I traded for one very similar a few years ago. Mine has been recut in 3 faces. The unpolished portions ae very matte, almost grainy.

I don't think I ever posted it here. Maybe I'll remember when I get home in November.

-Russ

I understand that if you look at these beads upside down with your left eye squinted during a full moon, that there is a vision of Paul Mc Cartney to be seen......
but seriously folks. I think what you are seeing is the result of a little de vit showing reflection with the black light. the vaseline beads that glow are a uranium glass, which flouresces nicely. The red in the bead shown is an opaque made with cadmiium/selenium in a flourine opal base. the flourine opal will devitrify if pulled a bit cold giving it a pearlescent look. I"d bet the black light picks up this and throws it back as a reflection..... jeez the lengths we go to inspect and analyze. Maybe xray will be next. Actually I want to do some specrtographic analysis on some in the future.
As to who ground them John Picard had a bunch of these ground in Italy from some old cane he bought twenty years back. He since had the cane reproduced in Italy which has clouded the issue some-and someone, John I think, had some of the same color stack made in India a few years back. . The India ones are pretty well made for India chevrons, but still very identifyable as
India made by the glass quality and production values. I'm sure Jamey could weigh in on this one.

hello Art
the old red canes that we bought twenty years ago are the only red canes we ever had, I don't know why you said we had them reproduced.
Luigi made some red canes on his own, similar to the old ones, but that was his own thing and had nothing to do with us.

As for India, we have never purchased or had even one single bead made in India.

Please, Art, get your facts straight and don't spread false information.

JP

Sorry John,
You are one of the stars in the firmament of trade bead knowledge and I would never knowingly spread misinformation about you or your beads.
I know that you had turned up a stash of the old red cane and had it made into beads. I was to understand from Bob Stewart and others in Indiana that in later years when those beads ran out that you had some canes made in Italy of the variety. It is well accepted in the rendezvous community and other bead collecting circles that that pattern was reproduced in the late eighties or early nineties. This is the first time that I have heard that Luigi was the source of this version. These beads have been pretty commonly available from several dealers in the US and also were to be found in shops Italy. Have you ever handled any of the Luigi versions? I know you sell others he has made. Your catalog shows some of them now.
It is my recollection from a conversation with you many years back that there was around 1500 or so beads worth of cane in that pile. Does my memory serve me well? I see from your current online catalog that you still have examples for sale. How many of these beads from that original old cane are still available?
As to the India versions. I recall Bob telling me that he got the examples he had from you.These were the same color stack as the famous reds you have had. He may have gotten mixed up as he also had some of the early chinese chevrons at the time.
That red pattern is very popular out in collector circles in no small part to your having turned up that pile of old cane and having it ground into beads. It is good to get mistakes in source information cleared up in the ranks and I thank you for clearing this up for me. I'm sorry if my misunderstanding caused you any distress.
Art
ps I am posting here a picture from your catalog of the beads I mentioned, also some of the Chinese ones you show.

Art,
We only bought one batch of red cane in Venice, about 20 years ago as you say. We did not buy any other batches, but this batch was not ground at the same time, nor was it even ground by the same person. They were ground by Tiozzo (now deceased) and Pagnin, both in Murano. The smallest sizes from 8 - 10mm only were ground by the Ercole Moretti company. I can't remember how many beads I may have told you I had, and anyway that is irrelevant. The point is that we did not buy any other red cane in Venice, and especially NEVER in India where we have no contacts. We do carry some other beads from India (not chevrons), but these were strictly found in the markets of Lome, Togo and were not commissioned by us - millefiories and feathers, etc.

We did purchase a few samples of Luigi's red chevrons, already made, for the museum. As for Bob Stewart, who has not purchased anything from us in at least 10 years, he is completely mistaken or confused if he thinks he got red chevrons from India from us. That is just impossible.

The red chevrons on our website or in our catalog are all from this same ORIGINAL batch of red cane, such as pictured in your image. As for the Chinese chevrons in your photo from our website, this is a completely different story that you did not bring up in your first post. For the record, these were imported by Sumareh and we bought them from him in Tucson, 2006 (a much newer version than Indian chevrons). Anyway, on our website this picture of Chinese chevrons is identified as Chinese and new. You forgot to mention that.

