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Anyone seen this before?
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Posted by: tofsla Post Reply
02/27/2013, 05:42:33

is it real or fake? I never seen this type of beads - not in JJ Market BKK not in Scots market in Rangoon... never seen it as fakes, never seen it as real... Anyone has an ideas? e-bay 200899103504


Thanks much



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Without any disrespect, item location: Tailand……
Re: Anyone seen this before? -- tofsla Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: freedomgood Post Reply
02/27/2013, 05:54:19

Compare to this bead listing on Japan yahoo auction
http://page17.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/v237227553

Is this authentic one? I would not buy it now or in the future.



Modified by freedomgood at Wed, Feb 27, 2013, 05:57:26

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Bird Beads from Indonesia
Re: Anyone seen this before? -- tofsla Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Joyce Post Reply
02/27/2013, 06:24:40

Sometimes hard to tell genuine from repro - the one freedomgood shows looks good.


Related link: http://www.ornamentmagazine.com/collectible-beads-book/collectible-beads-book_10.php

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Thanks much!!!
Re: Bird Beads from Indonesia -- Joyce Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: tofsla Post Reply
02/27/2013, 06:35:55

thats explain why i never seen it. I dont collect indo beads or go to indo often (even its short fly away). Appreciate help! Best Regards



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Big thanks to all people on this forum! Its been great help for me!
Re: Anyone seen this before? -- tofsla Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: tofsla Post Reply
02/27/2013, 15:13:46



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I don't think the authentic bird beads are made in the way Ornament describes
Re: Anyone seen this before? -- tofsla Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: will Post Reply
02/28/2013, 15:32:53

Hi everyone,

First of all, I agree of course that the bead tofsia shows is not an authentic Jatim bird/sunburst bead. It's hardly a fake, really just a modern version of a traditional pattern.

And I'm a little doubtful too about the bead on the Japanese website for reasons that I'll get to in a moment.

What really surprises me is the description from Ornament magazine that seems to me to be quite simply wrong. I'm not aware of anyone who has studied these beads closely coming to the conclusion that they were made by carving out a pattern and then filling it in with a white substance. If you look at the attached picture that just doesn't make sense.

James Lankton has described the patterns as being "trailed white glass," and in Magical Ancient Beads Jamey Allen says that these are: "blue or black spheroidal drawn beads, with trailed decoration in white glass." However, since writing that, he has come back to the topic and now, as I understand it, believes that the base blue/black beads were allowed to cool and the pattern was then applied in white enamel before being fired in a kiln to fix it to the surface.

I'm not entirely sure that I can see how this extremely unusual process led to the finished beads that have come down to us - in particular, I don't see how an enamelled pattern would become embedded in the surface of the glass to a depth of at least a millimeter - but Jamey knows much more than I do about bead technology, and for now I'll take his word for it.

What fascinates me is that this is just one more example of the technological inventiveness, the willingness to find new solutions to get the desired effects, that we find among the beadmakers who were at work in early Southeast Asia between 500 BCE and 600CE.

Now back to the "Japanese" bead. The reason I'm a bit doubtful about it is that the edges of the pattern look to be just too clearly incised into the surface of the glass. Sometimes this does happen, but in most of the beads which I've seen that I believe to be authentic there is more blurring of the edges than appears here. So it occurs to me that this particular bead may have been made in the manner that Ornament describes, not in ancient times but quite recently, with the design carved into the surface of a genuinely ancient monochrome bead and filled with a whitish paste. This was in fact a common practice among the creators of fake Jatims twenty or so years ago; they were very good at it, as genuinely inventive in their own way as their forebears.

