taxi driver and he showed him blue beads guess made
in Qum in center of iran and material is like fiance if i am corret.
in fact jamey was right people in some rustic area and villages in the past wore those blue beads on animals neck,like donkeies ...
but in the cities people didnt call them donkey beads and it was used
for babies,or carpets or even home as anti evil eye.but the correct donkey beads was some thing like a bead,made by node or tumor if i am correct in english.elders belive it has been part of a donkey body.i heard many story about when and how this tumor come out and dont want
to take your time.oldest book i saw some years ago was from mongol period and in that book i saw some explain about donkey bead.i didnt belive in superstisious and never collect one but recently i saw one in good condition for picture.normaly these beads have no hole but some time you might see with hole.in afghanistan and iran some times
soem people pay hundreds of us $ for one bead or 2.fakes are normaly bone .i put a pic of blue bead and a real donkey bead.
be well
Ali

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Cheers for the Red, White and Blue - Happy Independence Day!
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Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
07/01/2013, 12:10:52

My 4th of July necklace - I wear it around town for the Independence Day holiday week.

Any other favorite reds, whites and blues out there?

4thofJuly.jpg (51.5 KB)  


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Happy 4th of July!
Re: Cheers for the Red, White and Blue - Happy Independence Day! -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Dog Bone Crazy Post Reply
07/04/2013, 06:22:59

showoffakes-2.jpg (116.9 KB)  


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zhangyang2305@live.cn
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Posted by: liuyanchao Post Reply
06/20/2013, 11:37:38

my---bead----

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Posting 2 images for Jake...
Re: Hi Fred~ -- jake@nomaddesign Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Joyce Post Reply
06/23/2013, 07:21:33

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Chocolate Sago Namgo, and a beautiful two eye Mik dZi I gave to my father/Thanks Joyce!
Re: Posting 2 images for Jake... -- Joyce Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: jake@nomaddesign Post Reply
06/23/2013, 08:17:46

Fred~ I have not been handling many original dZi outside of my collection for some time and I am sure that I have quite a lot to learn. Lately I have been buying some of the good fake antique dZi to understand the differences between the true historical beads, and the ones with false age. Actually in your hand most of them are very discernible, though I cannot afford the very good fakes.



Modified by jake@nomaddesign at Sun, Jun 23, 2013, 11:09:31

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warring states copies of cylinder/tube beads
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Posted by: highlander Post Reply
05/01/2013, 14:35:29

Thanks for all your time & $ invested David and Joyce. :)

Here is a bead recently for sale on eBay, here is a recent pic of a tub full of them. I contacted their owner and sent similar pics and informed appears to have been etched with an acid to give mere appearance of being old. The novel on eBay about them, can bet the owner will try to resell to unsuspecting admirers in th future, so keep an educated eye out for them one day!

** As a side note, you should copy your typing before uploading any images - if the pic is too big and then you go back your work may all be lost, time wasted.

2_chinesefakes.jpg (92.7 KB)  $T2eC16RHJHQE9nzEzMOMBRTtyMONdw~~60_1.jpg (34.9 KB)  

Related link: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chinese-Cylindrical-Eye-Bead-Warring-State-Bead-Ancient-Glass-dragonfly-eyes-/400445608368?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5d3c6b11b0&nma=true&si=8xqTAyait%252B%252BDFw7YmYS%252Bu9rptDM%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557#ht_1426wt_884

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Sunday Gathering
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Posted by: globalbeads Post Reply
03/24/2013, 10:43:53

Playing with these beauties this morning - my oddball beads all hygraded from strands of etched carnelians. The non pumtek picture is a total of 3" (75mm).

Happy Sunday to you all!

P1170946.gif (162.7 KB)  pumtek-grp.gif (162.3 KB)  
Kathleen, Global Beads, Inc

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What YOU consider to be most beautiful bead on Earth?
Re: Sunday Gathering -- globalbeads Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: tofsla Post Reply
03/25/2013, 23:09:05

As they say Beauty in the Eyes etc, etc.. So will be good to know what different people see as most striking bead they every seen. I will start!


So, I am posting bead that I consider to be THE ULTIMATE MOST BEAUTIFUL BEAD ON EARTH. Its not mine but I had luck to hold it in my hand, and I know past and present owners.


Lady and Gents - let me present you THE FATHER OF ALL GZI BEAD - double sagonamko with Eyes!

tseten.jpg (29.1 KB)  


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Some thoughts about collecting
Re: What YOU consider to be most beautiful bead on Earth? -- tofsla Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Stefany Post Reply
03/26/2013, 04:24:20

Firstly I dont want to see my bead collecting as any kind of competition. i like variety rather than perfection!

i like BCN because people here share images of what they have and what they want to find out and what they know -there are many friends here whom i havent even met in real life.

Secondly- i am fascinated by beads because they represent a hunger for ornament and for keepsakes, and have been around ever since beings began to express their abilities and skills more than purely for survival..
i am interested in the development and refinement of every kind of technique of making, and "beads" happens to be a subject which includes examples of pretty well every hand- and later machine- craft as well as illustrating the things people admired over the aeons, enough to try to replicate what they valued. so for me all beads of any material including what some describe as "fakes" have a worth and can teach us something and connect us with our inventive ancestors. and from the practical point of view, being small, beads tend to survive-

the traditions associated with some beads are really interesting...from a social history point of view.

the examples of "pumtek" types shown include both older and newer ones, and i like that i can sometimes see how they were done.



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Happy Now Ruz
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Posted by: alipersia Post Reply
03/20/2013, 11:27:02

Hi friends
iranian national museum presented some of jewleries from its treasure
for 3 weeks in tehran.i wish i was there.it is first time they show these ancient beads and jewleries.
happy now ruz and have a wounderfull year with fresh beads.
Ali

tazeh.jpg (157.9 KB)  


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Re: the copies
Re: Re: Iranian beads -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: will Post Reply
03/20/2013, 15:22:45

These are the copies I mean. Are they made in Iran also? That's what I was told. I've always quite liked them.

1_WA133g.jpg (104.7 KB)  


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: Re: the copies
Re: Re: the copies -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: alipersia Post Reply
03/21/2013, 09:40:44

Hi Will
the photo which i put in post is fron iranian national museum.and the copy makers might got design from beads like these real etched carnelions.as i heard pyshawar in pakistan in center for make copy of etched carnelions.i heard once in tehran some one did, but was not succes and he stoped.i dont know any one else in iran make copy etched carnelion.yours are nice and these days here even fakes are rare.
about more photo of museum i did search but unfortunatly was not succes.i like also to see beads in better view.i hope some day catalogs
come out from this museum.
thank you and joyce for wishing.
Ali



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Documenting the Naomi Lindstrom Collection
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Posted by: Frederick Post Reply
03/21/2013, 02:10:10

If you were a beautiful, blue eyed, natural blonde looking for a job in the 1950's, what would you do? Would you choose work which would enable you to circle the globe several times each year? Would you spend your free time shopping for beads? One bright flight attendant working for Pan Am Airlines did just that. Naomi Lindstrom is her name.

Last night Jamey Allen present this world class collection. And after thirty something years, he continues to curate and design for her.

I asked Naomi if she was selling. She says "No, but I am interested in buying more"!

Naomi is shown on the left with her sister. And here are a few images from "the tip of the iceberg."

1._Naomi_&_Sister.jpg (97.4 KB)  2.Jamey.jpg (117.6 KB)  
Frederick

Modified by Frederick at Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 19:56:18

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Thanks much!!! but one more question...
Re: Re: Sorry, this is the best I could accomplish last night. -- Frederick Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: tofsla Post Reply
03/21/2013, 02:58:36

You mentioned "She says "No, but I am interested in buying more"!

Does she feel sticker shock? For me its becoming mentally not possible to buy beads in last 5 or so years, as i can't make myself pay 10-20 times more for something i buy not so long ago, for so much less...

Thanks for reply



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Affordable beauty
Re: Thanks much!!! but one more question... -- tofsla Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: will Post Reply
03/21/2013, 09:05:24

One of the things I love about beads is that there are millions of very beautiful examples that just about anyone can afford. Sure, at any given time there are small segments of the market where fashion rules. Zi is one of them right now, driven - in part, at least - by the Chinese plutocracy's mystification of everything it is in the process of wiping out in Tibet. But prices don't always keep on increasing. With zi perhaps they will, at least for as long as it is still thought to be possible to distinguish fakes from authentic beads, but the history of art markets is full of bubbles that have collapsed.

For the most part, bead prices seem to have remained on average quite stable. If you compare the prices that Robert Liu gives in his book Collectible Beads there's generally not a whole lot of difference between then and now. And perhaps, looking at the demographics of the market, prices may actually drop in the next ten or fifteen years.

All taste is a mix of socially informed convention and deeply personal drives. The two bead types that personally I find the most beautiful, Phoenicians and Kiffa, still offer examples that I can buy for the price of a good, or sometimes a mediocre, dinner. It amazes me that that is the case, because these beads, which are quite rare and fragile, give me pleasure for much longer.

Everybody on this forum has different tastes. I would never even have discovered Phoenicians or Kiffa without Thomas and Gabriel, and I'm grateful to them for getting me hooked. But if there's one collector here who inspires me it's Finfan, who lives - he tells us - on a quite limited budget and still manages every year to buy a lot of beautiful and interesting beads.

Cheers,

Will

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Good examples of etched carnelian fake?
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Posted by: tofsla Post Reply
03/19/2013, 18:53:02

In past few years, I notice significant amount of red etched carnelian fakes come out from Afhganistan. if you have some in your collection, can you please post. I want to look at more examples... Thank you in advance

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Good examples of ancient etched carnelian
Re: Good examples of etched carnelian fake? -- tofsla Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: will Post Reply
03/20/2013, 10:01:23

Hi tofsia,

Yes, those beads in your picture are really bad fakes, unlike anything that was ever made (until now) from that area. i haven't been in Peshawar for four years but at that time I think most of the fake glass beads in the market came from India (low end) or West Asia (high end). Perhaps some of the replica stone beads came from Peshawar itself, but I was told that most came from the Swat Valley. It may have all changed since then.

I'll post pictures of a couple of ancient etched carnelian beads that I bought there five or six years ago. I bought a couple of good strands at that time, but I don't have photos of any of the others here in Canada. The first fascinates me (a) for the technique, and (b) for the way the shadow of the pattern in the stone itself (with an eye included) survives behind the geometric etching. There was quite a bit of discussion about the technique when I showed it here before (sorry, I can't find the link), because of the way the black changes to white at one point.

Jan and Bob have a lot of very good examples they could show you, or you could do a search for them.

Cheers,

Will

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you missing point! sadly..
Re: Good examples of ancient etched carnelian -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: tofsla Post Reply
03/20/2013, 11:43:57



Modified by tofsla at Wed, Mar 20, 2013, 11:45:04

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I need fakes! - I asked for fakes, and I explained why i need them
Re: Good examples of ancient etched carnelian -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: tofsla Post Reply
03/20/2013, 11:43:57

and my fakes are from Peshawar itself. Thats been confirmed. Now can we go back with what I asked... PLEASE. If I wanted real one i would ask?



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nah, you can also post pictures of your granny and other relatives, why not?
Re: Oops! -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: tofsla Post Reply
03/20/2013, 16:25:12



Modified by tofsla at Wed, Mar 20, 2013, 16:27:08

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Cool your jets there, Tofsia...
Re: nah, you can also post pictures of your granny and other relatives, why not? -- tofsla Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Joyce Post Reply
03/20/2013, 21:09:44

This forum has plugged along for a solid 10 years now...and it thrives because of the giving nature of the participants. Every image, every post takes time, generously shared by those who participate. (Thank you all!) The network of bead collectors touches every continent, and everyone has something to share of interest to others. We frequently meander from the initial subject matter - there are no rules about that. If demands for images of fakes prompts a response of images of ancients, I am the last to complain! Other relevant responses could easily appear on a nearby thread from someone else - and answers often don't come right away.



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Istanbul, places to buy Bedouin jewelry
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Posted by: beadweyr Post Reply
03/17/2013, 09:06:39

Hi All
I have a customer that is travailing to Istanbul and they are interested in Bedouin jewelry. Any suggestion as to reliable stores or good markets to go to? I know most of the torist areas are filled with fakes so any help would be appreciated.
Thanks
Wayne



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Silver-plated Blown Glass?
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Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
03/12/2013, 11:58:06

Recently I removed a bead from what seems to be an old 1920s-30s necklace. I thought it was painted black, but instead it seems to be coated with silver that has blackened over the decades? The area that was under a bead cap is still metallic, as is the interior.

The bead seems to be blown glass, not plastic - one hole is much larger than the other.

Any clues as to why someone went to the effort to make a bead like this? A metallic, lightweight bead at a fraction of the cost of silver? What?

It measures 20mm.

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Modified by beadiste at Tue, Mar 12, 2013, 12:03:18

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Similar bead on a recent eBay necklace
Re: Silver-plated Blown Glass? -- beadiste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
03/12/2013, 11:59:50

I'd bet money that this came from the same workshop as the necklace I harvested my bead from, as it also shares the red lampwork bead with the blue/white/green/red swirl, as well as the same brass findings.

