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Bead ID please
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Posted by: hanz muff Post Reply
04/30/2008, 10:12:18

Somebody know about these two Face Beads ? there are out of Thailand
This are fakes from Indonesia ?
Thanks for reply Hanz-muff

L1010968.jpg (34.5 KB)  L1010970.jpg (38.2 KB)  


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one more face bead
Re: Bead ID please -- hanz muff Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: hanz muff Post Reply
04/30/2008, 10:14:39

One more face bead out of china

L1010973.jpg (35.7 KB)  L1010974.jpg (35.1 KB)  


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Venetian ?
Re: Bead ID please -- hanz muff Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: hanz muff Post Reply
04/30/2008, 10:18:37

This bead is out of africa

L1010977.jpg (22.1 KB)  L1010979.jpg (24.7 KB)  


Modified by hanz muff at Wed, Apr 30, 2008, 10:19:24

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It doesn't look Venetian to me.
Re: Venetian ? -- hanz muff Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
05/01/2008, 01:30:13



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So what you think ? The bead made where ?
Re: It doesn't look Venetian to me. -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: hanz muff Post Reply
05/01/2008, 07:54:34



Modified by hanz muff at Thu, May 01, 2008, 07:55:42

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I can't see it well enough to get a feel for it. Can you post additional larger scans?
Re: So what you think ? The bead made where ? -- hanz muff Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
05/01/2008, 14:28:28



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It's a recent Chinese fake. See my paper for the IBBC.
Re: Bead ID please -- hanz muff Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
05/01/2008, 01:31:00



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Thanks Jamey, ok both of them are fakes and the third it's a copy too ?
Re: It's a recent Chinese fake. See my paper for the IBBC. -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: hanz muff Post Reply
05/01/2008, 07:59:13



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Some Similar Reproductions
Re: Bead ID please -- hanz muff Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
05/01/2008, 18:58:32

Here's Plate V from my IBBC paper, and an enlargement of a group of recent Chinese head pendant reproductions (courtesy of Robert Liu).

Jamey

JA_plate_five.jpg (81.4 KB)  RKL_fake_chinese.jpg (74.2 KB)  


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Thanks a lot for your information
Re: Some Similar Reproductions -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: hanz muff Post Reply
05/01/2008, 21:57:44



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Chinese Reproductions?
Re: Some Similar Reproductions -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Russ Nobbs Post Reply
05/01/2008, 23:33:23

Great group of reproductions in that tray you credit to Robert Liu, Jamey. Thanks for posting that.

Is Robert sure those are all made in China? There are a few that are very close to Indonesian ones I've collected in Bali. The lower right hand is one. I'm sure the Indonesians make copies of the old face beads just like the Chinese.



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Re: Chinese Reproductions?
Re: Chinese Reproductions? -- Russ Nobbs Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
05/02/2008, 02:25:09

Hi Russ,

As I understand it, these came from a collector who believed these specimens were all authentic. Robert had a deuce of a time convincing this person that they were all new reproductions. Several are actually based on historical pieces, and are more-or-less reasonable copies. I am familiar with the original piece that is in the lower right corner—and I have seen other reproductions of it as well. But these all came out of China, and I am reasonably sure they had been made there. But, certainly, similar repros are made elsewhere too.

The owner was convinced that there was an ancient Chinese glass tradition of making head pendants similar to the Mediterranean practice, but consisting of different expressions. Of course, this is nonsense. First of all, it places an undue importance upon Chinese traditions (because glass was just not a valued material, particularly in antiquity—the Warring States and Han beads being significant exceptions). Next, because these heads are clearly copies of existing pendants that have been published and exhibited, it's highly unlikely they would belong to some Chinese tradition (unknown to Robert and everyone else). Then, we have the problem that the current popular export industry presents us with these exact same pendants and beads; while the antiquities marketplace is rife with the SAME articles that have been artificially aged to appear old. But the new unchanged beads demonstrate the truth.