Art, we have supported you and your work over many years,and we don't understand why you want to persist in these rumors about selling Indian red chevrons and other red ones from different batches from Venice.

JP and RP

Dear John,

I’m sorry you think I’m trying to persist with rumors. I thought I made it clear that it was my intention to clear up misconceptions in the field. I’ve been out in the field with my chevrons for twenty years now and have on many occasions been approached with tales and rumors of beads and their origin. One of the beads I’m confronted with the most is your red bead. On not a few occasions I’ve had people come up and show me one of them and tell me how happy they are to have one of my beads. I then have to explain to them that they are of Italian origin and while they are beautiful beads, they are not mine. It’s not always what they want to hear. I’m often asked to provide information for people about their chevrons, and often I’m told by them where they got them and what they were told when they bought them. These stories are often in conflict. I am in a precarious position because I make the beads I make and because of the support you have given me. I’m expected to know about these things and to be up front and truthful. I have a serious interest in the chevron bead both from a contemporary production standpoint and from an historical standpoint. I have always tried to tell people what I believed was truthful about their beads. I was told years ago by a person of integrity, who I believed (Bob) that he got some beads from you. Today I saw Bob for the first time in four years and asked him about that conversation. He is getting on in years and allowed as how he may well have gotten mixed up on his source of the India beads. I certainly have no reason not to believe you. Bob has always been straight with me and so I took what he said then as the truth. Bob did buy red chevrons from you years back, of that he is sure and they sure looked like the real deal to me. I have one of his red India beads at home in my collection and will post an image of it when I return home. Perhaps someone on the forum will have better knowledge of its original source
So there is the source of my misconception on that point.
I believe that this forum is a place for collectors and historians alike to share their thoughts and to establish what is truthful through communication of knowledge. This bit about the red chevrons is a perfect example of this forum doing its job
My only point in any of this is to clear up the record about the famous red chevrons, which is very cloudy out in the collector field. I do think that it is relevant how many of these beads there are as many people are in possession of them with the impression that they are a rare bead and have invested in them thinking this. This is what I get told. Since they are a twentieth century bead and since your involvement with them is so recent and the knowledge of their origin is current as well as your knowledge of their scarcity or abundance, I feel it is important both for the collector market as well as the historical record to have this knowledge known openly. When I’m asked by a person out in the field if their red chevron is one of a dozen or one of a hundred or one of a thousand or one of several thousands, what am I to say? Shucks I don’t know? They say to me, “you know john, what’s the real story? “ Do you see my point? I think that there is enough lost knowledge about ancient beads to go around and any we can preserve from the present record is our duty to do, for future historians at the least. Otherwise why do we bother to try to figure out all this stuff about old beads anyway?
You are an important person in the world of beads John. You are a source, a resource, a collector and an historian. Not many people wear that many hats in this field. People look up to you for good reason and I am among them. I’m not trying to spread any rumors or build fires. I just would like to see things be understood as clearly and completely in the field of bead collecting as possible. Both for the good of the collectors and for the long term integrity of the knowledge base about these treasures we all love so much.
If you or Ruth feel I have hurt or offended you with this, I apologize.
I will continue to think that accurate knowledge about our bead passion is our greatest resource and that we all owe it to each other, to the collector field and to the beads themselves to gain and preserve this knowledge as accurately as possible and to the best of our ability.
Thanks for hearing me out
Art

Margot,

I have a huge (in my opinion) collection of chevrons, some very valuable. But in the whole collection I did not have a single red one. Well, that has been rectified and they are on the way.

The elbow chevrons are by Luigi Catalon. Aren't these wild?

The second is an "old" Venetian bead, 10mm by 13mm.

Thanks for the inspiration.

Nancy

Thanks Margot for this topic, I do not have a black light anymore (sold it in the early 80's) but here are my various red chevrons in camera flash lighting.

Thanks to Art and John for getting the word out about the reds that are Picard and those that are not... I too have heard variations of the story and it starts to get clouded when too many tales are told from person to person, so yes thanks so much for the clarification, this is how we learn. None of us wants to knowingly pass on incorrect information and we appreciate hearing the facts.