Best,

Will

Jatim3:4.6m.jpg (114.9 KB)  


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Re: I don't think the authentic bird beads are made in the way Ornament describes
Re: I don't think the authentic bird beads are made in the way Ornament describes -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: freedomgood Post Reply
02/28/2013, 19:08:51

If I have a chance, I would buy that bird bead Will attaching.
Just like few years ago, a bird bead listing on mosquitobays web store
but that single beauty is not available for a long time.
Wayne



Modified by freedomgood at Thu, Feb 28, 2013, 19:09:56

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Hi Will~ It is always such a pleasure, and learning experience to read your posts.
Re: I don't think the authentic bird beads are made in the way Ornament describes -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: jake@nomaddesign Post Reply
03/03/2013, 16:14:51

I am interested in your statements about the Indonesian bird beads. I have had some exposure to these ancient artifacts, albeit in the early 90's. I do understand that there are many reproductions, and many methods of reproduction. The (authentic?) beads I handled were created precisely with the method described in the Ornament article.



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Hi Jake...
Re: Hi Will~ It is always such a pleasure, and learning experience to read your posts. -- jake@nomaddesign Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: will Post Reply
03/04/2013, 14:50:35

...good to see you here. Thanks for the kind words; these posts are one of my ways of figuring things out for myself.

I'm fairly certain that all (or almost all) the beads that really have been carved are fakes made in the early 1990s or later. At the same time, there's a large number of beads that look as though the pattern has been incised into them, when what has actually happened is that the enamel impressed into the glass has been loosened around the edges or has fallen out altogether. I doubt if any beads were carved in antiquity, but if some were (rather like the occasional Samon Valley bead where the patterned carnelian has been carved and filled rather than etched) I'm sure it was a technique that would have died out quickly because it was uneconomical and cumbersome.

How does one tell the difference between the genuine bead and the modern fake that uses an ancient bead as its base? I guess the only foolproof way would be through a chemical analysis of the material that the pattern is made from (glass or enamel or, in the case of the fakes, a hardened paste of some sort). Absent that, I exclude any bead where the pattern does not look as though it has been applied in liquid form, where the design appears rigid rather than fluid. I may miss a few genuine beads by doing that, but I save myself from going through a long process of yes, no, maybe.

Here's a pic of a guardian figure outside a village near Malang in East Java. It dates from the thirteenth century, a good seven hundred years after the bird beads were made. Notice the skull ear ornaments and the snake that winds around his body and sticks its head out from under his armpit.

All the best,

WILL

guardian:singosaritemple:C13.jpg (89.1 KB)  


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Will, as always thank you so much for you post!
Re: Hi Jake... -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: jake@nomaddesign Post Reply
03/08/2013, 17:05:59



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Re: Anyone seen this before?
Re: Anyone seen this before? -- tofsla Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Shinji Post Reply
02/28/2013, 22:26:02

I think there were two ways to make that kind of bird beads in those days.

1)trailed decolation type (without carving)

size:normally samll
color: black
bird and sunburst motif easily go out under ground.

2)inlay type (with carving)

size:from small to large
color: black and transparent dark blue
(transparent dark blue bodies are rare)

Following pictures are type 1) (without carving)
All beads are authentic, no doubt at all.
One strand became deeply iridescent.
Another is a little bit iridescent.

I picked up one bead with beautifull iridescence.
The motif has already gone.
You can see the rest of motif.


type 2) is comming later

burung1.jpg (158.0 KB)  DSC_00032013-03-01_14-54-11.JPG (144.0 KB)  


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type 2)
Re: Re: Anyone seen this before? -- Shinji Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Shinji Post Reply
02/28/2013, 23:25:00

The first picture is type 1) in better condition.

The second picture is type 2) (inlay type).
Left 2 beads are transparent dark blue.
Right 2 beads are black.
And I think right 2 beads belong to the same group as Will's one.

The most left one is my current best stock.

DSC_00012013-03-01_16-13-571.JPG (91.7 KB)  DSC_00022013-03-01_16-15-27.JPG (53.6 KB)  


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Balinese duck
Re: Re: Anyone seen this before? -- Shinji Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: will Post Reply
03/01/2013, 06:19:52

Hi Shinji,

There are some very nice beads in your second post; thanks for showing them. Could you please describe where and how they were found? It would be very useful.

However, I don't think any of the beads that you call 'type 2" look as though they were made by carving the pattern in the glass. (You say that the one I showed was made by that method, but I can assure you it definitely wasn't.) On the contrary, the nature of the free-flowing outlines of the bird and sun designs and the substantial variations between the patterns on different beads makes it much more probable that they are the result of a liquid application of glass (or enamel, as Jamey Allen suggests) rather than a carving technique.