Of course, an obvious intention that sellers of fakes would like people to believe is that ancient Chinese folks received and revered Mediterranean glass—and that these face pendants are proof of that. I firmly believe that Phoenician eye beads went to China, and were the inspiration for Warring States beads. I don't think there can be any doubt of this (as I have said many times over the past seventeen years). But I don't know of an instance where a Phoenician head pendant as been recovered in a Chinese context. It's not impossible; but still, a few pendants do not a tradition make. And anyway—these are fakes!

Not everyone is psychologically prepared to hear the truth. The owner was not.

Jamey



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Jamey - I love all these faces. Seems like each has a story to tell.
Re: Some Similar Reproductions -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Austin Cooper Post Reply
05/02/2008, 06:01:19



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Chinese opera, Monkeys, Oxen, Sheep & Dilbert
Re: Some Similar Reproductions -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
05/02/2008, 07:44:53

As someone who has limited pre-existing notions about these beads - all I know is what I've read in Ornament and Dubin - I was amused at my first impressions, noted in the subject line. Second from bottom right was Dilbert's pointy-haired boss.

Again, as a rather naive viewer, I see very little close resemblance to Mediterranean face beads.

A quote from a gemmologist acquaintance, Barbara Voltaire:
"People want to accept convenient answers without asking inconvenient questions."

--Chris



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The point is that the differences make the attribution possible.
Re: Chinese opera, Monkeys, Oxen, Sheep & Dilbert -- beadiste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
05/02/2008, 12:50:20



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Well duh!
Re: Chinese opera, Monkeys, Oxen, Sheep & Dilbert -- beadiste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
05/02/2008, 18:15:19



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"I see very little close resemblance to Mediterranean face beads."
Re: Well duh! -- beadiste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
05/05/2008, 02:50:47

Dear Chris,

First off, the topic is head pendants. A "face bead" is a very different object entirely. This artifact in the form of a bead is a head bead.

Although you do not see a resemblance to Mediterranean head pendants, many or most of these examples are copies of prototypes—and it is not unusual to be able to make a reasonable estimate which pendant was the model for any particular example. My point was that, in spite of similarities (that I think are apparent), it is the differences that matter.

JDA.



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Fakes, reproductions, other modern products
Re: Bead ID please -- hanz muff Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Snap Post Reply
05/02/2008, 15:06:24

Jamey's observations are very valuable concerning what he *knows* have been coming out of China, and possibly elsewhere, recently.

The ones you show do not closely resemble the ancient pendants or beads made in the southern and eastern Mediterranean Rim area.

They have been treated in such a way as to present an 'ancient' appearance, but it would be wise to be able to recognize what is known to have been made in ancient times so that you can recognize what is *not* a typical sort of product.

In other fields I know from experience what a surge of adrenaline may accompany espying something presented as 'antique' or whatever that also seems *unique*. The trick is to let the adrenaline have its way, but refrain from acquisition. I am among many for whom it took learning from mistakes to do the second part! So many times the 'story' presented with the item is 1000 times better than the item. One must learn to let the item tell its own story.

It is worthwhile studying items believed genuine that are pictured in the better bead books. In addition, some excavated examples now in the collection of the British Museum are pictured on page 43 of Hugh Tait, ed., _Five Thousand Years of Glass_ (British Museum Press, 1991, rev. ed. 2004), which is widely and inexpensively available. I can't post the splendid photos, they are under copyright.

Good hunting,
Snap



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Tombodama
Re: Bead ID please -- hanz muff Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
05/10/2008, 19:26:39

Jamey, I was looking through my copy of Tombodama today, and the face pendants you showed in your post above look as if they were copied straight out of this book. The differences between the originals and the copies are quite apparent - one can almost work along the rows of that box and match the items up with the book pictures.

I see this book title was re-issued in 2003 - as a paperback? Any revision done?
http://snipurl.com/28akf [www_honya-town_co_jp]

Chris


Related link: Original 1989 version
Modified by beadiste at Sat, May 10, 2008, 19:50:06

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Re: Tombodama
Re: Tombodama -- beadiste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
05/11/2008, 01:50:55

Hi Chris,

You jogged my memory! I recall that there were some similar repros in that book. I think possibly the odd three-dimensional head on a stalk was one. In any event, I saw it in a Japanese publication from that time. I currently have about six or seven similar books that were produced in Japan and China, and are essentially the same sort of format.