The bigger reds in my photo were purchased many years ago from a rendezvous seller at Fort Buenaventura who said he bought them from John Picard. This was before I knew who John Picard was so it was nice to put the name with a face in later years. We also got some nice 6 layer greens and some clover-floral center greens from the same seller, who charged us between $100-$150 a bead back then and we were happy to get them, not something you see every day!

The medium size reds on the left came from Wishbone in Arizona. They were not expensive, I figured they were contemporary. The elbows of course are from Luigi. And the strand of small reds (at right) was from an African trader at the Denver bead show about four years ago. I split the strand with my dad, shown is my half. I figure they are early to mid 1900's?

Anyway, thanks to all so much for bringing up this topic and all of the time you've all taken to help us be more educated on this topic. And Margot, what are you still doing with that black light, girl? Are you saying you use it just for viewing beads or do you still have some of those funky florescent posters?

Joy B.

HI JOY, SORRY TO DISSAPOINT YOU , BUT FROM WHAT I SEE YOUR FIVE LARGE ONES ARE AT LEAST THREE CANES. PROBABLY FOUR. BEFORE I GO THROUGH THEM LET ME GIVE YOU SOME PARAMETERS.
THERE ARE QUITE A FEW ASPECTS OF A CHEVRON TO LOOK AT WHEN COMPARING IT TO ANOTHER. THE OBVIOUS ONES ARE COLORS , NUMBER OF LAYERS, AND COLOR ORDER. AFTER THAT THE MORE SUBTLE ONES TO ADDRESS ARE
1- LAYER THICKNESS
2- REGISTRATION OF THE LAYERS (DO THE POINTS LINE UP OR NOT? AND ON WHICH LAYERS? )
3- MOLDING. HOW WELL ARE THE POINTS FORMED AND THIS MUST BE ADDRESSED FOR EACH LAYER.
4- TWIST ARE SOME LAYERS TWISTED? IS THE WHOLE CANE TWISTED? WHICH DIRECTION?
5-HOW WELL DO THE POINTS NEST UP INTO THE NEXT LAYERS? SOME DO WELL SOME JUST A LITTLE SOME ARE SO FAR NESTED UP AS TO BE EXTREME. THESE MAKE FOR THE BEST DEEP GRINDS.
6- HOLE SHAPE AND CONCENTRICITY TO THE BEAD AXIS
7- EVEN-NESS OF GATHER. IS ONE SIDE OF THE BEAD THICKER IN A COLOR LAYER THAN ANOTHER?
8- THERE ARE MORE SUBTLE THINGS TO LOOK FOR. COLOR TONE, COLOR SHADE, HIGHLIGHTS,

IN CARLS PICTURE THE INNER RED LAYER APPEARS TO HAVE A DARKER OUTER BOUNDARY. THIS IS NOT UNCOMMON WITH RED GLASSES AS THEY STRIKE (A GLASS TERM FOR CHANGING COLOR ) WHEN COOLED AND REHEATED.