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Re: Similar bead on a recent eBay necklace
Re: Similar bead on a recent eBay necklace -- beadiste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: highlander Post Reply
03/12/2013, 15:57:13

Thank you for showing/sharing this old, blackened? candy ball looking thing, I dare not name it here...anywhere else is fine! The pics I have & attached didn't have a name of the bead, what's in a name, well alot of us prefer our names we give/borrow(ed) from others. Maybe your's has one, here's the best place to share/learn as you already know. I don't have a name yet for your new raised, bumpy, multi-eye? bead - it looked familiar, & I did find it in these pics found in my ever-growing Chinese bead archive. Can see, it, too, appears to have been found along w/the same style/type selection that enough Art Deco era style Chinese export bead jewelery seems to share. With the bookchain style jewelry there appears were many examples sent over from China pre-WW11, an explosion of export Chinese jewelry seems to have happened during 1920-1940; most jewelry I shop thats for sale like these, are dated then (Art Deco) by their owners, knowingly or not, right! While her admirers share how Miriam Haskell had many competitors producing items mirroring her would you call Oriental (revival?) line? Either some of the beads the earlier makers used were by then already were antique and/or 'vintage' - or - they simply were new & maybe with more being made every day until design/examples were retired. There aren't any Chinese bead cards that recorded dates of any of their manufacture...are there? If no, then finding out the era assembled becomes important for dating them. Haskell started business in the 1930's I am led to believe from her followers that share parts of her life story on the net, considering she may have started selling even earlier as a novice/beginner/admirer, maybe her mom had quite an eye for beads/jewlery, too, many members here can/will relate none the less. She could have assembled jewelry thats older then her new company's line (starting in the 1930's) is the point to consider.

Most may know in 1940's that Haskell clasps for the first time are signed & show her company's US patent #, that's where the all important date, if a date is important & to anyone, isn't that where it comes in as any help to an admirer/researcher concerned with assiging date/period of time with any one/set of beads. Her unsigned 1930's necklaces have been identified by her admirers usually by comparing to other 'known' examples that I imagine some were found with their original sale price tag to authenticate while the others being scrutinized/autneticated in other ways (material/style/clasp comparisons) - and with fakes/copies all along the way to ever avoid.
If Haskell was inspired by earlier beads/necklaces she had seen, then those unsigned Chinese bead necklaces that aren't Haskell (unsigned/signed) pieces very well would/may be even older then Art Deco. Again though, the explosion of Chinese jewelry into the U.S. doesn't seem to have quite happened pre 1920, so that the amount of older antique items still in circulation are seldom seem/harder to find in the normal places. What I consider is an antique may be in different terms/time periods then someonelse might.

I wish I could contribute more, other then a pic, member Mel was right about those who do very little to nothing here, she admittingly meant members like me, I tried to change Kirk's name back from Jirk only the edit was too old, I did try to change to better behavior Mel, what are you gonna do.

I enjoy Chinese beads, though, beadiste, you are the only member here to come to mind, thats had any/most interest in keeping some sort of constant supply of reads & beads comin' for the rest of us, like me, who lurk, and wait for more than just the same old threads about beads already discussed at length, rather the more common beads and threads of the rare beads that I am also unfamiliar with and contribute zero other then admiring/gawking. Your bead is either common or not, been discussed at length or not, though I only have this one pic in my archive, now I have two more...now thanks to you! Yes, thank you. Having a bead in a collection/inventory and having a mere photo in an archive - you can see that both persons can be envious of the other. Bought any beads lately?! Yes! Guilty.

Since Chinese beads are hardly ever being discussed here the past oh, many years now if one were to do a search of the forum's archives, I'm interested to find out more details/less dates & time periods - as you are, beadiste, though this is how I would go about dating your bead with only this knowledge above. It may well not even be from China, just like the mosaic turquoise bead (seen in eBay pic) I tried to resurect an old thread on these last week or so ago. These Art Deco bookchain bracelets/necklaces appear to be made from beads exported from China, though it isn't unbelievable that the Chinese imported those and other admirable beads, beads like you may show.

There, at least I tried to contribute something...anything, of any real value! Please do agree/disagree/lurk/post at your leisure. Nick

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Anyone seen this before?
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Posted by: tofsla Post Reply
02/27/2013, 05:42:33

is it real or fake? I never seen this type of beads - not in JJ Market BKK not in Scots market in Rangoon... never seen it as fakes, never seen it as real... Anyone has an ideas? e-bay 200899103504


Thanks much



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Balinese duck
Re: Re: Anyone seen this before? -- Shinji Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: will Post Reply
03/01/2013, 06:19:52

Hi Shinji,

There are some very nice beads in your second post; thanks for showing them. Could you please describe where and how they were found? It would be very useful.

However, I don't think any of the beads that you call 'type 2" look as though they were made by carving the pattern in the glass. (You say that the one I showed was made by that method, but I can assure you it definitely wasn't.) On the contrary, the nature of the free-flowing outlines of the bird and sun designs and the substantial variations between the patterns on different beads makes it much more probable that they are the result of a liquid application of glass (or enamel, as Jamey Allen suggests) rather than a carving technique.

When the white glass or enamel falls out, this is not evidence of the design having been carved and inlaid. It is simply a result of the trailed glass or painted enamel not having fused sufficiently into the body of the bead.

If you think about it for a moment it doesn't make any sense that a carving and a trailing technique would exist side by side in this same culture. The trailing or enamelling technique is much more efficient, and would have developed naturally in a culture with long glass-beadmaking experience. There is no evidence of lapidary inlay techniques in carved stone beads (such as existed in the Samon Valley in Burma, for instance) having developed in East Java prior to this time.

The picture is of a so-called Balinese duck, which I think is being represented in these bird designs.

Cheers,

Will



Modified by will at Fri, Mar 01, 2013, 06:21:02

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Re: Balinese duck
Re: Balinese duck -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Shinji Post Reply
03/02/2013, 20:42:42

Hi Will

It's fun for me to disscuss about this kind of topics.
Thank you for giving me the chance.

I think you are wrong in following piont.
"to the state of preservation of individual beads."

The defference of those type are not comming from the defference of preservation of individual beads.
It's clear and I'm sure.

I post same pictures again.
The beads in first picture and the beads in second picture are same kind of beads and both belong to type 1).
The defference of these beads are comming from the defference of the state of preservation of individual beads.
In this case you are right.

But type 1) and type 3) are different quality always.
Type 1) is roughlly designed in any case.
Type 3) is well designed in any case.
And you can find type 1) much more than type 3).
They are different beads for me.

It means type 1) is a kind of mass production
and type 3) is a kind of "taking a time" production in bird beads case.

I have seen and dealled with so many authentic bird beads and
every bird beads makes me to think so.
(Offcause I know about good fakes as well.Bassam knows.)

In almost case that kind of beads are supposed to be burial accessories.
I believe that type 3) were carefully made (by "carving" or "fusing"..I don't know) for people in higher status than people of type 1).


Blonz duck is famous in the area.
They are popular,so many fakes exist also.
As you know many Blonz are being found in the area and they are called
for "Dong Son" there. And Java people call blonz bird "Dong son" also.
But as you pointed "Dong Son" was several hundred years before the glass beads were made in Java.

So if blonz duck(and other blonz products) were made in same culture in same age as glass beads in Java, it means that so-called "Don son" blonz product in Java were made several hundred years after real "Don son" in vietnum.
Many dealler there point that many blonz product are being found with glass beads.
As far I have no idea about it.

How many times have you visited there?
2 times, 3 times were not enough for my case.
I'm not a good hunter, I just visited there many times( I don't remember how many times....maby around 20 times in this 10 years since I started this business...)
I think it takes a long time( or need big lucky ) to get enough samples in any case.

Oh!There is one more I have to add.
I have visited digging place but I didn't have a chance to see how they are digged up.
In the book "Manik Manik di Indonesia"
they refer to it.
There are some cases.
Sometimes they are being found in a terra cotta pot.
And some deallers there say same thing.

Best

Shinji


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Modified by Shinji at Sun, Mar 03, 2013, 03:10:19

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Hi Will~ It is always such a pleasure, and learning experience to read your posts.
Re: I don't think the authentic bird beads are made in the way Ornament describes -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: jake@nomaddesign Post Reply
03/03/2013, 16:14:51

I am interested in your statements about the Indonesian bird beads. I have had some exposure to these ancient artifacts, albeit in the early 90's. I do understand that there are many reproductions, and many methods of reproduction. The (authentic?) beads I handled were created precisely with the method described in the Ornament article.



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Hi Jake...
Re: Hi Will~ It is always such a pleasure, and learning experience to read your posts. -- jake@nomaddesign Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: will Post Reply
03/04/2013, 14:50:35

...good to see you here. Thanks for the kind words; these posts are one of my ways of figuring things out for myself.

I'm fairly certain that all (or almost all) the beads that really have been carved are fakes made in the early 1990s or later. At the same time, there's a large number of beads that look as though the pattern has been incised into them, when what has actually happened is that the enamel impressed into the glass has been loosened around the edges or has fallen out altogether. I doubt if any beads were carved in antiquity, but if some were (rather like the occasional Samon Valley bead where the patterned carnelian has been carved and filled rather than etched) I'm sure it was a technique that would have died out quickly because it was uneconomical and cumbersome.

How does one tell the difference between the genuine bead and the modern fake that uses an ancient bead as its base? I guess the only foolproof way would be through a chemical analysis of the material that the pattern is made from (glass or enamel or, in the case of the fakes, a hardened paste of some sort). Absent that, I exclude any bead where the pattern does not look as though it has been applied in liquid form, where the design appears rigid rather than fluid. I may miss a few genuine beads by doing that, but I save myself from going through a long process of yes, no, maybe.

Here's a pic of a guardian figure outside a village near Malang in East Java. It dates from the thirteenth century, a good seven hundred years after the bird beads were made. Notice the skull ear ornaments and the snake that winds around his body and sticks its head out from under his armpit.

All the best,

WILL

guardian:singosaritemple:C13.jpg (89.1 KB)  


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Some of my Tucson pictures
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Posted by: floorkasp Post Reply
02/19/2013, 09:39:16

Time to post some of my Tucson images.
Got home yesterday after some pretty exhausting travelling. My sprained ankle had quite an effect on my Tucson schedule. Peter was quite happy with the slower than usual pace ;-)

What was most special for me this year was meeting up with so many of the people I interviewed for my book 'Beads from Tucson' last year. The response to the book was great, and I had quickly run out of extra copies. I will be thinking about a better way to distribute and/or get it published. Also, I can honestly say that the most special beads I brought home with me this year, are beads that were a gift from fellow bead enthousiasts.

On the images are some of the beads I will surely cherish.

I went by glass artist Kevin o' Grady to give him his copy of his book. We talkes a bit, but he was very busy. A few days later, J-Me said I should go back to see Kevin at the Best Bead Show...... And when I did, Kevin showed me two different chevron beads he made and asked me to pick which one I liked best. And then he gave it to me as a Thank You gift for the book. And what a gift it was. Peter told Kevin it takes a special bead to make me speechless.....

On the coldest and wettest day I went by the Grant Inn and had a great time talking to Bassem, Thomas and another dealer, Bill Boss. It was at this show that Danny Lopacki was also showing his great work. Peter and I were very welcome in his lovely warm room on this cold day. Danny gave me a beautiful Chinese turquoise bead he made, as a thank you for the book. You can see this bead in the picture next to the original stone. Danny promised that he will publish his knowledge on Chinese turquoise when he finds the time, which will be great. I love both the look and feel of this bead. Could not stop touching it when I was wearing it. There are so many stone beads found in Tucson, but this quality of stone and craft is very rare.


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Modified by floorkasp at Tue, Feb 19, 2013, 09:43:26

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Re: Re: Re: Prosser chevron
Re: Re: Re: Prosser chevron -- floorkasp Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: floorkasp Post Reply
02/21/2013, 02:57:06

Actually, this first bead you showed here on BCN in 2008 is an example of what I would call 'type 1, with molded layers. And the second one is a bead that I would put in the 'Prosser chevron style, type 2' category: Plain white bead, with added colour decorations.
Both were photographed in the museum? I have not seen the 2nd one there.

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Prosser chevron
Re: Re: Re: Re: Prosser chevron -- floorkasp Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: jp Post Reply
02/21/2013, 18:12:48

Hello
yes we took those pictures in the museum among a few others. I agree Bapterosses experimented various styles of simulated chevrons, but they look a little different to me and I am not convinced this particular bead is for sure a Bapterosses product (although it is possible).
We have not seen this bead in the museum or any of the sample cards they have in their reserves, which has a vast amount of them. I would think there would be a good chance to see it.
That is why I would like to see if there is actually one of them today in the museum.
This technique and other including the simulated chevrons which are hollow could have been made by other people as well, and not necessarily with the Prosser method.
The fact that we don't know other firms who could have made them is no evidence that they are Bapterrosses, but of course we would welcome any news that can shade a clear light on any of these enigmatic"fakes"
Here are other pictures of two experiment from Briare.
JP

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Too good to be true?
Re: Ancient strand -- floorkasp Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: floorkasp Post Reply
02/22/2013, 02:58:56

I remember seeing the strand and being surprised by the condition and quality of the beads. Guess it was too good to be true.

Seems strange to me, though, how these things happen. The seller seemed to be a genuine bead enthousiast, with a great and varied collection. He was also proud of this strand. I asked if I could take these pictures, and he knew I would be putting them online.

So either he was unaware of the beads being reproductions, which does not make sense as he seemed to know and love his beads. Or he did know they were reproductions, but then why would he let me photograph them? Surely he would know someone with more knowledge of these beads than me would find out?

Anyway.....I hope nobody buys it a a price that it simply is not worth.



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Sellers who don't know what they're selling
Re: Too good to be true? -- floorkasp Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: will Post Reply
02/22/2013, 08:42:09

Hi Floor,

A long time ago, when I lived in Hong Kong, I had the good fortune to know the most respected antique dealer in the (then) colony, a man named Dunt King. He taught me a huge amount about Asian ceramics and gave me almost complete freedom to study his collection, pointing out the fine points and the flaws quite dispassionately. One day, in a moment of grateful sentimentality, I said to him: "You are the only trustworthy antique dealer in Hong Kong." He smiled, patted my hand, and said: "Thank you, but there is no such thing as a trustworthy antique dealer."

