Smallest bead

I saw some beads like these in time line a .by help of will.
Are they same?

Yes if they are light in weight, I'm fairly sure they are jet. The shapes are old, including the circle-dot patterns.
Measurements would help.
But where the raw material was found...could be middle east origin?
Stefany

from 833 AD and up.

Dear Ali,

I have discussed these beads quite a few times, online, over the past ten years (and many times in lectures and articles over the past twenty-five years)—most recently in my paper on the misrepresentation of modern beads as "ancient," for the IBBC (Istanbul Bead and Beadwork Conference, 2007). I also composed a pictorial post at my Yahoo Bead Group in 2002, for which the text messages are still available. (See the link below, and refer to Messages beginning with #76.)

Briefly, these are modern trade beads that have been misrepresented in the antiquities marketplace as "ancient" for quite a few years now. I have seen them said to be as old as from "the Phoenician Period" (ca. 2,500 years ago), and as "Egyptian," "Bactrian," "Roman," and "Islamic." I have also see them offered for sale for thousands of dollars (however, in the extreme case, strung with gold beads—which affects the price, to be sure).

There are several reasons why I believe these are trade beads. However, in my opinion, the most-telling clue is that they are LAMPWORK beads. Until quite recently (the 19th C. in Japan, the early 20th C. in China, and the tail-end of the 20th C./early 21st. C. elsewhere in Asia), lampworking was exclusively a European industry in terms of the commercial production of glass beads for export—and was initially developed in Europe. This being the case, lampwork beads cannot be "ancient" beads.

The same thing can be said for the dark beads with combed trailed lines (usually white with red or blue). These are MAINLY European (most likely Venetian) beads. However, in this instance, the European beads actually copy an Islamic Period bead, and it can be difficult to distinguish between them. The clue is that the modern European version uses translucent red glass (that did not exist for the Islamic Period beadmakers); and the Venetian beads are likewise lampworked—whereas the Islamic Period beads were furnace-worked.

Jamey

dear Jamey

the beads in the 1st 2 post are very well documented in archeological digs that took plays in Israel by the Israel antiquity arthritis .
and I don't think that they were wrong after all they wear found in a large period of time from the mid Islamic period into the ottoman period .
the reports are in Hebrew I will tray to get some translation for you
all the best
yankee

The Israeli Antiquities Authority is the governing body that decides what's what, and what can be owned personally and/or leave the country.

They make a lot of mistakes!

JDA.

English is a fifth or sixth language for more than one person here and I value their participation and knowledge tremendously.

Joyce.Dear all, I dont want to offend anyone, please delete the message.
I genuinely couldnt work out what he meant.
Stefany

I can't delete without leaving parts of the thread "orphaned" in this case. No harm done!

Well said!

Dear Yankee,

MANY mistakes are made with old beads. I recommend the paper by Rosanne Pfeifer (if I remember correctly) from the Proceedings of the Glass Trade Bead Conference, 1982, in which she discusses beads recovered at Caesaria—MANY of which were trade beads that were locally believed to be much older. (I helped her with this paper, after the Conference, prior to publication.)

The beads in question cannot be "well-documented"—or else it would be common knowledge that they are trade beads. I have been one of the very few authors to write about them. Peter Francis was another. However, his glass technology was poor, and he didn't make the "lampwork" argument that I have offered for a long time. Also, if the beads were well-documented I would not expect there to be so many different crazy ideas about what they are—this ranging over 2,500 years of time, and several regional areas.

Nevertheless, I would be very interested to read any report that pertains to these beads.

Remember, archaeology is not an exact science. It relies upon decent, proficient work, unambiguous stratigraphy or providential associations, and correct interpretation. In addition, it helps (a lot) to have a consultant handy who understands glass-beadmaking.

Anyone who recovers a lampworked bead and says it dates from 500 to 1,000 years ago will have a LOT of explaining to do. If this were credible, it would change the perspective of glassworking in a very unexpected and dynamic manner. It is infinitely easier to believe the beads are from later and have been misidentified.

Jamey

Dear Jamey
I am agree with you.i was sure these are not ancient glass beads
but i was woundering between 16 and 18th centuries.these beads are
famous here by safavid beads.which is 16 century.it is first government in iran which start relation with europian countries for
the first time in iran.we see alot of glass beads famous by safavid which i was suspect they might be europian.like venetian beads which we can see among old strands.about jets also you might be right becuse
i bought that big bead in kurdish part of iran which is close by turkey
but the rest i thik are from nishapur.thank you and yankee for comments.

Ali

Dear Ali,

The beads cannot exist before the time of the glass!

The Venetian beads exploit a translucent red glass that was only first used by Venice at ca. 1825. (It has not been demonstrated to be earlier, except possibly at Bohemia. No one knows when the Bohemians devised it, but it cannot be a lot earlier. They mainly used it to make glass reproductions of their famous garnets.) I am very careful to say "Venetian or European" because I don't know, for certain, who may have made these trade beads first (including the brown-&-white agate-glass beads—that are also in European red, blue, and green combined with white, and from the same general time).

Show me a single bead whose identity is not controversial, that is from the Islamic Period, that is made with translucent red glass. (As far as I know, without exception, ALL red glass from ancient times is OPAQUE copper-red—a glass that has been made continuously since at least 500 BCE.) From Medieval European times, there are a very few examples of translucent red glass, that was sparingly used in stained-glass windows. Also, it is said the Chinese made a dusky translucent red glass, used in some beads—but this is also fairly distinctive.