When the white glass or enamel falls out, this is not evidence of the design having been carved and inlaid. It is simply a result of the trailed glass or painted enamel not having fused sufficiently into the body of the bead.

If you think about it for a moment it doesn't make any sense that a carving and a trailing technique would exist side by side in this same culture. The trailing or enamelling technique is much more efficient, and would have developed naturally in a culture with long glass-beadmaking experience. There is no evidence of lapidary inlay techniques in carved stone beads (such as existed in the Samon Valley in Burma, for instance) having developed in East Java prior to this time.

The picture is of a so-called Balinese duck, which I think is being represented in these bird designs.

Cheers,

Will



Modified by will at Fri, Mar 01, 2013, 06:21:02

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Re: Balinese duck - photo
Re: Balinese duck -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: will Post Reply
03/01/2013, 06:22:52

1_bali_duck.jpg (81.4 KB)  


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bronze bird
Re: Balinese duck -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Shinji Post Reply
03/01/2013, 23:47:35

Hi Will

Please use easier words and easier expressins as possible when you speak to me.
I need dictionally haha.
I'm afriad that I don't understand what you mean exactlly.

But I think I understand what you mean.
It' very interesting idea.
I cann't deny and it makes sence for me also.
I don't know they carved or not.
They just looked "carving" for me.
But I think your idea is easier to understand this kind of beads.

Because 2 right beads in 2nd picture are between type 1) ans type 2) in fact.
When I touch the beads I can feel motif a little bit, and I can see
shallow cavity also.

So it means there are some qualities(not method) on bird beads, right?

Can I say following"?.

type 1) - Low quality beads(beads in 1st picture) -
white motifs are rised on surface.
If you touch the bead ,you feel the motifs.
And after white motifs has gone out,surface is almost flat.
White motifs are not fused well into thier body.
type 1) exist much more than type 2) ans type 3)

type 2) - Midium quality beads(2 right beads in 2nd picture) -
white motifs are rised on surface a litte bit.
If you touch the bead ,you feel the motifs a little bit.
And after white motifs has gone out,you can see the same shape of shallow cavity(?) as motif.
White motifs are fused into thier body in shallow.

type 3)- high quality beads(2 leftt beads in 2nd picture) -

White motifs are not rised on surface.
If you touch the bead ,you don't feel the motifs (surface is smooth).
And after white motifs has gone out,you can see the same shape of cavity(?) as motif.
White motifs are fused into thier body completely.
It looks like carving and filled with white material as a result.
type 3) is difficult to find compared to type 1) and type 2).

How about this classification of thier quality ?
So your bead in picture belong to type 3) also.

And How about the white material?
Do you think white material on type 1) is deffernt from others?


Oh! Every beads were collected by myself in east Java.
Every year I go to Java for hunting antiques.

The picture is the bronze bird found in same area as bird beads(Manik Brung).
And People there belive the bronze bird belong to same era as bird beads.

SHINJI


DSC_00022013-03-02_16-05-43.JPG (86.5 KB)  


Modified by Shinji at Fri, Mar 01, 2013, 23:54:40

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Re: bronze birds and suns
Re: bronze bird -- Shinji Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: will Post Reply
03/02/2013, 15:47:59

Hi Shinji,

Actually, I think your three types relate not to a basic difference in the beadmaking technology but to the state of preservation of individual beads. Sometimes, the material used to form the pattern (glass or enamel) hasn't attached itself very effectively to the core of the bead, but when the process has been more successful it has become embedded in the glass; and sometimes subsequently it has been worn away by use or burial conditions.

In any case, all the beads you found are very interesting. I would have loved to see them. In what region of East Java did you find them and do you know anything about the conditions in which they were dug up? I was in Jember myself last year, but I think you're a much better hunter than I am!