He didn't mean that all dealers are crooks, but he was reminding me that we all live in a constant state of tension between ignorance and knowledge. Even he would never know enough to be trustworthy. Even the experts make mistakes; they learn from them but in many cases they cover them up. And this is compounded ten-fold when people get into collecting primarily as an investment rather than for the love of what they are collecting. They make mistakes, as we all do; they then try to convince themselves that everything's okay; but when they finally admit that they have bought a fake they feel betrayed by the object rather than seeing it primarily as another useful step in a learning process. So, like the Vietnamese ceramics collector I talked about in a recent post, they try to cut their losses and offload the fake as being authentic, and somebody else ends up making the same mistake all over again.

I don't think there's anything new in all this, but the situation has grown to quite new proportions because of the internet and the media. When I check out the commercial online data services that record auction and sales prices, I find them in many cases impossibly contaminated by fakes. Yet these are the same services that auctioneers and dealers use to establish the authenticity of what they sell and to set their estimates.

I've no idea how any of this fits into these fake ancient beads, but I would guess that all the factors I've described might come into play in their being portrayed as something they're not.

Best,

Will



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Ancient strand
Re: Some of my Tucson pictures -- floorkasp Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: floorkasp Post Reply
02/19/2013, 09:50:17

This strand of high quality ancient beads was for sale at the Pueblo Gem Show. Will have to get back to you with the name of the dealer.

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Re: Ancient strand
Re: Ancient strand -- floorkasp Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Shinji Post Reply
02/22/2013, 22:16:00

Isn't there anyone who think the stand looks good?

Yes there is.
It looks good for me.
The informations form 2 pictures are not enough to assert that all beads are authentic.
But informations(colors,styles,designs,decolations,surfaces...) I can get from 2 pictures appeal they(at least allmost of them) are authentic.

I think the seller(or someone) sellected his favorite (rare and good condition) beads and made the strand.
So the strand includes many kinds of beads from Phoenician to venetian in good condition.
It includes one venetian round millefiori also.

Speaking to vessels beads,it's true that there are many fakes of them.
New made fakes are available.
And special one that is glued some ancient glass parts is also available ( sometimes being sold on e-bay).
I have both as samples.
But vessels beads in pictures look different from that kind of fakes for me.
I cann't judge thier handle is original or not from pictures.
I need to check them by magnifying glass in detail.
But thier bodies look authentic for me at least.
They are islamic beads.

I remember somebody posted the topic about vessel beads before.
I have been a fun of this forum for a long time.

The following link is somebody's post long time ago.
They are fakes.
But vessels beads in pictures look different from that kind of fakes for me.

SHINJI



Related link: fake vessels beads

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"Ancient" beads from Afghanistan/Jug-shaped beads from Christie's
Re: Ancient strand -- floorkasp Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Will Post Reply
02/24/2013, 15:03:28

Hi Shinji,

At least we're starting to agree that some of these beads are doubtful. But I don't understand how the two jug-shaped beads you are suspicious of differ from the three you think are okay. Can you explain, please? They all look to me as though they could come from the same (contemporary) workshop.

As you say, many fake "Ghabri" beads seem to come out of Afghanistan and I've seen large quantities in Peshawar. I always thought they were made in Lebanon, but India is also a possibility. Either way, Stefany is right.

I've been looking around today to try to find authenticated examples (I mean in museums, auction houses, publications) that resemble the jug-shaped beads on this strand. So far I haven't found any - which doesn't mean that none exist, only that they're quite unusual compared to the standard amulets. But in the process I did find some of the more common beads in a Lot that was sold at Christie's in London last April for - wait for it! - $20,225. That's $20,225 for 15 beads/amulets, some of them broken, and two very ordinary little glass jarlets. Crazy, eh? And yet I'm told the same beads can still be bought in Israel for under $100.

Best wishes,

Will

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Modified by Will at Sun, Feb 24, 2013, 15:15:35

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Re: "Ancient" beads from Afghanistan/Jug-shaped beads from Christie's
Re: "Ancient" beads from Afghanistan/Jug-shaped beads from Christie's -- Will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Shinji Post Reply
02/24/2013, 20:17:01

Hi Will

To tell the truth I don't know that authentic jug-shaped beads in islamic era exist or not.

The difference bitween "suspicious" and "okay" is comming from just impression from pictures.

"okay" is not okay in fact.
When I saw 3 (or 2) jug-shaped beads in 2nd picture(close-up one)
I thought that inlayed "Murrine" or decolated lines on thier body look original and could not judge thier handles and heads and foots are "new works" from the picture.

As far I can only say Thier body looks "OKAY" and cann't deny they(in 2nd picture) are authentic from the picure.
I'm not saying they(jug-shaped beads in 2nd picture) are authentic,
I just cann't deny.

And speaking to 2 jug-shaped beads on the other side, thier styls look unnatural for me from the picture.

All of jug-shaped beads may be fake (using authentic islamic beads) or some of them are authentic, it's difficul to judge for me from thoses pictures.

So If I have a chance to see them in front of me, I may say all of jug-shaped beads are fakes or I may say all of them are authentic.

In the first place if authentic jug-shaped beads in islamic era doesn't exist we don't need to discuss,haha.

And speaking to the other round shaped beads I'm more positive than jug-shaped beads.

Anyway It's difficult for me to express what I'm thinking in Engsish
exactly.
I'm afraid that It may cause confusion here...
Please correct my English if you find something wrong.



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Turquoise in Tucson
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Posted by: highlander Post Reply
01/31/2013, 15:05:49

There may be lots of antique/vintage turquoise for sale at the many shows in Tucson this year...here is my only turquoise nugget necklace, known as a 'Chief's' necklace - wonderful vintage stones from the Damele mine in Nevada with hand made silver 'bench' beads. Maybe other members can show their best to help inspire and for visually inspecting to avoid buying any modern/treated/fake! examples...cheers, Nick

RL847_1L.jpg (84.0 KB)  


Modified by highlander at Thu, Jan 31, 2013, 18:51:22

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Pinterest
Re: Turquoise in Tucson -- highlander Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Floorkasp Post Reply
02/01/2013, 18:10:08

I recently started looking around on Pinterest. Russ, who also posts here is a keen 'pinner' of turquoise beads and jewelry. With 653 images of turquoise and native American jewelry, this is a bord that may interest you.

I have only bought 'turquoise' colored beads I know to be imitation pieces. Personally, I can tell the obvious fakes apart, but not the better fakes, treated or colored stones. It makes me weary of buying 'real turquoise'. Last year I did trade a necklace I made for three strands of beautiful turquoise beads in Tucson, straight from a miner.


Related link: Russ' Pinterest

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pyu gold
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Posted by: tofsla Post Reply
01/29/2013, 06:34:51

they look like some prehistoric robot parts. I love them, on this photo about 60 different types, but i think i enocounter about 80+ so far.. look very out of space... Enjoy

pyu-gold-small.jpg (162.3 KB)  


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Re: tircul gold + name the bug!
Re: pyu gold -- tofsla Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: will Post Reply
01/30/2013, 10:56:22

Good. This is turning into an interesting discussion.

1. If you think all ancient gold is the same colour (even ancient gold from the same place and time period) you should really check out some good museum collections. In fact, there is a huge variety of shades, ranging from bright yellow to almost-orange, and patinas; the variations are produced of course by different burial conditions. A yellow colour has nothing necessarily to do with cleaning in acid, nor is a deeper colour a guarantee of authenticity.

2. Dirt. Well, everyone who collects antiques know that this is the first thing that fake-makers use to try to create an impression of age. I have a friend in Si Satchanalai in Thailand who makes fake Sawankhalok ceramics, and he routinely smears a mixture of earth and guck into the surfaces of his very pretty plates. Seems like a pity to me.

3. As I said before, it would be good to have some close-ups of your collection. It's not really possible to assess it from one picture. I like the look of it and would love to see it in more detail.

4. New methods have been developed for testing the age of gold - mainly for high-end coin collections. They're expensive and not always completely reliable, but if one is buying items in bulk from a single source it could easily be worthwhile.

5. Provenance. Most of the time this is the best assurance we can get. If you trust the dealer you bought the beads from, good for you. But do be careful; there are many horror stories (see 9). The elephant/chank-shell/ox bead was collected more than thirty-five years ago from the Halin area, well before the present fashion, and I have documentary evidence to prove it. That's what I call provenance. Similarly, because Jan (mosquitobay) is such an experienced collector and dealer with one of the best collections of ancient beads in the world, he must have built up a network of trusted and trustworthy suppliers. That's good provenance for the bead he showed.

6. Age. It's very interesting what you say about some of the beads being Tircul and some later from the Bagan period. Which ones? It would be really useful to have more information about this.

7. Have you tested the gold content of the beads? It occurs to me that if they are like the gold coins from Sriksetra and other Southeast asian sites the gold content is likely to vary according to date, earlier being higher. Again, it would be really interesting to know more about this.

8. Hendrik's image. Sorry, Hendrik, but it looks very good to me too!

9. Horror stories. Buying in bulk from a single dealer is very tempting; it's an instant collection. But it can be quite risky. For quite a long time, I've been a consultant on Southeast Asian artefacts to a number of different museums and institutional collections, and I sometimes get asked to assess private collections too. Here are a couple of the saddest stories I've come across:

- a few years back, I was asked to look at a collection of Vietnamese ceramics assembled by a Vietnamese-American collector. They supposedly came from a shipwreck in Indonesian waters. Several hundred pieces; pictures of individual items prior to cleaning; over $100, 000; an instant heritage. But more than 90% were fake. About half had been bought in Singapore. Then the buyer decided to by-pass the Singapore dealer and went to the source in Indonesia. He thought he was being clever, saved 50%, and ended up throwing even more money down the drain. At first, when I pointed out to him the signs that ought to have been obvious, he wanted to kill me; then he wanted to kill the dealer! Now and again some of the fakes appear on eBay, so somebody is going to get cheated all over again.

- just last year, I was asked to examine a European collection of early Vietnamese bronzes from the Dong Son period (1st millennium BCE). At first the collector had acquired pieces gradually, and most of these were authentic, but then he had connected with a dealer in Bangkok who had sources in Vietnam. He checked out the story and I guess it seemed credible, so he bought close to a hundred objects for a large amount of money, and they really were beautiful. But as I looked at them the doubts grew in my mind for stylistic reasons and so we had several of them tested by a laboratory in Brussels. The composition of the bronze was all wrong; they were all recent fakes. I happen to know the dealer in Bangkok (River City and the Oriental, not Chatuchak), and I don't believe he is a crook. He made a mistake, a big mistake, and the collector paid for it.

Over the years, there have been contributors to this forum who have done the same kind of thing. To my mind, it's better to vary one's sources so that one can keep on comparing. Everyone who collects buys fakes at one time or another; one has to find the best way to learn in the process.

Sorry to go on so long. For anyone who gets to the end, the pics are of another Tircul gold bead, also from near Halin and collected more than 35 years ago. It seems to be in the shape of some kind of bug; on top it looks like a cicada but not on the underside.

Cheers,

Will

Tircul161a.jpg (147.0 KB)  Tircul161b.jpg (159.1 KB)  


Modified by will at Wed, Jan 30, 2013, 10:59:19

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Chung dZi real or not?
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Posted by: tofsla Post Reply
01/21/2013, 07:53:53

Hi,

I am new to this forum and I hope someone can help me to ID these beads. Seller claims they are real and come from Afghanistan. I am not sure, but i never seen Chinese fakes of Chung dZi, so i think, if they fake they must be very new production from India?


Thank you for help

28842_129634653856119_1281456330_n.jpg (85.0 KB)  


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It has same feel to it as Nepalese(stripped) Chung dZii!
Re: Chung dZi real or not? -- tofsla Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: tofsla Post Reply
01/21/2013, 09:01:04

I have my own conspiracy theory (dont KILL ME pls!) that all famous Nepalese Stripped Chung dZi are fakes from India and there is NO UNKNOWN SITE in Nepal where they all come from... And these beads feel kind of indentical in shape/patina and craftsmanship (or lack of it). This why i think they not Chinese.. Thnks



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I broached the topic with Matt, and he concurs they look good...
Re: Chung dZi real or not? -- tofsla Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: jake@nomaddesign Post Reply
01/23/2013, 23:07:27

Reckon I could be hoodwinked by the fresh polish. I have handled some of these types of beautiful chung dZi in Tashiling Tibetan refugee camp Pokhara Nepal.

1st. Photo of one of Matt's many fine beads.
2nd. from dZi blogspot

Thanks Matt!

BC1270.jpg (0 bytes)  DSCF8982.jpg (10210 bytes)  


Modified by jake@nomaddesign at Wed, Jan 23, 2013, 23:10:50

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thank you for reply. I am not convinced. they real
Re: I broached the topic with Matt, and he concurs they look good... -- jake@nomaddesign Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: tofsla Post Reply
01/24/2013, 06:38:03

i think we all get used to Chinese fakes, but there are also Indian fakes, Pakistani fakes and Nepali fakes. I am struggle to figure out why i never seen so many chungdZi 20yrs ago, as I see it now? Does it mean most of them new made? or there are new digs?



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Recent Buy
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Posted by: redmountain Post Reply
01/10/2013, 05:09:14

The long black agate beads with 2 white circles around it is more than 10cm long,never buy this kind of beads before.During the recent 2 -3 years more and more bead dealers from south asia or west asia came to china to sell old and new beads. This one I am sure is from them. for me it is old ,but no idea of its origin.