The author of Tombodama was rumored to be working on a revision, some years ago now. I wrote to him and offered to help. I never heard back.

I don't know if it was reissued and/or revised. Unfortunately, my opinion is that most of these sorts of publications are vanity works, that repeat myth and report nonsense, and seldom have much value beyond the photos, and as indicators of what these collecors find interesting.

Jamey



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What collectors find interesting
Re: Tombodama -- beadiste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
05/11/2008, 09:01:22

Indeed. Remember the Picards' books and their use by African traders in their efforts to discover just what collectors were seeking?

This particular book has lots of illustrations of exactly the types of beads collectors were/are looking for, plus step-by-step photo sequences of a Japanese glassworker demonstrating techniques for making the reproductions! And it's been out for almost 20 years now.

From what I can see of the dates in the captions, the text can only be as you have described - a recounting of existing myths and lore. But as a manual for fakes, it's perfect, and seems to have been put to use for just that, judging from that boxful of pendants.

Chris



Modified by beadiste at Sun, May 11, 2008, 09:03:01

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Re: What collectors find interesting
Re: What collectors find interesting -- beadiste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: gabriel Post Reply
05/11/2008, 16:39:44

You say that this Japanese book is a perfect manual for fakes. Do you mean that most of the beads shown in the book are fakes ?

Gabriel



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Re: What collectors find interesting
Re: Re: What collectors find interesting -- gabriel Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
05/11/2008, 17:54:16

I mean that it's a guide to 1) the popular varieties of beads deemed collectible, and 2) techniques for making reproductions. The beads in the photos are, so far as I can tell, genuine, and featured in publications elsewhere. But if that weird stalked head is not an authentic ancient bead (Jamey? Is that what you meant?), then we have the irony of a fake in a book being faked in the box.

In other words, the book shows one exactly what to reproduce and how to do it. Unintentionally, most likely. I very much doubt the author saw his audience as fake antiquities glass workshops in Indonesia and/or China.

Chris



Modified by beadiste at Sun, May 11, 2008, 19:59:07

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I agree. Most, nearly all, of the beads shown are authentic, apart from repros proudly shown.
Re: Re: What collectors find interesting -- beadiste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
05/12/2008, 01:18:36



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Thank you for clarification.
Re: I agree. Most, nearly all, of the beads shown are authentic, apart from repros proudly shown. -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: gabriel Post Reply
05/12/2008, 03:27:23



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Chinese Fakes Revisited
Re: Bead ID please -- hanz muff Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
04/28/2020, 14:17:33

April 28, 2020

This past year, on a trip abroad, I was shown two "ancient Chinese head pendants." I immediately said they were fakes, and that I was familiar with them—and had published several in my Istanbul paper from 2007.

I remarked that these were loosely based on Phoenician Period head beads and pendants, and were made differently—so their authenticity was easily challenged.

He said, "But these are Chinese antiquities, so they need not look like the Mediterranean pieces."

And then he showed me a short published report, by a Chinese archaeologist, purporting to affirm that the two pendants shown (that were nearly identical to the two pieces I was looking at) were indeed ancient and authentic. I took a photo of the report. And also photos of the pendants we were discussing.

Once I returned to the US, I contacted Robert Liu, and told him about this exchange. And said I had seen the person's two head pendants, and the short report. (I knew Robert would be interested, and his connection to the situation was that he supplied me with photos for my Istanbul paper of 2007.)

Robert said, "I know this report." (!) "The Chinese archaeologist is in big trouble in China, for having been duped into writing a report about fake beads, being passed off as authentic antiquities."

(I am paraphrasing all of the above dialogues from my memory. But they present the gist of actual conversations.)

So, from all this, we know: 1) Fake Chinese head pendants that slightly resemble Phoenician Period specimens, are being manufactured and passed-off as Chinese antiquities. 2), A Chinese archaeologist was duped into contributing to the scam—and will suffer professionally for the error. 3) A report exists and is being circulated, that purports to affirm the authenticity of these products—but it is a scam.

Jamey



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