The bronze duck-shaped pendant is a great find. I haven't seen anything like it from Indonesia. What size is it? Bronze bird shaped pendants and appliqués were common in Central and West Asia, but I haven't seen one in Southeast Asia. How big is it? Birds are common decorative patterns, as were sun designs, on bronze drums from the Dong Son culture in Vietnam several hundred years before the glass beads were made, (see the drum face pic), and some of these drums were actually exported to Java - which may explain why these patterns were later used on Jatim beads.

Best,

Will

DongSon10.jpg (144.1 KB)  


Modified by will at Sat, Mar 02, 2013, 16:13:45

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Re: Balinese duck
Re: Balinese duck -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Shinji Post Reply
03/02/2013, 20:42:42

Hi Will

It's fun for me to disscuss about this kind of topics.
Thank you for giving me the chance.

I think you are wrong in following piont.
"to the state of preservation of individual beads."

The defference of those type are not comming from the defference of preservation of individual beads.
It's clear and I'm sure.

I post same pictures again.
The beads in first picture and the beads in second picture are same kind of beads and both belong to type 1).
The defference of these beads are comming from the defference of the state of preservation of individual beads.
In this case you are right.

But type 1) and type 3) are different quality always.
Type 1) is roughlly designed in any case.
Type 3) is well designed in any case.
And you can find type 1) much more than type 3).
They are different beads for me.

It means type 1) is a kind of mass production
and type 3) is a kind of "taking a time" production in bird beads case.

I have seen and dealled with so many authentic bird beads and
every bird beads makes me to think so.
(Offcause I know about good fakes as well.Bassam knows.)

In almost case that kind of beads are supposed to be burial accessories.
I believe that type 3) were carefully made (by "carving" or "fusing"..I don't know) for people in higher status than people of type 1).


Blonz duck is famous in the area.
They are popular,so many fakes exist also.
As you know many Blonz are being found in the area and they are called
for "Dong Son" there. And Java people call blonz bird "Dong son" also.
But as you pointed "Dong Son" was several hundred years before the glass beads were made in Java.

So if blonz duck(and other blonz products) were made in same culture in same age as glass beads in Java, it means that so-called "Don son" blonz product in Java were made several hundred years after real "Don son" in vietnum.
Many dealler there point that many blonz product are being found with glass beads.
As far I have no idea about it.

How many times have you visited there?
2 times, 3 times were not enough for my case.
I'm not a good hunter, I just visited there many times( I don't remember how many times....maby around 20 times in this 10 years since I started this business...)
I think it takes a long time( or need big lucky ) to get enough samples in any case.

Oh!There is one more I have to add.
I have visited digging place but I didn't have a chance to see how they are digged up.
In the book "Manik Manik di Indonesia"
they refer to it.
There are some cases.
Sometimes they are being found in a terra cotta pot.
And some deallers there say same thing.

Best

Shinji


1_burung1.jpg (158.0 KB)  1_DSC_00012013-03-01_16-13-571.JPG (91.7 KB)  


Modified by Shinji at Sun, Mar 03, 2013, 03:10:19

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The size of bronze duck is around 5 cm.
Re: Balinese duck -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Shinji Post Reply
03/02/2013, 20:46:23



Modified by Admin at Sun, Mar 03, 2013, 05:56:56

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Re: Bronze pendants
Re: Balinese duck -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: will Post Reply
03/03/2013, 14:47:47

Thanks, Shinji, for the information about the duck pendants. I haven't seen any like them in Vietnam.

I've been several times to East Java but mainly to Trowulan, trying to figure out a chronology for the ceramic production there, never till last year to Jember. I didn't really go to buy beads (though I did end up buying a few from villagers I met who wanted to sell them), but mainly to find out more about where and in what conditions they were found. No real conclusions, since they seem to be quite widely dispersed, occasionally in dolmens like the one in the first photograph, sometimes in burial urns, but most frequently loose in banks and drainage ditches at the edges of fields and woodland.

Will

dolmen-nr-wringin.jpg (81.6 KB)  jember43.jpg (63.0 KB)  


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Wow!
Re: Re: Bronze pendants -- will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: jake@nomaddesign Post Reply
03/03/2013, 16:17:21



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