The crystal Jue what we call it in chinese is from south china like Guangdong province. there are excavation reports of this kinds things from Guangdong and this kind of ear ornament was dated to B.C 200 or more earlier.I personally think there maybe this kinds of things in vietnam or other south asia countries. you can always see jade ones but not in crystal so I pick it up.


Long time no post
say hello to all old friends and new ones

R.M.
Peking

image



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Re: Stone from the South: more jade and other stone beads and slit rings from the South
Re: Stone from the South -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: cicada Post Reply
01/13/2013, 18:12:44

Hello Red Mountain, I'm very glad to see you back.

First photo: jade ring with ancient holes to repair (string together) old
break; 11.5 cm long tubular beads, jade square earring, very thin (Pyu?)
8 cm x 1cm x .4cm rectangular jade bead, slit ring

Second photo: All of the slit rings, including the large glass pair are
beveled on one side and rounded or flat on the other side.

Terry

DSC07248.JPG (140.4 KB)  DSC07334.JPG (166.4 KB)  


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Dating Vietnamese beads and rings
Re: Re: Stone from the South: more jade and other stone beads and slit rings from the South -- cicada Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: will Post Reply
01/14/2013, 12:12:04

Hi Terry,

I'd be interested in knowing what the dealer(s) said about them. Really, any information you have would be useful.

Essentially, all these pieces could possibly be from Vietnam.

The stone slit rings are Dong Son, I think - similar to the one I posted earlier. The glass slit rings are from the Sa Huynh culture further south in Vietnam - about 2,000 years old. The squarish little slit ring is from the Dong Dau culture that bridged the gap between Phung Nguyen and Dong Son (1500BCE-700 or thereabouts). It's very pretty and quite rare. I'll attach a page from a Vietnamese archaeology journal where you can just about see a similar one at #4. With the spiked protuberances, it's a design that evolved through different cultures, culminating in Sa Huynh ear ornaments like the one attached.

I don't remember having seen a long flat rectangular bead like the one you picture; it doesn't look Tircul (Pyu) to me but I could easily be wrong.

The tubular beads could be from Phung Nguyen, but they look a little less well rounded than I would expect from there and I think they're probably later. Very similar beads were manufactured over a period of nearly 1,500 years not only in Vietnam and possibly Thailand, but also in western China (as Red Mountain showed us) and in the Philippines and Taiwan. In the first millennium BCE, as nephrite deposits in Vietnam started to run out a remarkable long-distance maritime trade began to develop between Vietnam, Taiwan and the Philippines that saw the exchange not only of raw Taiwanese jade but also of finished and partially finished artefacts.

There are also recent fakes of these tubular beads so one has to be careful; it's a good sign if they still retain their patina.

I hope this helps to fill in some of the gaps.

Best,

Will

DongDau17.jpg (23.2 KB)  SaHuynh89s.jpg (53.7 KB)  


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Bead sorting Islamic I belive
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Posted by: beadweyr Post Reply
11/20/2012, 10:21:02

Home today and decided to string up some Islamic beads that I have had in a box for a few years. hope you like them.

This first group is a variety of more common eye beads.

old1s2.jpg (155.6 KB)  


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Thanks for showing, Wayne...
Re: Bead sorting Islamic I belive -- beadweyr Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Uwe Post Reply
11/22/2012, 04:13:23

My favorites would be the one, second row from outside, at 10 o´clock (because of the unusual brown/brick red...) and the five beads in center with these unusual eyes...:-)
During my early time buying beads in Morocco I found one or the other single bead from the islamic era between all the venetians...nowadays I have to take care of new Chinese or Indonesian Millefiori...



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Re: Thanks for showing, Wayne...
Re: Thanks for showing, Wayne... -- Uwe Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadweyr Post Reply
11/22/2012, 06:08:06

Thanks Uwe, I also really like the 5 with the unusual eyes.

The main reason I don't really collect ancients is because there are so many fakes in the market.
I don't have enough experience with or knowledge of them to feel comfortable buying these days.



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Request forBead Identification Help
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Posted by: KBKglass Post Reply
11/12/2012, 12:44:50

This past weekend at the Bead Society of Greater Washington Bazaar, a gentleman brought these beads in for identification. Everyone was stumped since they weren't easily recognizable considering their shape. The man acquired these beads when he was posted with the State Department in Sudan, many years ago. They are glass. Unfortunately, that was about the extent of his knowledge. Has anyone ever seen these before or have an idea what they might be? A few of the local experts were suggesting Phoenician. Thanks in advance for any information.

Tube_Beads_2012-11-10_12.56.40.jpg (119.8 KB)  


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Re:Not Phoenician
Re: Request forBead Identification Help -- KBKglass Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Will Post Reply
11/12/2012, 14:41:43

Definitely not Phoenician, I'm sad to say.

For real Phoenicians please check out Gabriel's wonderful website (link below).

Though I haven't seen the particular model you show, their surface looks very similar to a lot of the fantasy Phoenicians that are made in China - quite nice beads in their own right except for the artificial weathering.

Cheers,

Will


Related link: http://ancientbeadsworld.com/abm.eyebeads1.htm
Modified by Will at Mon, Nov 12, 2012, 14:42:40

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Re: Re:Not Phoenician
Re: Re:Not Phoenician -- Will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: KBKglass Post Reply
11/13/2012, 07:01:41

Thanks, Will. Wonderful link. I do need to brush upon fakes. Fortunately, I haven't run across many since I only try to deal with reputable vendors that I know and trust. I guess this man had a different agenda. Best, Karen



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Chevron knock-offs
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Posted by: dannoh40 Post Reply
11/07/2012, 10:20:57

I have some questions about fake chevrons. These are photos of some that I have had for at least 3o+ yrs.
In more recent years these reproductions have gotten much nicer,clearer glass and better pattern clairity. Is there a time line of the progression of these chevrons.
Being that these beads do not enjoy the same resale value as venetian chevrons....are there some that enjoy more value then others?
I'm not sure where these chevrons were made. I havn't ruled out India as a soruce.The glass is very pourous and look a little like sand cast beads.
I think that of all the reproductions, this type are the most misrepresented as venetians.
I'm trying to get as much info as I can because I want to put them in my ebay store and I trying to collect as much info on these as I can. Mainly for those who don't mind collecting fakes....
I know that very old sand cast beads can be more collectable then newer ones. These were perhaps rounded up in africa....I'm guessing that because of what there strung on...
SO.....What can you guys tell me so I can help these ugly chevrons find a good loving home.

chev_1b.jpg (126.8 KB)  chev_1d.jpg (106.2 KB)  


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Fred.... Jatim close up~
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Posted by: jake@nomaddesign Post Reply
10/18/2012, 15:09:19

Fred, I have no doubt about the authenticity of these beads, please feel free to be frank, and critical. I will appreciate the input of a fellow travelers exceptional knowledge, and I have been wrong before, ;)... photos taken with my phone, I did not edit so as to show the most accurate color.

Any other comments are greatly appreciated.

22-25MM Thanks bead pals...

Jatim_I.JPG (120.5 KB)  

Related link: Fredric "..."
Modified by jake@nomaddesign at Thu, Oct 18, 2012, 21:44:12

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genuine jatims
Re: Fred.... Jatim close up~ -- jake@nomaddesign Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: will Post Reply
10/19/2012, 06:33:12

Hi Jake,

I think it's virtually impossible to be certain if a Jatim is genuine from a photograph nowadays. The fakes, at their best, have gotten so good, with acid treatment and other artificial aging processes. As Hendrik said in the previous thread, the genuine ones do often seem to feel different, but other than provenance, the only real way to be sure is through a scientific analysis of the glass - but that is dificult to arrange, complicated to carry out, and prohibitively expensive!

Having said that, I don't see any reason to doubt your assumption that this bead is authentic. I'd love to see a close-up of the cylinder-shaped bead in your earlier picture. It's a rare one.

I haven't taken any more pictures of the fifty or so beads that I acquired recently in Indonesia and elsewhere, but for the moment I'll attach a grouping of beads I've shown here once before. I'm as sure as I can be that they're all genuinely ancient. The large central pelangi is one of the best I've ever seen, but it has, like a lot of the beads that came out of Indonesia in the late 80s and the 90s, been polished to restore its surface.

Cheers,

Will

JatimsNecklace-s.jpg (38.7 KB)  


Modified by will at Fri, Oct 19, 2012, 06:35:04

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RE: Photos
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Posted by: pacer Post Reply
09/23/2012, 09:58:33

I'm new to the forum and had to adjust the photo size. Hope this will work.

CIMG1282_(165x124).jpg (42.2 KB)  CIMG1284_(165x127).jpg (36.2 KB)  


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Re: Ancient agate bead
Re: Ancient agate bead -- Joyce Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: pacer Post Reply
09/23/2012, 11:39:16

Thanks for the info Joyce! Any idea on the value in today's market?



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subjective
Re: Re: Ancient agate bead -- pacer Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Joyce Post Reply
09/23/2012, 16:09:15

Not for me to judge, but if you check eBay, it's entertaining and can give one an idea of what the market currently bears. Be aware there are a LOT of fakes on this venue, but some very GOOD genuine material as well. Here's the current list of completed offerings, highest first, for "ancient agate bead".


Related link: eBay "ancient agate bead"

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Basket Bob is right. Friendship was Great!
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Posted by: Dog Bone Crazy Post Reply
09/19/2012, 11:49:39

Hello All;

OK ... I will try to give you a brief one about the Friendship Flea Market and Show.

First in the photo you see Basket Bob and Art Seymour at Art's stall. This photo was taken on the first Saturday morning. If you look close you will see a chevron Basket Bob is wearing. Art asked Bob if it was truly a "black seven layer" chevron. The answer was True! I gave the bead a good once over and have been jealous since.

The Friendship event is far more than beads. It is a wondrous time of friendship, brotherhood and shared good stories by all who have been going to and selling at this event for years. I spent five wonderful fun filled days of sights and learning. Plus the joy of being a part of great antics and humorous pranks. You have to experience it to believe it all. The Friendship event is a Flea Market, Turkey Shoot, Historical Event ("Primitive"), Target Practice and a Shopper's Delight. Yes, there are beads to be found and no better beads from the African Trade than at Bully's Tent. Many of the sellers have beads of all delights and histories. Fakes to Wonders. Plus any kind of delights from Bones to Gigantic Panties! There is all kind of as we say here in the US "Fair Food" to some unadvertised goodies from some of the folks in the "primitive" area. All you have to do is open your eyes and take it all in. You will not be disappointed. OK, as you all have heard me say many times in the past. I am dyslexic and at age 64 my dyslexia is getting the better of me. I just hope I have this down and all in line. ROFL!

More Later.

Sincerely
Thomas Mercer
Dog Bone Crazy.

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Modified by Admin at Wed, Sep 19, 2012, 12:17:13

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Not a bead....but
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Posted by: TASART Post Reply
09/08/2012, 15:17:42

any thoughts?
Has cool inset cane slices, sorry for picture quality

glass.jpg (159.8 KB)  


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Judy and Jake are right to be suspicious...
Re: Not a bead....but -- TASART Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Joyce Post Reply
09/09/2012, 08:54:00

The slices are so randomly placed on the crude little vase...

The vase or jar could be much much newer than the rosetta cane slices...if you're counting the yellow core as a layer, the slices are 7''s......hmmm...remembering one of our informants telling me some time ago that popular practice for aging fakes is to secure them into a net in peaceful tidepools (Syrian coastline) for a couple of years...



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some nice millies
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Posted by: Judy Post Reply
09/06/2012, 17:33:35

I have not seen these for sale before, they just came from Nigeria. They measure in length 36.8mm and in diameter 11mm and 13mm. The coin measures 16mm in diameter.
The second group has me wondering, I thought they were Venetian until I saw them enlarged in the picture. Is there anyone who is familiar with these or can identify them? Please.
Judy

1_millies_bcn.jpg (93.3 KB)  millies_385_gallery.jpg (160.4 KB)  


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More pics, including possibly the exact bead
Re: Found the beads in the Sick Collection cards -- beadiste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
09/07/2012, 16:07:51

Bead 17627 on Card 169 is a checkerboard design.

Bead 17657 matches the longitudinal murrine arrangement on Judy's beads, with a stripe of black/red/yellow

Card 163 contains bead 16943, which is an oval version of the murrine+yellow glass

The last appearance of this murrine is bead 18000 on Card 173, a small cylinder with yellow glass around the waist and murrine on the ends, similar to 16886.

The murrine doesn't appear on any of the post WWII cards (186-188).

Am flogging myself with a hank of beads for being too easily persuaded that anything different or tidy must be Chinese.

Sick17626.jpg (110.1 KB)  Sick17657.jpg (90.7 KB)  


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that is REALLY IMPRESSIVE
Re: More pics, including possibly the exact bead -- beadiste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Judy Post Reply
09/07/2012, 18:42:40

You put so much time and energy into searching for the information. I was reaching for my flogging beads but decided it's a bit too kinky for me. After all the Chinese beads were created to be deceptive and I definitely got sucked into the paranoia of FAKES!! YIKES!!!



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"Gabri" beads enquiry
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Posted by: Stefany Post Reply
08/22/2012, 02:57:03

i've been asked to identify a number of glass beads some described as "Gabri" beads.

they all look false to me and some definitely recently made in Indonesia.
My understanding is that its a term used for old glass beads mostly found in Afghanistan, but i would love to have some more solid information-

does anyone here have authentic early examples bought as "Gabri" beads, and what characteristics do they display that arent found elsewhere, to compare with the rather strong opaque yellows, greens, reds, blues, whites and blacks used in the ones i have been asked about?