ANY GIVEN CANE WILL PRODUCE BEADS WITH MOST OF THESE CONSIDERATIONS IN AGREEMENT. THERE WILL BE SLIGHT VARIATIONS IN ONE OR ANOTHER ITEM, BUT OVERALL
THERE WILL BE 85-95 PERCENT AGREEMENT OF THE CRITERIA FROM BEAD TO BEAD IN A GIVEN CANE.
NOW TO YOUR BEADS. THE CENTER LARGE ONE NUMBER ONE IS DEFINITELY ALL BY ITSELF
THE WHITE LAYER IS THICKER THAN TWO THREE OR FIVE AND THE BLACK LAYER IS THINNER THAN FOUR. TWO AND FOUR ARE A POSSIBLE MATCH THE CORE RED IS TWISTED IN 4 AND NOT TWO, BUT THE OTHER FACTORS ARE IN PRETTY GOOD AGREEMENT. TWO AND FOUR DEFINITELY DO NOT MATCH FIVE AS THE BLACK LAYER IS THINNER IN FIVE AND THE NESTING IN 5 IS WAY MORE TIGHT THAN ANY OF THE OTHERS. THREE HAS POINTS THICH DON'T REGISTER WITH THE ABOVE LAYERS FROM INNER RED TO THE WHITE. FIVE SHOWS THIS ON SOME POINTS, BUT THE NESTING IS A DEFINITE MIS MATCH WITH 3. SO I'D SAY THAT YOU HAVE AT LEAST FOUR CANES REPRESENTED HERE. THE SMALL ONES LOOK QUITE SIMILAR TO EACH OTHER AT THE RESOLUTION I HAVE ON THE PICTURE.
OF THE FOUR SMALLER ONES. THERE APPEAR TO BE TWO PAIRS LOOKING AT THE NESTING AND LAYER THICKNESS. THE SIXES MATCH AND THE SEVENS MATCH. THESE DON'T APPEAR TO MATCH ANY OF THE ONES IN THE LARGE GROUP.
LOOKING AT CARLS BEADS ALONG SIDE OF YOURS I'D NOT PICK A MATCH BETWEEN ANY IN EITHER PICTURE. SO FROM WHERE I SIT THERE ARE IN THIS SMALL GROUP OF BEADS YOURS AND CARLS AT LEAST ELEVEN CANES REPRESENTED. THIS IS A PRETTY SMALL SAMPLE OF THE FAMOUS REDS FROM ALL THOSE THAT ABOUND. THIS AGAIN TELLS ME THAT THERE ARE QUITE A FEW OF THEM OUT THERE.......
I HOPE THAT THIS WILL GIVE YOU ALL SOME TOOLS WITH WHICH TO EVALUATE YOUR BEADS BETTER.
ART

SORRY I FORGOT TO ADD THE PICTURE

hi Joy
I can recognize the middle strand and the small ones as cut from the original canes
it is dificult to see from the picture about the ones below the elbow shape, they maybe from another source
here is a picture of the two samples from luigi(left side) that are in the museum and the ones from the original canes(right side) whith are on our website now. The ones from Luigi have a duller rosy red hue and the points are less defined
JP

Thank you JP, it's good to know for sure that my largest and smallest reds are yours... the medium sized ones came from Wishbone in AZ and are not as bright a red.

I was reading Alan Curtis' post where she shows his grinds from your cane and am wondering if you still have more of this original red cane for sale?

Joy B.

We still do have red canes from that time.
here are pictures of other Venetian red chevrons
the ones on top were made by SUV in Venice in the early 1990s. He had at the time only four different types including these two red ones, they were made in limited quantity, some of them in real jumbo size.
the one in the bottom, I don't know the name of the maker but they were distributed by the Mazucco Co. also in Venice, around 1995. Those were made in larger quantity in quite a few different color combinations and for most of them with a star pattern of 16 points
For some reason as nice as they can be, none of them have that vivid brillant red of the original canes. That brilliant red color is also the main thing that differentiates the original canes from Luigi red chevrons.
JP

That's an interesting expampe of Luigi's. From the bead worm holes it looks like it was from near the blow pipe end of the cane. Beads from this end of the cane often will have the worm holes and also often have less defined points in the molding. I notice that both beads show mis-registration of the inner red to the white above the black. This is the first one I've seen which is directly and accurately attributed to Luigi. I'd like to see more of them. Anyone have some???
Also the end view of a chevron is the best view for evaluating the layers, registration, thickness, twist etc,
Art

Art here is an end view of my five Picard reds. I have no Luigi reds, sorry.

Joy B.

Nice picture Joy. I see four different canes there for sure.
Art

HI JOY, COULD YOU PLEASE SEND AN END VIEW OF YOUR SMALLER REDS - THE FOUR ON THE LOWER LEFT? IT LOOKS LIKE THEY HAVE RED CORE LAYERS AND I'D LIKE TO SEE THE STRUCTURE OF THE CANE BETTER, THANKS, ART

Art here is end view of these four beads that I bought at Wishbone in Arizona while on the way back from Glendale about five years ago or so. I don't know their origin, and as you pointed out, they look like they are from different canes. They are a bit lighter in color than the Picard reds and they were not expensive. Now that I look at them in the context of this discussion, I wonder if these were meant to be knockoffs/imitations of the original "famous reds?" Color layering is similar but as you saw, two have red inside.

Joy B.

