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Bead ID please. Indonesian?
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Posted by: karavanserai Post Reply
12/29/2019, 05:37:29

Hello these beads were on a strand with some morfia's. They don't feel Venetian, but maybe Indonesian or....?
Thank you for your help.

diameter: between 11mm - 13mm
length: 11mm - 12mm
hole:3mm

Happy holidays!!

IMG_0772.jpg (86.6 KB)  IMG_0773.jpg (81.3 KB)  
martine

Modified by karavanserai at Tue, Dec 31, 2019, 09:36:59

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Japanese?
Re: Bead ID please. Indonesian? -- karavanserai Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: floorkasp Post Reply
12/29/2019, 10:13:09

Though the patterns do not look familiar to me, the type of hole, the colors and the way one is cracked, looks very much like some of the antique Japanese beads I have seen. Perhaps others can chime in?



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These are indeed curious beads. Do they include translucent red glass? That is important!
Re: Bead ID please. Indonesian? -- karavanserai Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
12/30/2019, 00:53:02



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No translucent red to be seen
Re: These are indeed curious beads. Do they include translucent red glass? That is important! -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Karavanserai Post Reply
12/30/2019, 03:42:37

Against daylight all layers are dense matte.
Held against a LED lamp the 2 green beads stay matte, the 2 brown with swirls stay matte,
But the 3 blue with swirls: all colours stay matte except the blue which is translucent.

Can you please expand on the significance of the red being translucent or not. Thank you.

martine

Modified by Karavanserai at Mon, Dec 30, 2019, 04:01:42

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From 2006
Re: Bead ID please. Indonesian? -- karavanserai Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
12/30/2019, 05:08:26

In brief terms:

There is an ancient group of beads that are typically black, with white trails that have been combed into zigzags, of Middle Eastern origin. Some of these have an opaque brick-red trail over the white trail—thus being bicolored.

There is also a group of European trade beads, that have a very similar appearance. However, the red glass is translucent. And I have proposed that these beads copy or imitate the ancient beads—and that they date from post-1825, this being the provisional time that the Venetian industry seems to have begun exploiting translucent red glass. However, since it seems that the Bohemians had this glass earlier, I say it's possible such beads MIGHT be fom earlier than 1825, and made in Bohemia. (Unfortunately, there is no explicit documentation that supports these ideas; and this was before the time that sample cards became an industry standard.)

But, in any event, we can distinguish between the ancient beads and modern beads because of the differences in the opacity-or-translucency of the red glasses. Also (and very important!), is the fact that the ancient beads were furnace-wound; and the modern beads are lampworked. It is fairly common that the trade beads have been passed-off as "ancient" beads.

The beads you are showing us look like yet another iteration. They don't really look like either previous group. But they might be inspired by either group. I asked about the diaphaneity of the red glass as a beginning.

Unfortunately, photos, while being much better than nothing, cannot substitute for being able to examine a bead in-person. What I see are some characteristics that are difficult to comprehend, unless I can see the conformations in-the-round.

But I have to suspect these are recent beads. And the candidates are Java (but not excluding India or China—though these seem less-likely). Your beads also seem to be somewhat smaller than the beads they imitate.

I will show some past dialogues.

Jamey

http://beadcollector.net/cgi-bin/anyboard.cgi?fvp=/openforum/&cmd=iYz&aK=40534&iZz=40534&gV=0&kQz=&aO=1&iWz=0


Related link: http://beadcollector.net/cgi-bin/anyboard.cgi?fvp=/openforum/&cmd=iYz&aK=40534&iZz=40534&gV=0&kQz=&aO=1&iWz=0

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Re: From 2009
Re: From 2006 -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
12/30/2019, 12:33:57

The beads shown in this dialogue include a few of the combed beads; but it's mostly about the agate-glass beads—that are part of the same issues (since these also include translucent red glass in some versions—AND these beads are also routinely misrepresented as "ancient").

So this is another round of explaining technical aspects (glass colors and lampwork fabrication) that are revealing. JDA.

http://beadcollector.net/cgi-bin/anyboard.cgi?fvp=/openforum/&cmd=iYz&aK=65625&iZz=65625&gV=0&kQz=&aO=1&iWz=0


Related link: http://beadcollector.net/cgi-bin/anyboard.cgi?fvp=/openforum/&cmd=iYz&aK=65625&iZz=65625&gV=0&kQz=&aO=1&iWz=0

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My camera really gave up. For what it's worth these are 2 lousy attempts
Re: From 2006 -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: karavanserai Post Reply
01/02/2020, 06:32:29

If I manage to get better ones I'll post them later on.