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Re: "Gabri" beads 2009 BCN discussion
Re: "Gabri" beads enquiry -- Stefany Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: paula Post Reply
08/22/2012, 11:46:17


Related link: Gabri beads discussion on BCN
Modified by paula at Wed, Aug 22, 2012, 11:48:22

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Re: Re: "Gabri" beads 2009 BCN discussion
Re: Re: "Gabri" beads 2009 BCN discussion -- paula Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Stefany Post Reply
08/22/2012, 14:30:56

thank you Paula-
even now there is scarcely any more relevant information online, and one site seems to show very similar fakes as the real thing...



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History of Djenne Dig Beads post
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Posted by: PuppyLoveJewelry Post Reply
08/02/2012, 20:04:31

I am also having trouble using the search tool on this forum (just saw a post from someone else having trouble, asking for instructions). I am hunting for a post I saw a couple of weeks ago about Djenne dig beads, do they all truly come from Djenne, Mali and are the newer multicolored strands showing up authentic or not....

No matter what I search I cannot find this post- Help! :)

Also, do people think these newer strands with the multiple colors are fakes (ones like ebay item #190709518884). It seems that most of the ones people are sure to be authentic come in pretty blues and greens and the newer multi colored strands showed up recently. (?) opinions?

I am in LOVE with this kind of bead: Nila, Roman Glass, Islamic Glass, Dig, Djenne...I think I am forgetting a few other names I have stumbled across for these gems. Know of any more? It helps me to google for them. I recently got and now constantly wear a gorgeous strand of blues from a very nice ebay seller (who sent me to this forum to learn) and I am on the hunt for more strands with vivid color, especially the blues but also the greens.

Thank you all for your help!
peace,
marjorie



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Striped beads
Re: So are these "Djenne" Dig Beads Real or Fake? -- PuppyLoveJewelry Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Floorkasp Post Reply
08/05/2012, 13:48:21

The striped beads have nothing to do with chevron beads, as there is not a trace of star molding in sight. I could be wrong, but they look an awful lot like beads that are currently coming out of Indonesia. They come in plain colours and striped, and they were for sale at Tucson for 2 dollars a strand. I bought, among other colours, these blue striped ones. They are interesting to use in jewelry because of their irregularity, but they are not old at all. The stripes are probably made in the same way stripes are made on for example seed beads; by adding several strips to the outside of the piece of glass before pulling it into a long tube that can be made into seed beads.

Don't know enough about the other beads to ID them. They look like some of the nila beads I have. However, presuming I am right about the striped beads, I would be hesitant to buy from this seller unless I was very sure of what I was buying myself..



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Re: Striped beads
Re: Striped beads -- Floorkasp Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: PuppyLoveJewelry Post Reply
08/05/2012, 14:32:11

Thank you for stopping in to give me a more experienced opinion. I tend to feel cautious and suspicious too. The Nila beads just look so close to ones I have here at home too in terms of there shape (rounded side, flat side, some leaning or slumping, wide variation in size). If they are fakes, this is bad news because they are pretty darn good as far as I can tell in their form at least.

The seller is questionable. I asked her how I could feel confident about the beads authenticity and the answer was very weak in my opinion- about how she only buys from ebay powersellers with thousands of positive feedback points and also travels herself to buy.

I just want some nice rich blue translucent Djennes so bad! :(

BTW, I am horrified at who is qualified to be a top rated powerseller on ebay! I have this status and always thought it was a fairly good sign of an honest hard working merchant however I have recently realized that if a dishonest seller sells in massive bulk- numerous ebay transactions, thousands and thousands, that even if dozens of people are unhappy and leave bad feedback because of percentages and how they work the seller can still stay in good standing. That is awful I think. I also saw a woman who left abusive comments after her customers feedback...she did it 5 or 6 times and still remained a top rated powerseller! Making fun of your customers? That is not a top rated seller in my book.

There is so much fraud and dishonesty on ebay that I am honestly embarrassed sometimes to sell there. They are very good at helping with protection from scary buyers, and very good and getting stuff out there and seen, so I am trapped for now.

I used to sell on Etsy until a woman begged me for a deep discount on a pendant supposedly as a gift for a sick person, took it apart to figure out my design and then began making her own pendants with my design and selling them on Etsy. I was so hurt and sick over it. Etsy did not protect me at all and there was clear documented evidence for them to work with. Too bad, because Etsy looks like such a classy venue compared to ebay. I love their look.

But the pigs gotta eat! haha! Organic vegetables for a herd of 11 guinea pigs every day gets expensive ;) Not to mention Cecil the husky and his ability to snarf down a bag of treats in a day.

Have a nice Sunday and thank you again for weighing in.
peace,
marjorie



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Ancient?
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Posted by: birdi Post Reply
07/25/2012, 21:37:04

I see these and similar beads online in various places. The skeptic in me stirs when I read claims about age. I think they are very interesting and attractive. However, are these type quartz disc beads truly ancient?

QuartzDiscsBCN2.jpg (28.9 KB)  QuartzDiscs1BCN.jpg (41.4 KB)  


Modified by birdi at Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 00:07:54

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Unwearable?
Re: Ancient? -- birdi Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
07/27/2012, 10:04:48

What's always struck me as odd about these beads is the un-wearability of a whole strand of them. Rough, sharp edges, heavy...

I can see wearing one or two suspended from a leather cord or something as a pendant -
"OK, everyone from Clan A put on your stone ring and stand on this side of the dance ground" -
"I have survived the puberty ceremonies" -
"It's a lucky charm that wards off _____________"
"Cool, huh?"

Or something for ceremonial burial use, in which case the wearer wouldn't care one bit about the weight or roughness of the beads.



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Re: Unwearable?
Re: Unwearable? -- beadiste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: judy Post Reply
07/27/2012, 15:57:53

I don't think the larger beads were worn on a necklace. They would have been worn as a pendant as the Dogon wear the large granite beads. The shallow biconical shape is worn today as a pendant in Mauretania and Mali. When I consider the huge and heavy neck rings and anklets that have been worn in Africa I can only say WOW! to the strength of African men and women. These beads would have been trivia in comparison. I have attached pictures of two NEW ancient beads. The mottled one measures 71mm in diameter and the reddish quartz bead measures 52mm in diameter. They are both disk shaped. I have had cylindrical and kinda round beads in the past but I don't keep the fakes. They turn me off. If anyone wants these for examples I will send them for the cost of the post but I don't want them to be sold, PLEASE!!

fake_1_bcn.jpg (77.5 KB)  fake_2_bcn.jpg (87.8 KB)  


Modified by judy at Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 15:58:57

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Interesting Tircul fake
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Posted by: jake@nomaddesign Post Reply
07/04/2012, 12:11:30

Hi all~

I purchased this bead off ebay for a lowly amount. With Tiger Tiger Matt's discussion and prompting I discovered the supposed fused portion is actually inlaid plastic! To bad, it is a beautiful carnelian.

Pyu_II.jpg (76.7 KB)  


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Re: Tircul (Pyu) fakes
Re: Interesting Tircul fake -- jake@nomaddesign Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: will Post Reply
07/05/2012, 11:14:04

Hi Jake,

Plastic! That's amazing. I've never heard of that "technique" before. I actually was watching this bead, too, not because the "etching" was so convincing, but because I thought it might be an authentic bead with an inlaid design (though I haven't seen that technique on carnelian so far, only on agate). Anyway, I didn't bid on it finally because the ends looked wrong, but if I had known the lines were actually filled with plastic I probably would have done - just to add to my own little gallery of fakes.

I don't quite understand why, but in the last two or three years there has been an enormous upsurge in fake Tircul (Pyu) beads, and sometimes amulets, on eBay and other sites. The reason I put Pyu in the title here was in the faint hope that some of the buyers of these fakes might come to the forum to educate themselves with regard to what they were purchasing. Here is the # for one such item: 170871989538. This seller from Thailand does a pretty good business selling these pseudo-etched beads as well as figural glass and stone copies of ancient Tircul beads. He/she also sells a few pieces that look as though they might be genuine, but why should anybody in their right mind bother taking the risk? And now there are signs that other sellers from Thailand are catching on to the recognition that there's the possibility of a thriving market here, so I expect we'll see even more of these things turning up in the future.

And then there are the people (mainly from the US but also from France) who throw the "Pyu" tag into their headings for vintage or recent Pumteks, presumably in the hope that it will add to their credibility. It seems to be working too.

One bright note is that Jan (mosquitobay) has recently been selling some nice authentic Tircul beads on eBay at very reasonable prices. Thank heavens for honest dealers!

All the best,

Will



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Re: Re: Tircul (Pyu) fakes
Re: Re: Tircul (Pyu) fakes -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: tigertiger Post Reply
07/11/2012, 22:27:54

*Somewhere* I have a whole bunch of 'convincing' fakes (black, round beads) with the inlaid plastic which i picked up in Bangkok a few years ago, i, too covet interesting fakes and frauds! (run on sentence!)



Modified by tigertiger at Wed, Jul 11, 2012, 22:28:38

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Re: Interesting Tircul fake
Re: Interesting Tircul fake -- jake@nomaddesign Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Anne0135 Post Reply
07/07/2012, 02:13:00

You know, it's still a beautiful bead. Do you think the dealers know they are fakes? Do you think the typical buyer cares? Just curios. After a;;. isnt that why all fakes prosper? If people can't afford the real thing, they buy fakes and today it takes a real expert to tell the difference.



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Info Please
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Posted by: Belgiumbead Post Reply
05/18/2012, 12:49:57

I have some very fine beads from Java, acquired many years ago in Indonesia. Some have faces, figures, lizards... Beautiful and incredible. Who has got serious knowledge of these things?

L1130874.jpg (79.4 KB)  L1130873.jpg (56.5 KB)  


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Shoot the messenger
Re: Info Please -- Belgiumbead Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Fred Post Reply
05/18/2012, 14:54:24

These beautiful beads have all been made during the last ten years.

I have been to Java and Bali many times by myself, as well as with Jamey Allen and with Jim Lankton—just so that we could study these wonderful beads. And I think it is strange that they are not easy to sell for the prices they deserve. In fact, they are not even selling on eBay for little more than the asking price in Bali.

And Jamey feels that many may fall apart soon because they have not been properly annealed. But those which survive should be properly regarded someday. Enjoy them now; they are nearly as good as mosaic glass gets, I feel.



Modified by Fred at Sat, May 19, 2012, 07:18:17

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Re: Shoot the messenger
Re: Shoot the messenger -- Fred Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Stefany Post Reply
05/19/2012, 08:48:03

i agree that by stigmatising so many beads as "Fakes" we shun them although if they were named something like "museum quality replicas" they might be recognised better for the undoubted hand/skills that have been developed and refined in order to produce them.



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Cheers!!!
Re: Info Please -- Belgiumbead Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Belgiumbead Post Reply
05/19/2012, 11:33:27

Thanks for the response... at least we're agreed that they come from Java and not Italy ;-)

Who's making them and why can't I see more ot them around with 2mm long lizards and well designed faces??? Perhaps they are fakes but... they were acquired around 30 years back (it seems) and some have archeological patina (it seems)...

Hmmm



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Happy Mother's Day! What beads have you been wearing lately?
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Posted by: Joyce Post Reply
05/13/2012, 22:28:53

Though it's almost over, it's still not too late to wish all Moms a Happy Day. I hope you all could spend some time doing what you love most. My day went......drink coffee...string some beads, then walk around in the cute old downtown and browse the junk/antique shops with my son. We had a nice afternoon...and since he's 14, I am very happy that he still wants to spend time with his mom on Mother's Day. (He's at an age of strong gender identification with his dad.)

I've been restringing some old favorites. There are a couple of new (to me) necklaces in the group as well. The inner strand are ancient amazonite from Mauritania, with a few old amber and silver beads. The rest are old Venetians from the African trade. I wear beads every day, so some reach a time of restringing now and then in new combinations and strong new cord.

DSC05103.jpg (103.0 KB)  


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Unlikely combination
Re: Happy Mother's Day! What beads have you been wearing lately? -- Joyce Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Joyce Post Reply
05/13/2012, 22:34:37

I've had all of these for awhile - 2 years for the vintage early 20th century Mississippi river mussel shell shoe buttons, probably 8 years for the old black coral with silver color "nailheads" and possibly Yemeni silver beads which both came via Yemen with Abdul Touray. This necklace is full of texture and pattern and really feels neat. I think I'll like wearing it. Thank you to David for the great images.

DSC05104.jpg (101.7 KB)  


Modified by Joyce at Sun, May 13, 2012, 22:36:29

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love the buttons and "via Yemen"?
Re: Unlikely combination -- Joyce Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: brianbrian Post Reply
05/15/2012, 03:12:29

I often think that buttons are a kind of undeservedly poor cousin to beads. Perhaps not, maybe there is a Button Collectors Network too!

I'm sure black coral was originally widely used in Yemen as prayer beads, misbaha. Modern misbaha beads tend to be smaller than the black coral beads in your necklace though black coral prayer beads from the beginning of the 20thC are bigger (like yours) according to the photos from "Coral in the Traditional Ornaments of the Yemen".

The silver beads are interesting and I also have some which came from Yemen or possibly "via Yemen". I think that they may actually be modern beads made in Yemen. The interest in and prices paid for old, high quality silver work from Yemen could have stimulated a cottage industry in reproductions/ fakes depending on how they are represented. If the skill still exists to produce them. I think it probably does. One doubt that I have regarding these beads is the silver content. I've never tested the silver but it seems to be different from the range of alloys used in old work.