These are graduated with the largest bead being 25mm x 37mm. I have since replaced the center bead with a BIG six layer red bead with the 3rd layer being yellow which I found in Amsterdam last year. It is 25mm x 55mm. All of these with the exception of the new center bead came from the Picards a while back.

NIce pile Carl. I identify 8 distinct canes in your strand here. This by the internal structure of the beads.
1 -bead number 1 has the best structure of the lot. all the layers are well molded and have good registration, that is the points all nest well and line up.
2-bead number 2 has a much thinner white layer and the red layer in the center is twisted to the left and doesn't line up with the points of later layers
3- bead number 3 has a thicker layer of white than 2 but the black(blue) layer is poorly molded if at all. the molding shown could be from the layer below.
4- number 4 is a twisted cane and it is twisted to the left all the layers line up pretty well and are pretty well molded
5- number 5 has the inner red layer perfectly our of synch with the black layer above it. the black molding has flattened the points of the red below. the black is well molded however.
6 number six has the black and inner red layers out of registration, but the black is poorly molded. it is also slightly twisted.
7- the number 7 beads all have good registration of the inner layers with a poorly molded black layer similar to number 3 these could be from the same cane
8-number 8is twisted to the right and has a thick balck layer which is well molded yet out of synch with the red beneath.
All in all I'd say that there are at least seven perhaps eight distinct canes represented here. As they are all similar size this represents a large body of work . The Italians make large canes and are good at making the canes uniform. To my mind when i see canes made with layers out of synch with each other it speaks of haste. I've made a few with this problem and being in a hurry for some reason and not paying attention is always the cause. Sometimes the layers being out can create a nice pattern, though it's not as controllable as keeping them lined up nicely. When I see this much variety in canes of one pattern I have to ask myself , really,how many of these canes WERE made? This wasn't a pattern done for centuries like the blue white reds. And it wasn't widely distributed when it WAS made or they would show up more in the trade bead market. The mystery continues.........

Thanks Art, from what you are saying I can see that my five big reds are all from the same cane, all brothers. I had never really paid attention to that before.

Joy B.

Hi friends,

These are some red specimens and a few other goodies that I have amassed over the years. All the red, except the largest and a few large egg shape ones, I worked up from cane acquired from the Picard's. The egg shape bead just to the left of the big one (42 x 31) is the first of any chevron I ever collected (Tucson, 1992). After the Picard's book came out later, I was hooked on chevrons. I owe a lot of thanks to my buddy Tim (mountain man name Weasel), the Picards and Art Seymour for the wonderful experience I've had in the world of the chevron bead.

Enjoy,
Alan

Hi Alan, good to see you! I love your work, you always do such a good job. Speaking of reds, here is a photo of those reds from Art I was telling you about at Fort Bridger when we were looking through the Picard book on Chevrons.

Joy

Hello, Here is a red bead I got from John Picard by mail sometime in the late eighties or early nineties. sorry the picture is so bad, I do need a new camera.
So what is a Beadworm anyway? Are they in the United States or only in Africa? Should I be worried about my collection???
Tule

Hello Tule,
The beadworm thing came about at a mountain man rendezvous when some wag observed the extra holes in a chevron running parallel to the axis of the bead. Beadworms! he declared. It caught on and now not a few of the mountain men bead collectors refer to those holes as beadworm holes. These holes do show up in chevrons of antiquity found in Africa so maybe they are there too. I've found them in some of my beads. I'd keep my collection under lock and key in a humidity controlled environment away from cats and lizards just in case.
Art

So from what I am reading, perhaps we can begin to summarize the characteristics of the "famous Picard Red Chevrons" a bit more... here is what I compiled from this post, and please chime in with corrections/additions so that a factual description can be passed on in the future... and whether or not someone has a genuine "Picard Red" (or another maker's bead) is not so subjective and can be answered factually:

A. Five Layer Venetian Chevrons (or star cane) - from inner to outer layer: Black, Red, Black, White, Red.

B. Twelve relatively well-defined points

C. Unique deep red color unlike known subsequent production by other sources

D. Multiple cane variations represented in the original production, but all having the 5 layer color pattern and the 12 point star molding. Thickness of layers, registration, twisting, may vary slightly from cane to cane.