IMG_0818(1a).jpg (45.8 KB)  IMG_0819(1b).jpg (33.0 KB)  
martine

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some better ones
Re: My camera really gave up. For what it's worth these are 2 lousy attempts -- karavanserai Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: karavanserai Post Reply
01/02/2020, 09:07:34

DSC_0002.jpg (50.6 KB)  DSC_0005a.jpg (42.9 KB)  
martine

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some more
Re: My camera really gave up. For what it's worth these are 2 lousy attempts -- karavanserai Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: karavanserai Post Reply
01/02/2020, 09:09:11

DSC_0006a.jpg (40.2 KB)  DSC_0007a.jpg (40.2 KB)  
martine

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and more
Re: My camera really gave up. For what it's worth these are 2 lousy attempts -- karavanserai Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: karavanserai Post Reply
01/02/2020, 09:10:10

DSC_0008a_.jpg (42.8 KB)  DSC_0010a.jpg (27.9 KB)  
martine

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Thank you Floor and Jamey.
Re: Bead ID please. Indonesian? -- karavanserai Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: karavanserai Post Reply
12/30/2019, 10:53:42

I wish I could join you in Tucson with the beads, but unfortunately that won't be the case. I'll try a better picture tomorrow, but I know my macro lens no longer works perfectly, or rather the camera that goes along with it. I'll try anyway.

martine

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Indonesian?
Re: Bead ID please. Indonesian? -- karavanserai Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: hans Post Reply
12/30/2019, 16:06:54

hi Martine,
This strand is collected in 2008 and the beads are made in East Java. What do you think of the blue and green bead?
The size of the beads resemble yours. Would love to see the morfias
best wishes to all.

Java_beads_2008.jpg (253.7 KB)  


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Morfias?
Re: Indonesian? -- hans Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
12/30/2019, 19:52:47



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Morfia and others. Help please
Re: Indonesian? -- hans Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: karavanserai Post Reply
01/02/2020, 06:25:39

This is the rest of the strand. I'm afraid there are some other questionmarks.
- I have never seen a clear glass morfia. So I wonder

- there is one bead with eyes, and I wonder if they were not added afterwards. The pictures don't really show, but they were inserted.It looks like it is a mix of two types of beads.

- there is a bead with translucent blue that looks zo well preserved it might be a copy?

All comments are wellcome. I merely know these type of beads from books, so I am a neophyte

IMG_0809.jpg (148.6 KB)  IMG_0810.jpg (148.6 KB)  
martine

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more pictures
Re: Morfia and others. Help please -- karavanserai Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: karavanserai Post Reply
01/02/2020, 06:26:51

IMG_0815.jpg (95.9 KB)  IMG_0817(1).jpg (81.1 KB)  
martine

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and more
Re: Morfia and others. Help please -- karavanserai Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: karavanserai Post Reply
01/02/2020, 06:28:24

IMG_0817(1a).jpg (96.1 KB)  InkedIMG_0814_a_LIb.jpg (84.9 KB)  
martine

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No morfia
Re: Morfia and others. Help please -- karavanserai Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: hans Post Reply
01/02/2020, 08:24:14

Hi Martine,
This lot of beads look confident to me, but I can see no morfia between them.
Your kind of folded clear transparent bead I have never seen, but transparent glass was used in the Levant in the old days, so it is possible this is an old one too.



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Thank you Hans.
Re: No morfia -- hans Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: karavanserai Post Reply
01/02/2020, 08:57:08

what is the right definition of Murfia: do you refer to the bigger beads with red, green, yellow, and which specific time and place are we talking about then?
I think the term 'Murfia' is being loosely used amongst the traders in the Sahel.

martine

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Example
Re: Thank you Hans. -- karavanserai Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: hans Post Reply
01/02/2020, 10:25:43

I was more thinking about these kind of beads when mentioning morfia, see link.
and the half bead shown here, taken from my Boulevard of Broken Beads photostream.

Half_Morfia.jpg (177.3 KB)  

Related link: http://beadcollector.net/cgi-bin/anyboard.cgi?fvp=%2Fopenforum%2F&tK=morfia&yVz=yTz&hKz=1&hIz=300000&hJz=0&cmd=find&by=&xcfgfs=tK-wT-yVz-aO-hKz

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Thank you Hans, sorry,I should've done my homework beforehand, but
Re: Example -- hans Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: karavanserai Post Reply
01/02/2020, 11:05:32

I've too little time to let the seller know, so thanks for your help!

martine

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double post sorry
Re: Example -- hans Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: karavanserai Post Reply
01/02/2020, 11:05:48

martine

Modified by karavanserai at Thu, Jan 02, 2020, 11:07:13

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Link to 2007
Re: Morfia and others. Help please -- karavanserai Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
01/02/2020, 15:16:20

This is a long dialogue about morfia and other Mauritanian beads. It generated some hostile replies, and some nonsense—but that was not infrequent from some participants.

The beads you have been showing as "morfia" are folded beads—that are very different. A search on "Mali folded bead" would probably reveal several dialogues.

Happy 2020 Martine. Jamey

http://beadcollector.net/cgi-bin/anyboard.cgi?fvp=/openforum/&cmd=iYz&aK=48163&iZz=48163&gV=0&kQz=&aO=1&iWz=0


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Modified by Beadman at Fri, Jan 03, 2020, 20:04:49

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