Your beads are much less patinated than mine but I think they are the same.

I have seen other Yemeni items here on BCN that I think may also be modern, high quality, high price Yemeni reproductions.
Brian

DSCN0039.jpg (131.6 KB)  1_DSCN0042.jpg (111.0 KB)  


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Seal Bead? Check out the great pixs!!!
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Posted by: Carole Post Reply
04/24/2012, 18:44:51

We are getting ready for the Global Village Museum "Beads and Baskets" show in Fort Collins, Colorado, USA. Mike (the snowflake photographer) has been taking pictures of beads, as I had mentioned before in this forum. Here is a seal bead that he photographed that I always wanted to know about, but lacked the expertise to present. The bead looked like it got chewed up in a garbage disposal. One bead sharing night, someone decided to test it on on clay and WOW! If real it could be the oldest bead I own, though help me date it please. If not....oh well :-)
See next post for impression. I will update my posting skills-I promise.

image



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Re: Seal Bead? Check out the great pixs!!!
Re: Seal Bead? Check out the great pixs!!! -- Carole Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: jake@nomaddesign Post Reply
04/28/2012, 20:17:21

Hi there fellow bead enthusiasts~

Sorry to have been so out of touch, I have had a difficult and entirely challenging year.

I read with great interest Carole's forward of Jamey's appraisal, and continued reading other posts throughout the years. Who could not agree, very often the seal beads made with rotary wheel cutters are obvious fakes. Though I did read In "The Scientific Research On The Sculptural Arts of Asia" many references, and specific articles about rotary incising wheels. Amazingly enough one very scientific article "The Introduction of Rotary Incising Wheels for Working Jade in China" concludes that "incising wheels where first used for working jade in China during the Shang dynasty (ca 1200 B.C.E.)"!!!!! The article discusses specific objects shaped in this manner throughout all the subsequent dynasties

In a post script the article discusses how the treadle driven lathes, and incising tools were not prevalent until the use of actual frame chairs, in the Tang dynasty (ca 850 C.E.)


Related link: Seal Thread

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hand made african glass beads
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Posted by: alex Post Reply
03/30/2012, 10:26:06

Any ideas?
They came from Africa ( unknown region ) during the 1950s.
Total about 80.
Hand ground, all hand drilled from each side.
The large ones are made from very crude glass with bubbles and inclusions.
The hexagonal beads are of good quality glass.
The smaller beads appear to be made out of a good quality glass spheres about the size of a marble.
Any information would be appreciated, even a guess!
Thank you Alex

Photo0134_001.jpg (35.8 KB)  


Modified by alex at Fri, Mar 30, 2012, 13:45:44

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McBead's image of an old strand
Re: Re: maybe you should say which ones you think are similar ? -- Will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Joyce Post Reply
03/31/2012, 13:06:10

Here are the old ones McBead shows. For me, it is truly very hard to tell new repros from ancient/antique beads of this type from images alone.

Every now and then, I delete trades page offerings older than 30 days, except for "media" ones. This one is due, but will leave it for now, since we are discussing these types here.

jatstr0045bead.jpg (75.8 KB)  


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They don't look very similar to me:
Re: McBead's image of an old strand -- Joyce Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Will Post Reply
03/31/2012, 15:34:14

The glass for a start; the colours; the perforations; almost certainly the structure, the method of manufacture. Though the photo isn't very clear, Max's (McBead's) beads have a completely different feel to me.

These drilled beads of Alex's, which are being churned out in Indonesia as we speak, have been drilled from opposite ends to create an impression of age because someone has told the guys who make them that that is how ancient stone beads were made - which in many cases was correct. But of course, as we all know, it's not the way a whole lot of ancient glass beads were made. So, right from the start, they're not very good or convincing fakes, especially in comparison to the brilliant copies of mosaic beads that the better craftsmen in East Java are producing - now they really are difficult to distinguish from the real thing.

All the best,

Will



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Agreed
Re: They don't look very similar to me: -- Will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: floorkasp Post Reply
04/01/2012, 02:23:28

I do not think the Indonesian 'recycled glass beads' are intended as fakes or replicas. I think they just stand on their own, and through the technique, some resemble the ancient beads. As you say, the Indonesians are very good at making replicas, and these are just something different.

Having seen quite a few of McBeads beads up close at their shop, they are clearly very different to me than the ones Alex is showing.

I think somewhere the story of them being from Africa, 50 years ago, got mixed up with these beads.



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What is this bead? Any ideas? Please. :) And questions re: Silver
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Posted by: Anne0135 Post Reply
03/24/2012, 09:57:26

This is a brown gemstone set in silver that I cant identify. I have exaggerated the contrast some the one of the photos just so you can see detail.

Also there appears to be paint or something on it- how do I get that off? And, what is the best way that you use to identify silver? I've tried all the tests (acid, magnet, scrape off small area to see if you can detect any copper- I dont have any confidence in any of them. Do you?)

Since these are artisan pieces they arent stamped but this looks to me like real silver, not silver plate.

Any advice is as always appreciated! Thanks so much
Annie

brown_beed_in_silver_pendant.jpg (13.2 KB)  brown_beed_in_silver_pendant_2.jpg (21.5 KB)  


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The acid test
Re: Thnx Stephany, thats sounds about right. Birdie, re: silver -- Anne0135 Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: floorkasp Post Reply
03/25/2012, 07:30:28

I have used the testing method, with an acid changing colour if it is indeed silver. However, if you are dealing with a silver plated item, it is a lot more difficult. You can check with the acid on parts that have seen the most wear, but it is not conclusive. You can make a small nick in the piece, and test it there. I have never attempted to distinguish between 925 and lower grades of silver. I have seen professionals do it, but it takes a lot of practice to distinguish the shade. To me it just gives me a pretty good indication: is it silver, or something else?

Generally I also like to have a close look at the quality of the work. The higher the quality and the finish, the more likely it is actual silver.



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Re: The acid test
Re: The acid test -- floorkasp Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Anne0135 Post Reply
03/29/2012, 12:03:37

Joyce, thanks for the link to the video, It was excellent. This is the acid that I use http://www.ebay.com/itm/TEST-YOUR-PRECIOUS-METALS-6-BOTTLE-TESTING-KIT-EXTRA-TEST-STONE-FREE-LOOP-/130672882465?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item1e6cb5f321 (If the link doesnt work put in Item #.)

And what the tester showed is exactly what happens- only I rub the silver onto a granite stone they provide, so I dont ruin the silver.

So I guess it is somewhat conclusive. The other thing I do is take a nail and dig down to see it there is ANY copper at all. Believe me, only on a very not visible location and I make a very small "scrape." I was just amazed that things I thought were junk actually showed the deep red- so thought this cant be right. But yeah, it just might be.

Also, good advice in selling antiques- not to get too specific about the silver content its more the age and the history. If someone is looking to melt an antique down for silver well...what can I say>

Also, amazing to learn how the Chinese make fakes and how many of them there are out there! Americans must look like complete idiots but caveat emptor? no? That is proof after all they've discovered capitalism.

Thank you all, great lessons. As usual!



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Can anyone tell what mine this turquoise is from? I say King Manassa
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Posted by: Anne0135 Post Reply
03/15/2012, 15:12:15

Can anyone help me identify the origin of these turquoise gemstones? Also, these quills are supposed to be sea urchin. Anyone have any take on that?> it seems more to me like balsa wood or teke. I have no experience with sea urchines

turquoise_sea_urchine_necklace_close_up.JPG (3906 bytes)  turquoise_sea_urchine_necklace.JPG (4488 bytes)  


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Can't see the photos, but here are sea urchin beads
Re: Can anyone tell what mine this turquoise is from? I say King Manassa -- Anne0135 Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: birdi Post Reply
03/15/2012, 21:27:49

A quick search of Google Images yields this representative photo of sea urchin spines, at least one type that is commonly sold as beads.

I missed my chance to put the photo here, so please click the link.


Related link: sea urchin spine beads - photo
Modified by birdi at Thu, Mar 15, 2012, 21:29:07

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Sea Urchins- but more important the turquoise
Re: Can't see the photos, but here are sea urchin beads -- birdi Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Anne0135 Post Reply
03/17/2012, 06:38:04

Birdie, Thanks for the search! I saw those too and these to me dont look like sea urchin quills. They feel like dyed balsa or teke- I wondered if all those patterns on sea urchins are natural because these have no such patterns. Its amazing the mystery these beads and jewelry be and the journeys that it takes you on. Its like a scientific and cultural study in one. You have to REALLY be good to recognize fakes. there must be a billion dollar industry in people passing off fakes (Duh.) I do not plan on people one of them! That is why I have come here to learn! Thank u so much for your help. All of you.



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etched carnelians
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Posted by: bulaste Post Reply
02/17/2012, 12:34:49

Hullo, I have been browsing through this forum at times, thought I'd post a few beads.

My main interest in beads has been old himalayan beads after many trips & many years hiking skiing & generally wander through himalayan regions. Particularly dzi beads & old agates, the local myth & mystery behind the beads has always fascinated me.

Has some etched carnelian/agate beads that I find interesting, the material used includes some colorful banded agate verging on jasper in places.

etchc1.jpg (115.2 KB)  


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Re: etching - some different examples - Indus Valley
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: etching - some different examples - Indus Valley -- bulaste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Will Post Reply
03/02/2012, 13:49:44

Hi again Bulaste,

Sorry again for being slow to reply. I didn't realise the thread was still alive. Thanks for the additional photos; they're much better. These are some very attractive beads, but I'm not sure about their authenticity. I think anyone who says they can be sure on the basis of single images is also to be doubted. But some of these last six - the bottom one in the first post and the top ones in posts 2 and 3 - do seem rather similar to beads I've seen from sellers I don't trust.

Having said that, I wouldn't want to trust my own judgement either! I've handled a lot of Indus Valley and islamic period etched beads and a great many from Southeast Asia, but I have very little experience with beads from Tibet and Nepal. Why don't you post them again in a new thread at the top of page one? It would be good, for instance, to get a response from Bob Brundage who has a fabulous collection - there are some of his beads in the Tibet chapter in Robert Liu's Collectible Beads and also in Jamey Allen's article on Dzi in Arts of Asia.

Cheers,

Will

PS: I really like the look of that faceted polka-dot bead; I've never seen one before.



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Re: Re: etching - some different examples - Indus Valley
Re: Re: etching - some different examples - Indus Valley -- Will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: bulaste Post Reply
03/03/2012, 08:39:00

Hi Will, thanks for the reply again,
My initial post was meant more as an introduction to myself than a comment on these beads. I didn't mean to imply that these beads are from nepal or tibet. They are reportedly from the border of afghanistan & pakistan. I know they came to N.A. from pakistan originally but have no reason to trust the pakistani source particularly.
I feel they are authentic based soley on observation of the beads themselves.
I would be quite suspicious as well looking at some of the images I posted but having the beads in hand with a good loupe & microscope is a different story. I have handled a good number of etched himalayan beads sourced before the reproductions appeared & am familliar with the characteristics of the authentic old beads.
Having said that I'm less aquainted with the reproductions, I've seen some obvious fakes & a few that are good enought that I could not say with certainty one way or the other.These beads if forged are good enough for me to say 95% certainty they are authentic. Many of the beads singularly I would not say so but as a group I would.
I am more than open to opinions & maybe someday will revive the post on page one but for now am about to embark on a trip skiing from manali to kaza & will not be around computers for some time.

cheers,



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Can anyone help me identify this piece? Exotic Turquoise & Silver Artisan Signed Necklace
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Posted by: Anne0135 Post Reply
02/29/2012, 05:00:15

I have been told this is the place to go for all things knowledgeable. Can anyone help me identify the gemstones or anything else on this piece? I would really appreciate any help in telling me what I have here. It comes from my great aunts estate who was an artisan and interior designer. She died many years ago but the jewelry is now being passed down to me,
Thanks so much for ANY help.



Modified by Anne0135 at Wed, Feb 29, 2012, 05:01:16

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another link
Re: Thank you for the tips and the link! -- karavanserai Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: TASART Post Reply
03/01/2012, 08:08:35

It is extremely difficult to tell if a piece of Turquoise has been treated, there are several ways the stones are treated, also there are so many other types of stone passed off as Turquoise that it confuses even more. Knowing the source of material is a key especially for the high dollar stuff, I stopped in at Tony Cotner's room at the Tucson show (Damale Turquoise mine)and I looked at some fossil replacement Turquoise and Variscite valued in the tens of thousands of dollars.....I know that Danny Lopaki has cut many beads for Ernie Montoya a Southwestern mine owner and operator (Carico Lake Turquoise Mine)and I'm sure Danny can tell us about material we could only dream of holding, again stones in the thousands.....then the opposite end of the spectrum, the current crop of dyed Howlite (or Magnesite) is marketed as turquenite and sells for a few dollars a pound......good luck

image


Related link: Lime Green Turquoise

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Thank you Thomas! Does Danny have some spare time ...
Re: another link -- TASART Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: karavanserai Post Reply
03/01/2012, 11:24:15

Thank you Thomas, this is a really cool detailed map. I've seen similar ones in 'Turquoise, the gem of the centuries' by Oscar T. Branson and in the New Mexico Magazine 'The allure of Turquoise', but yours is more detailed with more sample stones and better photographed.

The link looks familiar, but I had not saved it, so thank your for that!