Show me a single lampworked bead from the Islamic Period. Same argument. The bead cannot exist before the technology to make it existed.

And, let's be clear. The COMBED BEADS have an authentic Islamic Period prototype, that the Venetian beads copy. They are very similar-looking—but they are not the same. Nevertheless, the bead world is full of people who naively believe that everything that looks like something else IS that something else.

I don't know of a prototype for the agate-glass beads. I do think the Chinese made a version of them—but I believe these are 20th C. beads, from the time when they learned lampworking from the Japanese, who learned it from Europeans.

Jamey

Dear Jamey
i told you i was sure these are not islamic period glass beads.
the reason i post them is what i didnt know the age.and about ventian
beads i know antique dealers in this confine didnt know them and thats why they put them with old beads.
Ali

I'm composing this message as someone who is not in any way anti-Islam. What is am is anti-poor-information.

Over the past twenty-five years I have had numerous dialogues with Middle Eastern and Central Asian bead sellers who deal in "antiquities." Probably more Afghans and Iranians than others. Many times, I have seen trade beads offered for sale as "ancient" beads ("Roman" or whatever).

Muslims cannot defile Muslim graves, as this would be a sacrilege; but they have fewer prohibitions with digging-up pre-Muslim sites. When I have told these guys that they are digging up historical graves or sites of less than 200 year's old, they are initially quite aghast—because they don't like the idea of 'digging up grandmother' (or similar horrors). They say, "these beads are ancient! We dig them from the ground--so they cannot be modern." Nevertheless, I can show quite a few examples of typical Venetian trade beads that were so-identified (as ancient), and I do show them in my IBBC paper.

At one show I attended at least eighteen years ago, I was shown an oval tabular agate bead, made from beizen (color-enhanced) green onyx from Idar Oberstein. This is a material I easily recognize. He was showing me the bead because he could tell I had an interest in ancient things. He claimed it was an "emerald." In the nicest way possible I told him it was a modern agate. He was adamant it could not be. He showed me a coin and asked if I knew what it was. (Coins are not my area--as we all know.) I said, "it's a coin of Alexander." And they agreed it was. But the gentlemen proceeded to tell me the modern green agate "came from the same place—and so MUST be ancient." And it didn't even look like an emerald....

There's a famous and popular company in New York that sells almost nothing but fake antiquities. I will not mention the name for reasons that will become clear shortly. This company was showing their stuff at an antiquities show, maybe eighteen to twenty years ago, that I attended. One of the sellers was a younger man of around my age, who expressed interest in talking to me. I affirmed that some of his stuff was ancient, but many beads were modern trade beads. He was surprised, but did not reject my information, and seemed genuinely interested. So we talked about trade beads and ancient beads.

About a week or so later, I received a telephone call from his uncle or employer, who was very angry that I had disparaged his merchandise—and how dare I say his ancient beads were not ancient! I told him I hadn't (because I only said the modern beads were modern). This was apparently what he wanted to hear, because he did not press the issue. Because of the vehemence of his attitude I was happy to not argue with him—lest I be sued or dispatched by an assassin.

Many people, be they sellers or collectors, have strong opinions about their stuff, and fervently believe these things to be genuine and ancient. Unfortunately, belief only goes so far. One needs to be armed with knowledge, exposure to what's in the marketplace, the literature, the history and technology—and to have a healthy dose of skepticism (that does not fall into cynicism).

I have said and written repeatedly—the grand proportion of beads we will be offered will be said to be older, rarer, and more valuable than they really are. I cannot change the mind that is made-up. I can only be a voice of reason, and offer to teach anyone who cares. Thankfully, I have met some open people—which almost makes up for the strained and unpleasant exchanges that are more common. Thirty years ago, when I was still a kid, I naively thought that people naturally wanted "the truth" about anything. I learned after a number of experiences that many people do not want their beliefs and views challenged—and would prefer to believe an untruth. At that time, I was a celebrated "amber expert" (though I don't like that title—and my knowledge and interest were already much broader), and I wasted a lot of breath trying to convince people—particularly Africans or people who sold African beads—that I could scientifically demonstrate that their "amber" was plastic. I don't think I was ever successful, until around five years ago, when Abdul Touray did me the courtesy of listening to my opinions, and of changing his perspective.

I attempt to make it very clear when I am guessing from the gut, making an educated assumption, or am convinced (as from knowledge and evidence) about what I am saying. I am also the first to admit that I don't know everything—and that no one knows everything. And I also admit when I have made a mistake—and I appropriately revise my thinking when it's warranted. And, more than anything else—now—I do not try to change the minds of people whose minds are made-up.

I'm here for the people who want to know.

I hope this doesn't sound preachy! I am merely a man with a sincere avocation to help people. As I look back, all of this has come from the first time I had to tell a client that I had sold her a (beautiful) "amber" necklace, made with old plastic beads from W. Africa. I was embarrassed to have placed myself in that position; and I thought it were best if I helped others to not make the same sorts of mistakes. And so it goes.

Have a great day!

Jamey

At shows Colin (11) is really priceless. I see plastic marked/priced as amber. I ask him, what is it? He announces loudly "It's PLASTIC!" ...then we dash off.

I will certainly try to be at the amber presentation in Oakland CA July 19! Thanks Jamey!

Dear Jamey

thank you for the explaining I have to contact them and to ring some big bells !!! over there .
all the best

yankee