E. Cane purchased from __________in Venice by the Picards approx. 20 years ago (mid 1980's?)

F. Cane originally made (pulled) in approx. 19____ by ________.

G. Some original cane still available. Beads from the original cane available from Picardbeads.com.

H. Grinding of beads since Picard purchase was done by Tiozzo (now deceased) and Pagnin, both in Murano. The smallest sizes from 8 - 10mm were ground by the Ercole Moretti company. Recent grinding/bead production from this cane has been done by Alan Curtis (possibly others?).

I. Other colors of Venetian chevron/star cane other that Red also were purchased by the Picards and new beads have been made from that "old cane" also, but this summary is meant to be about the 5 layer 12 point red chevrons.

J. No second production of the red cane was commissioned by the Picards, either from Venice or other bead industries.

Is this a start? Corrections? Additions?

Joy B.

Very nice summary here, Joy. I notice on my Picard cane as well as my red chevron bead that the innermost layer, #1, is deepest cobalt blue, not black. But I cannot determine, at least at this moment, whether layer 3 is cobalt or black.

Yes Joyce, I've observed that the black appearing layers are blue.I''ve always referred to them as black because thats the way they appear to the eye. If you flake one of the beads it shows up well. I didn't know if anyone else had seen that. The later ones I've seen also are built this way. the dark blue appears black in the core layer and the third layer because there is no white under it to reflect the light back out. In my beads when I use a dark color like blue or dark green or brown as a core layer it always appears black. As I almost always use white between each of the color layers in my beads the later layers show up with their true color.
Art

The red chevrons that were not newly cut by Picard or another bead maker but, were made in Italy in the early 1920's!!!!! They still exist, you know!!!

Hi Christine, I wonder what the difference in appearance would be for those original 1920's or so red chevrons. How to tell them apart from the "new grinds" if it is the same cane? Does anyone have a photo of the original old Italian red chevrons? Would be great to see some examples! Thanks for bringing that up!

Joy B.

I own one that I bought in Alaska many years ago. I have posted it more than once. My computer is on the blink so, I can't post it at this time. Be assured it is much more expensive than the ones newly cut from old cane. It is matte finished! ( not shiney)There has been such a flood of new ones that few people can tell the difference because they have never seen one from the early 1900's!

Because Inquiring minds want to know.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140028079199&ssPageName=ADME:B:EF:US:11

This quote from the auction.......
"These beads was made in very limited quanities from old cane by the master himself(Luigi Cattelan) imported directely from Luigi's store in Murano all are in perfect condition"......And if that's not enough, where "another man's junk is another man's treasure", Luigi, while forging through old warehouses and factories on the island, has come upon many kilos of old and rare chevron cane, which he then makes into beads.

Now where does this fit into the mystery? Did Luigi make these beads from scratch? Or did he make them from old cane? How many kilos of this rare cane might he have turned up? If there are many kilos of a cane can it qualify as rare? I would still like to know for the sake of my own curiosity and that of the many collectors who are told their beads are rare, just how many kilos of this cane there might have been and yet might be.
Art

Hi Art,
I have found Liugi very helpful in recent weeks when I have emailed him re. the origin of certain chevrons. The red "elbows" are his production entirely, I learned a few years ago. Check out his site (link below) where you will find old Conterie red chevrons, made from 50s cane (R10) as well as his "elbows" (R11), his production. The new elbows are together with older beads in the "old chevron" area, which is confusing for some, most likely.

Thanks Joyce, I see what you mean, if the "new" elbows are mixed in with the "old chevrons" section it could be confusing, and then which ones really are "old cane" and which ones are not becomes fuzzy. If the person buying from Luigi is confused, that confusion gets passed on to HIS buyer, and so on, this is how misconceptions are spread. Maybe Luigi will clarify. The "old" beads seem so low in price for chevrons that old? I suppose shipping costs would add to the price too.

Adding up the pricing from the website, the red chevron necklace that Art referenced from ebay would be about $135 from Luigi, without shipping. Not bad. I know a lot of us bought those red elbows at shows over the past few years for not much money, and the green elbows too. I'll have to look for those little red round ones. Those are adorable and what a great buy if they really are antique.

Joy B.