I have been browsing through the BCN archives and read almost every thread about turquoise and indeed came across Danny's messages quite frequently as well as from others.(there is one picture of Danny on top of a turquoise pile somewhere in China -I think-, which I won't easily forget! Nor the pictures of Russ I think with a storage full of different turquoise coloured resin, a real wake-up call)
I have learned a lot, and became less naive about the turquoise and all its fakes, copies etc one can buy on the net but I still could not find a set of guidelines that helps to distinguish waxed from dyed from stabilized turquoise . And maybe that is hard to describe , but there must be some clues?

So Danny,and other turquoise specialists,if you have some spare time we could start a new thread on this subject???
Thank you!

martine

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Beads ID
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Posted by: nishedha Post Reply
02/16/2012, 02:03:17

This group of beads was reportedly found in Gao (Mali).
They are large (maximum 24 mm)and although looking like horribly eroded faïence,their original melon shapes are still evident.
I would like to know whether anybody has seen similar beads (perhaps at Tucson?).
Any extra info?

3_faience.jpg (113.1 KB)  


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Not seen them before
Re: Beads ID -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: floorkasp Post Reply
02/17/2012, 10:33:53

However, my gut tells me there is something not right with them. Genuinely old faience beads, erode differently, is my experience. The big air bubbles do not seem to fit faience. This many, looking this much alike, but different from (many) other faience melon beads makes me suspicous.



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Good observation, Floor...
Re: Not seen them before -- floorkasp Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Will Post Reply
02/18/2012, 11:07:01

... it would be quite easy to fall for one of these beads on its own. But taken together, they're all too similar, and too obviously the product of some artificial "aging" process. What process, I wonder? And does anyone know where they are being produced?

As with many fakes, it's the greed of the seller - wanting to offload so many of them at the same time - that gives the game away.

Will



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Recent Arrivals
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Posted by: nishedha Post Reply
02/16/2012, 02:15:13

Do please welcome this school of beads with some juicy comments!

29islamic.jpg (108.0 KB)  


Modified by nishedha at Thu, Feb 16, 2012, 02:16:40

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BEWARE! I have been privately advised that most are FAKES!
Re: Recent Arrivals -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: nishedha Post Reply
02/17/2012, 05:18:39



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NOT ALL fakes
Re: BEWARE! I have been privately advised that most are FAKES! -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: TASART Post Reply
02/17/2012, 06:00:24

I still believe that some of these are legit old beads, my circled version of your beads show beads circled in green, these appear to be old and authentic, the ones picture here are Java and new, of course!

image


Related link: a past thread about similar
Modified by TASART at Fri, Feb 17, 2012, 06:04:43

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Re: NOT ALL fakes
Re: NOT ALL fakes -- TASART Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: xian Post Reply
02/17/2012, 08:15:01

I allow myself to bring this reflection to you which has been the fruit of my trips and searchs for beads in West Africa, for more than 25 years, where I am lucky to meet many salesmen of which several became great friends.

I believe that it should well be understood how the majority of the beads discovered in West Africa reach us.
At the base of the travelling merchants traverse the bush or the desert with an aim of exchanging with the villagers very diverse products such as rice, sugar, fabrics or clothing, agricultural implements or material of kitchen. In exchange they bring back artisanal objects (baskets, seats, fabrics) plants, meat of bush but also of the old objects or copies the old ones and of course beads. These travelling merchants do not have practically any idea of the value of the beads which they bring back and which they sell to more specialized merchants such Ali Cissé. They sell these beads by batch, i.e. all that they found in their round. There is in these batches of all, old beads, modern beads, broken beads and any type of materials (glass, wood, metal, plastic…). The purchaser gives a price for the unit. For these beads there is a very reduced number of purchasers. It is an activity which in general is transmitted of father as son.
This practice is very old and the forgeries in the field of the beads are rather recent.
These salesmen of beads recognized are confronted today to determine the truth of the forgery without having really the means. Few, to see not reference material, for certain difficulties of reading and the majority even not a magnifying glass like material of checking and especially very weak knowledge of the techniques of manufacturing. The beads are only one product as another which they buy and which they sell without never making collection of it (with some rare exceptions such Oumar Cissé).
The only experts on the ground are collectors residents on the spot in Africa but they are seldom salesmen…
There are of course great differences among all these salesmen, some control well better than of other their subject, some show a greater honesty than of others, some seek more than others to be formed.
It is in the sense that it is necessary largely to thank this forum for the exchanges that it allows us and the knowledge which he diffuses.



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sad news for the bead world
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Posted by: eric mort Post Reply
02/12/2012, 14:24:05

I am sorry to announce that Owen D. Mort Jr. passed away today. As many of you know my Uncle Dave was very involved in the bead museum as well as various bead societies. He was a wondeful man, generous to a fault, and will be sorely missed. I will post the details for his memorial as soon as I know them.

Sincerely,

Eric Mort



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Owen D. Mort, Jr.
Re: sad news for the bead world -- eric mort Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Joyce Post Reply
02/12/2012, 16:02:06

Dear Eric,

I am very sorry to hear of the passing of your Uncle Dave. It was such a pleasure to meet him in person at Best Bead in 2007! I remember that he was with a good friend of yours, Brian, and they were having a great time at the bead show. Dave was especially amused with the collection of fakes ( I did The Best Bead show for Bassem that year) that I displayed together - Warring States, Phoenician heads, Islamics.

He was a wealth of life experiences, both in beads and everything else. I visited The Bead Museum last February, just a few weeks before it closed, and had the opportunity to photograph his handmade books - which are now a part of the Mengei Museum. These books, to me, are just incredible.

Our bead community has lost one of it's kindest elders. My heart goes out to you, Eric, and your family and friends. Thank you for letting us know.

1_bmdmortbook1.jpg (119.3 KB)  

Related link: Dave Mort hand crafted books
Modified by Joyce at Sun, Feb 12, 2012, 18:36:44

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Your oppinion please..
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Posted by: dannoh40 Post Reply
01/30/2012, 10:36:15

While we're talking a lot about fakes...Here's some photos of some beads I have.
These look like decorated "etched" agates. I can't find any air bubbles using a microscope,so I've ruled out glass.(that doesn't mean I'm right)
Anyhow...this one shows some marks around the perf's that say to me....newer.
are these considered chung dZi's or more like phum-tek???
this bead is about 1 1/2" long and 1/2" dia..

2_ID_1a.jpg (100.7 KB)  3_ID_1b.jpg (74.8 KB)  


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WHAT IF.....
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Posted by: dannoh40 Post Reply
01/23/2012, 10:37:59

You know...sometime researching beads can be so damn hard...sure, everyone knows Dubin and Liu's awsome books about beads.
But,There's not enough information within to really help study beads.
I'm sure lot's of us have had a reply to a thred that recomended a book or university style essey.
These prompts are invaluable in finding an answer with any meat on it's bones.....
So dannoh has a proposal.....Why don't we try and incorporate a spot on the articals page which contains a glossary of books and other publications which contain great additional information on construction, chemical and other such information...
A section with downloadable articals like the one I found by the wizzard of bead info....Carl D. about "redhearts"
I think that some of you guy's have stuff you'd love to contribut to this section..
The more acsess dummies like me have to books and articals the less likley it is that I'll ask some of those more elementry questions.
Many of you who have studied beads forever have a better idea which pubs are more usfull then others and could save guy's like me a lot of time and effort of just looking around..
Some folks can't get out and hunt down some of this stuff and to have more articals written by members would relly help.
I know some of you guy's could come up with some tip's with photos included...you know, some of you who have sold and collected beads forever....
anyhow......I know I would love to have some of the papers some of our members have in their arsonal....good idea????or am I dreaming



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Good idea
Re: WHAT IF..... -- dannoh40 Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: floorkasp Post Reply
01/26/2012, 17:28:29

Will think about what I can contribute when I get back from Tucson. Have some stuff on my blog, and perhaps the text version of my Briare book could be interesting.

Also, I have some European articles that maybe not everyone has seen.

Actually, thinking as I am typing: I made a list of books and articles for my book on Beads from Briare. I will copy-paste it below.

Bibliography


Nourisson, Pascale. Une Aventure Industrielle: La manufacture de Briare (1837-1962). Saint-Cyr-sur-Loire, France, 2001

Neuwirth, Dr Waltraud. Beads from Gablonz: Hisoricism, Art Nouveau. Vienna, Austria, 1994

Brakel, Koos van. The Bead goes on: The Sample Card Collection with Trade Beads from the Company J.K. Sick & Co. In the Tropemuseum. Amsterdam, The Netherlands, 2006

Jargstorf, Sibylle. Glass Beads from Europe. Atglen, USA, 1995

Jargstorf, Sibylle. Baubles, Buttons and Beads; The heritage of Bohemia. Atglen, USA, 1993

Francis, Peter Jr. Beads of the world: a Collector’s guide with price reference. Atglen, USA, 1994

Oei, Loan. Pracht en Kraal: van Madonna tot Masaï. Amsterdam, The Netherlands, 2006

Dubin, Lois Sherr. The history of beads; from 30.000 BC to the present. New York, USA, 1987

Sleen, W.G. van der. A Handbook of Beads. York, USA, 1967

Domisse, Herman. One million beads: Europese Inventie, Afrikaanse Creatie. Leerdam, The Netherlands, 2007

National Button Society. Guidelines for collecting China Buttons. Boyertown, USA, 1970

Picard, John and Ruth. Volume VI: Millefiori beads from the West African Trade. Carmel, USA, 1991

Picard, John and Ruth. Volume VII: Chevron and Nueva Cadiz Beads. Carmel, USA, 1993

Novy, Petr. Jablonecka bizuterie. Prague, 2008

Articles

Turgan, Julian. Les Grandes Usines: Études industrielles en France et à l'étranger. France, 1865. Translated from French to English by Matthew Brown

Picard, John and Ruth. The French Connection: Prosser beads revisited. 1995. Found on http://www.beadcollector.net/picards/

Bead Collectors Network. Several discussions from 2006-2011 on www.beadcollectors.net

Parkert, Otto W. Die Perle und ihre künstliche Erzeugung. Naunhof bei Leipzig, Deutschland, 1925. Published in Neuwirth, Beads from Gablonz, Translated from German to English by Floor Kaspers

Opper, Marie-Jose and Howard. French Beadmaking: An Historical Perspective Emphasizing the 19th and 20th Centuries in "Beads: Journal of the Society of Bead Researchers, 1991 Volume 3, edited by Karlis Karklins.



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Re: Good idea
Re: Good idea -- floorkasp Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: dannoh40 Post Reply
01/27/2012, 10:13:18

See...thats what I mean...I had no idea that you even had a blog....and I've been hanging around for a long time...10 years+.
And....Why are there so many blogs???? When a "NEWBIE" and believe me, I'm forever in that catigory, comes to the point they decide to really try and research theri beads, They don't know all this blog and group stuff.(take it from me) They/I need a one-stop does it all kind of forum.
Thats what I found here at BCN. Thats why, at my store, I always tell people about BCN.
Now I'm finding out that there's a possability to have acsess to ton's of great,if not the best,bead information on earth right here at BCN.
I love the articals we already have here at BCN but it's time for more..
I fly radio controlled helicopters when I'm not doing beads..RC Heli flying is a real HOBBY,beads are in a leuge by themself.
However...Eventhough I'm not a member of any heli-blogs, I have visited their forums.
They have a newbie section on their forum,they have sub-forums on topics such as.Transmitters,servos,rotor heads...etc
Maybe we could devide our threds into different catigories???you know....Bead ID,Ancient,Venetians..etc.
And like I said befor...Some of you guy's who have been selling,importing and trading beads forever should have lots of advise and photos on how to help folks learn about fakes and condition issues.
I looked around for a great bead dissussion forum to hook-up with,BCN was my choise...
I tell my costomers to come here if they doubt my representation of a bead....I believe what I get here....(and I really love the drama that happens here from time to time)I wish we had a section for just those threds...anyhow..
I see the potenital for a great site to become "THE"site about beads
I'll help....whatever I can do....who should I send the manuscripts I have to???
I have some ideas for catigories for putting things in a time order for studing...can we scan things and send them in for sharring??(I don't like any shareware type stuff,too easy to hack into)but downloadable from BCN...
Oh well, This idea will show that I'm really as crazy as my posts would indicate, or that anyone can come up with a good idea..
Thanks for listening to my blab...dannoh



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David has just informed me privately that I've just about worn out my welcome here.
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Posted by: beadster Post Reply
01/21/2012, 20:03:02

Like I said...



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Re: David has just informed me privately that I've just about worn out my welcome here.
Re: David has just informed me privately that I've just about worn out my welcome here. -- beadster Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: dannoh40 Post Reply
01/22/2012, 12:01:34

Sounds like BCN has a new myrtre. As I mentioned in a related post,"beads arn't a power trip"...I came into this hobby/lifestyle as a complete idoit...I had collecting thrusted upon me,not a choice I made to become a collector....I remember the first time I finally posted what I thought was a very ancient bead...(it looked just like the photo in so and so's book) so I knew it was real...
NOT..So when these bead housewife's at BCN told me it was fake....I knew they must be fools. In my mind I questioned their expertise...
I looked far and wide to find a way to descredit them,in MY mind....
I finally started researching beads in ernest.What a difference that made. I have learned to value the advice here at BCN. And insted of using these folks for the bottom line on a bead...I found their advise to be a point to start from, not the end of my search....thats being lazy...Remember..relax and enjoy their company, you won't find this kind of help for free anywhere else in the world....
You say yor just going to continue to enjoy your beads....It doesn't seem to me that your enjoying your beads. You are using this forum for boosting your ego..just look at all your post her....I cant speak for the others here at BCN but for the last few weeks all I see here on this forum is you. Look at me look at me look at me...what's this...whats this and then,...you guy's are full of ----....I have found that if your question asked is too elementry or for boosting your ego, no one answers....some things we should already know if we're really studing beads. So I have learned how ask a question that helps lead me to the path where my research can start...And I still foul up and hear...You asked the same question last year....don't you remember???????
But The more I learn...the less I fall over my own words...
I quess the bottom line here is..BCN..love it or leave it....



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Re: Re: David has just informed me privately that I've just about worn out my welcome here.
Re: Re: David has just informed me privately that I've just about worn out my welcome here. -- dannoh40 Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: dannoh40 Post Reply
01/24/2012, 11:48:24

Dear forumites...I would like to say I'm sorry for using the term "bead housewifes" in my prior post.
As usual, I probubly didn't find the perfect term to discrib what I ment.Nor was I reaching to anyone in particular.
I was trying to show how I was trying in my mind to deminish BCN's credibility. you know...what do these fool know...their geeks..a bunch of wanna be's....
But unlike some folks that get a bead/s shot down as fakes and get all p-ssed off.. I chilled and started studying in ernest...
When I learned a little more, I was finally ready to post. I had some very personal help from Joyce and Roseanna, Carl and so many more I can't mention them all..
I say dumb things all the time, thats just dannoh, but I value everyone here at BCN and look forward to blabing here for years to come.

1_Blue.JPG ( bytes)  


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Sunday show and tell: a tribute to millies and their (distant) cousins
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Posted by: floorkasp Post Reply
01/15/2012, 03:30:13


Lately I had been ignoring my millefiori bead collection for a bit, so it was time to get re-acquinted.
I will show a selection of Venetian millefioris, millefiori replicas and millefiori related bits and beads.

1_millie1.jpg (25.8 KB)  1_millie2.jpg (47.7 KB)  


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a few more
Re: Sunday show and tell: a tribute to millies and their (distant) cousins -- floorkasp Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: globalbeads Post Reply
01/15/2012, 19:31:14

P1120877.gif (167.8 KB)  P1120509.gif (166.5 KB)  
Kathleen, Global Beads, Inc

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Okay, it's a bad smiley face...
Re: a few more -- globalbeads Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadster Post Reply
01/15/2012, 19:57:00

...but, they are authentic Venetians...no? And, certainly they pale in comparison to what has been shown here. And, as it's been pointed out to me...my collection is probably full of fakes.

Anyway, I like how the dog bones compliment those oval watchamacallit's! One day, perhaps, they will form a bracelet.

They're not Indian....are they? :)

IMG_20120115_224859-1.jpg (84.5 KB)  


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Faux or no?
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Posted by: Beadster Post Reply
01/13/2012, 17:00:16

IMG_20120113_195751-1.jpg (9188 bytes)  IMG_20120113_195717.jpg (94.7 KB)  


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Very Faux.
Re: Faux or no? -- Beadster Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Carl Dreibelbis Post Reply
01/13/2012, 17:58:31



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Re: Very Faux.
Re: Very Faux. -- Carl Dreibelbis Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadster Post Reply
01/13/2012, 19:22:11

And, would you care to elaborate? Is it a repro from Rings&Things that has been aged? If those are repros, then what are they reproducing if not something that looks very similar? Have you ever seen one of the originals of the same design as the ones sold at Rings&Things? I know you're an experienced bead person...it would be nice to hear some of your reasons for your declaration. I already know the reason that you've seen enough authentic and enough fakes to know the difference.

Does anyone have an original in this shape or are the repros merely designs inspired by originals?

And, I'm not being a know it all...just asking questions as someone that is let's say perhaps a bit interested and not as knowledgeable.



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Re: Re: Generally it's helpful when one hopes for input about their bead or beads....
Re: Re: Generally it's helpful when one hopes for input about their bead or beads.... -- Beadster Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadster Post Reply
01/14/2012, 22:42:08

I have witnessed how some here have stated that indeed certain authentic beads are expensive and perhaps rare. I've also seen some here making fun of the price of some dZi beads on e-bay. It almost seems a contradiction at times...no. You know, at one time saying an authentic bead should have a nice price tag and then when a nice price tag is seen....it's laughable. Isn't that just how revered some dZi beads are in Tibet. I think I read that the one Sting wears or has worn was about 9 or 10 thousand. And, I've seen you make fun of the price asked for certain glass snail beads sold by someone that had been a regular here once upon a time. And, I'm just making an observation here. :)

IMG_20120114_102529.jpg (138.8 KB)  


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Re: Re: Re: Generally it's helpful when one hopes for input about their bead or beads....
Re: Re: Re: Generally it's helpful when one hopes for input about their bead or beads.... -- Beadster Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: dannoh40 Post Reply
01/15/2012, 11:44:35

Well well well....sounds like someone buys beads only by judging them against a picture...Fakes are a big biz..
And no you can't always make a judgment using a photograph..However...
Knowing at least a little of the science of glass and of beads is the best protection you can have..
Just because a bead you have looks just like the one in the photo or artical doesn't mean yours is real.
You need to study beads for a long time...you can read old threds here and see how some of these folks have progressed insofar as their knowledg of beads.
We have all been douped...Generally, I have found that someone who can't except the fact that they have been fooled usually has a large collection of fakes in thier bead invantory.
I get great advise here at bcn and what you have to remember is....their advise should only be a starting point for your own exploration into the bead ou have made a topic...You are responsible for knowing what you have,and if you havn't done your homework....you can and will get burned....
I don't think I've ever seen a fake bead sold here that wasn't listed as a fake or repo....
That being said...I think you need to slow down a little and go to some expos and ask lots of questions...relax...and enjoy beads...it's not a power trip...someone will asways have a cooler bead then yours....god luck



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Bead ID?
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Posted by: Beadster Post Reply
01/13/2012, 16:46:27

Is it just one of those repro Warring states from say Rings&Things that has been aged well?

IMG_20120113_194317.jpg (98.7 KB)  IMG_20120113_194137.jpg (73.9 KB)  


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Re: A repro
Re: A repro -- sandrowjw Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadster Post Reply
01/14/2012, 10:43:08

If you check page 160 in the revised and expanded edition of "The History of Beads," you will see that the Chinese did use green glass for beads in the fifth to third century B.C. Of course the bead shown there is not identified as a Warring States bead nor are the others on the page...though I'm sure many of you would refer to at least a few of them as such. Maybe the book has it wrong? This bead was not sold as a Warring States bead anyway. The funny thing is that I was at Beadazzled in Washington DC and Kathleen who is the manager there held the bead in her hand and said it was a "Warring States" bead. It's a very heavy bead and I do know that barium was used in the Chinese glass beads which makes them heavier. Jan Skipper already told me it was a fake from the photo and a woman at the bead museum in Glendale was uncertain about the very neat opening. And, I purchased a smaller version personally from a man in New York. He presented the bead just as the larger one was presented. Regardless, I absolutely love this bead. And, I won't stop asking just because someone here dismisses it as a fake. Does anyone have one similar...I'd love to see it.

IMG_20120114_133938-1.jpg (16.9 KB)  IMG_20120114_134027-1.jpg (27.3 KB)  


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No expertise on Chinese beads here....
Re: Re: A repro -- Beadster Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: floorkasp Post Reply
01/15/2012, 02:47:04

but I thought you might enjoy these pictures. To be clear, for as far as I can tell, all items on these pictures (from the Beijing Panjiyuan market) are replica's, fakes, articifially aged items.

1_beijing_20113.jpg (84.9 KB)  beijing_201117.jpg (76.0 KB)  


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I couldn't be more thrilled with my fake head pendant...
Post Reply Edit Forum
Posted by: Beadster Post Reply
01/14/2012, 23:02:10

...it saved me the trip to the souq in Syria where I'm told it most likely came from by a British antiquities dealer as well as Jan Skipper. The other photo is a similar head bead sold at auction by Chritie's. I think the maker did an excellent job of mimicking this bead. And, while I've seen the fakes that Tasart has acquired and shown here, I didn't see one like this in the group. In fact, I'm not ashamed to say that I was the only bidder in the auction and it was it's second time on the block. I'm going to put the Carthaginian rod formed glass head pendant from Christie's in the following post.

IMG_20120114_224435.jpg (156.9 KB)  IMG_20120114_224729.jpg (157.2 KB)  


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Petrified Wood?
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Posted by: svazzo Post Reply
01/13/2012, 01:22:20

Here is a larger one, that looks like Petrified Wood, with great marbling.
Also seems to have been heavily worn by grooves it has.

BEAD_Wood_Marble_age?.jpg (106.0 KB)  BEAD_Wood_Marble_age?_2.jpg (132.1 KB)  


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Jasper?
Re: Petrified Wood? -- svazzo Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: floorkasp Post Reply
01/13/2012, 02:10:47

It looks like some type of jasper to me....
You may find the link below interesting, is is a great overview of stone types, including names (and fakes) that are often used when it comes to the bead industry.


Related link: Gemstone index from Rings & Things

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SHARING is CARING...:)
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Posted by: dreamfeat Post Reply
01/08/2012, 15:56:24

I have to admit I am feeling a tad bit spoiled, and was shocked to say the least that I received these for Christmas. One Lucky Girl...:)Of course I know very little about these beads, but after seeing the price tags I hope they are authentic, they came from a personal collection of a man my Dad bought from over a 20 year period. I apologize ahead of time for the spelling of his name, Mohammadu Drame, whom I believe has since retired somewhere in LA. Enjoy:) I have been avidly researching them since. Any input or information as always is greatly appreciated!~Anne

NEW_BEAD_PICS_DEC_8,_2011:EBay_-_024.jpg (48.8 KB)  NEW_BEAD_PICS_DEC_8,_2011:EBay_-_025.jpg (44.9 KB)  


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Jatims
Re: SHARING is CARING...:) -- dreamfeat Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: will Post Reply
01/09/2012, 07:02:22

Hi Anne,

It looks as though you got a wonderful Christmas present and you'll have a great time investigating each and every one of them - because that is what you will have to do.

Jatims comes from Java Timor - East java - where they were made in ancient times (C5-7) and again the past twenty years or so.

It really is very difficult - even impossible some of the time - to separate the authentic from the fake on the basis of photographs. I even find it hard sometimes with a fake in one hand and the real thing in the other. But from what I can see here I think there's a good chance that at least several of your green and yellow beads and some too of the red/blue/yellow ones are genuine.

I'm pretty certain that the pelangi (rainbow) bead is a fake made in the early to mid 90s, not because of its size, as Flor suggests, which is actually not abnormal, but because of the colours and composition (it's almost certainly not all glass). I'll attach a pic of a genuine, well-provenanced one (5cm), for comparison.

Also, I'm very doubtful of the bird/sun beads. I think the white motifs might very probably have been added later to what may be an older monochrome bead.

But really these are all worth spending a lot of time with. Read Jamey Allen's book Magical Ancient Beads and also check out Jatims in the archive here, which will give you a lot of additional information. And then try sorting them out yourself; soon, I bet, you'll be separating the real treasures from the later copies. And on another level it doesn't matter too much anyway; even the fakes are beautiful beads in their own right.

Cheers,

Will

Pelangi177.jpg (70.0 KB)  


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This type of thing drives me crazy
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Posted by: beadweyr Post Reply
12/11/2011, 10:50:21

I know we have posted stuff like this in the past but for some reason this seller really pisses me off. Maybe it is because someone is buying a fake L&C bead for $125 or the fake ambassador bead for $54. Read the descriptions they are classic.

Just a few from this seller from our favorite online auction house:

360417117268
130615100126
360417074106
360417074105
130615100120



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Re: This type of thing drives me crazy
Re: This type of thing drives me crazy -- beadweyr Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Jim Johnson Post Reply
12/11/2011, 13:05:37

Thanks for your posting. I search Ebay every day for "Indian Trade Beads" - these beads came up in that search.
Having only been a member of BCN for a year, and learning new things every day from BCN folks, how does one spot these beads as fakes?? Where and when were they made??
I do see "Indian Trade Beads" very frequently that are clearly African (Raffia is a dead give-away) or beads that simply were never traded to Native Americans in the US. Ebay sellers even try to pass off sand cast strands/singles and Miiefiori beads as found at Native American sites....



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An idea.....
Re: Lewis&Clark comparison -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: floorkasp Post Reply
12/12/2011, 07:11:31

Perhaps those of us going to Tucson could bring some of our finest or most interesting replica beads. We can compare notes, take pictures (possibly next to the original ones) and post them on here?
I have made a post on millefiori replicas on my blog before, but it needs updating. Also, it does not include any beads like fancies or chevrons.


Related link: Millies: scroll down

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Re: An idea.....
Re: An idea..... -- floorkasp Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: TASART Post Reply
12/13/2011, 04:14:49

Actually we have a ton of great info already here on the forum, the search may be a bit tough at times but possibly the makings of a permanent exhibit?

image


Related link: just one older post regarding fakes, copies and comparisons

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A Link to an older thread regarding fakes and copies
Re: Re: An idea..... -- TASART Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: TASART Post Reply
12/13/2011, 10:58:28


Related link: OLD POSTS REGARDING FAKES AND COPIES

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A Moroccan find....Thomas....what do you think?
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Posted by: red Post Reply
11/28/2011, 14:26:57

This is a very broken faux chevron bead with an old repair
but huge!! Never seen this size before.

lampworkchevron34bcn.jpg (151.2 KB)  lampworkchevron766bcn.jpg (118.6 KB)  


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Re: A Moroccan find....Thomas....what do you think?
Re: A Moroccan find....Thomas....what do you think? -- red Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: red Post Reply
11/28/2011, 15:05:42

36 mm long x 26 mm wide
sorry thought I had put a scale in the pic!
S x



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