Post Message Search Overview RegisterLoginAdmin
Ancient?
Post Reply Edit View All Forum
Posted by: birdi Post Reply
07/25/2012, 21:37:04

I see these and similar beads online in various places. The skeptic in me stirs when I read claims about age. I think they are very interesting and attractive. However, are these type quartz disc beads truly ancient?

QuartzDiscsBCN2.jpg (28.9 KB)  QuartzDiscs1BCN.jpg (41.4 KB)  


Modified by birdi at Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 00:07:54

Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Depending on the size......
Re: Ancient? -- birdi Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Carl Dreibelbis Post Reply
07/26/2012, 16:32:42

Hi Birdi, these appear to be quartz beads and look very similar to excavated beads from Mali and these are typically dated to 1200-1500 AD so I do not consider them ancient.



Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Re: Depending on the size...... 18mm-30mm
Re: Depending on the size...... -- Carl Dreibelbis Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: birdi Post Reply
07/26/2012, 17:08:57

They seem mostly to be 18mm - 30mm, depending on seller.

So, old then? but not ancient.

Recent arrivals on the market? I don't remember seeing them last year... or perhaps I didn't notice.

Any ideas what sort of drill was used? I could not find as many views of the perforations as I would prefer.

I might try buying a few. Thanks for the feedback.



Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Not new to the market
Re: Re: Depending on the size...... 18mm-30mm -- birdi Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Carl Dreibelbis Post Reply
07/26/2012, 17:37:40

Hi Birdi, these have been floating around the market for at least 10 years as with the agate and carnelian and rock crystal beads from the same era.

If you look at the perforations they should not be drilled but pecked meaning they were chipped away on both sides until the hole appeared. Is this how they look?



Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
I think they are ancient
Re: Not new to the market -- Carl Dreibelbis Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: judy Post Reply
07/26/2012, 19:27:36

James Lankton shows beads that date to 5,000 BC that have been drilled in his book 'A Bead Timeline'. It is very difficult to determine the age of beads that have been excavated. Understandably the people who find them keep the location secret. Even beads that have been found in legal digs cannot be tested because they would explode. The age is determined by the strata in which they were found and by the age of artifacts that could be tested that were found in the same strata. Prehistoric remains have been found in the Mali and Niger deserts that date back millions of years ie. dinosaur remains. National Geographic published an article about a discovery of two ancient civilizations. A person looking for dinosaur skeletons found a human skeleton that had been exposed by the winds and alerted authorities. One civilization was found to date to 4,000 BC and I believe the other to 2,000 BC. I believe that this was posted on the forum at that time. Shell beads have been found in North Africa, Morocco, by archeologists that were dated to more than 80,000 years BC and in South Africa that dated to 60,000 BC. The perforations on those beads were picked. My Malian mentor told me that there is an area in the desert where hundreds of beads are exposed each year during the rainy season. A report was published by archeologist Alok Kulongo regarding a dig that he conducted in India. He found clay beads, agate/carnelian beads and amazonite beads that are identical to the beads found in Mali. They date to 4,000 BC. His opinion was that trade between India and North and North West Africa was going on at this time. I have a copy of the report and will be very happy to email it to anyone who is interested. It has pictures. Why all the beads found in Mali are typically dated to the Islamic era is a mystery to me. It is more than likely that stone beads were made in Africa and in ancient times. Stone artifacts were made there and there is no doubt in my mind that those are ancient. In answer to Beadiste's question about new ancient beads. Yes, the Tuareg have a production facility in Niger (probably more than one) and are turning out new ancient beads. I have also seen reworked ancient stone beads. When I buy ancient stone beads from Mali and Niger I remove about 1/3 of the beads from the strand because they are newly made. The current political situation is making it impossible for anyone to venture into Mali for beads and artifacts. The business has come to a stand still. The prices are going to rise dramatically in fact they already have. My weakness is stone beads and artifacts I love them. Unfortunately I only have a very small collection because I am a seller. To indulge my passion would be self negating. I could ramble on but I need to get back to work..........

neolithic_63_bcn.jpg (78.8 KB)  


Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Many of the beads found in the digs are Carnelian from the Indus Valley Era
Re: I think they are ancient -- judy Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Carl Dreibelbis Post Reply
07/26/2012, 19:52:16

Hi Judy,

As I am sure you know some of the other beads found in the same digs have been carbon dated to the aforementioned time frame. Most of the old carnelian beads are from India. Several years ago the tiny clay "tomb" beads were dated to 1200-1500. With that said, you state a good point but I have always associated these stone beads with the Sub-Saharan Trade Routes.

Carl



Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
I agree
Re: Many of the beads found in the digs are Carnelian from the Indus Valley Era -- Carl Dreibelbis Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: judy Post Reply
07/26/2012, 21:12:08

The majority of the stone beads found in Africa originated in India. India has been the main production center of stone beads for millenia. From there they were transported across Asia into the Middles East and North Africa and on down into sub saharan regions. They have always been traded and have always travelled. My understanding is that the process of carbon dating would destroy the beads. I need to look into this again.



Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Carbon dating
Re: I agree -- judy Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
07/26/2012, 21:58:43

Can't carbon date most stone, because...well, it contains no carbon.

However, organic artifacts from the surrounding soil layers can certainly be carbon-dated. But if the soil strata are disturbed, of course stone artifacts can't be mated with the ones in their time frame, because the frame has been jumbled.


Related link: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/13/science/13qna.html
Modified by beadiste at Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 22:01:37

Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
It was clay beads excavated with the stone beads that were dated.
Re: Carbon dating -- beadiste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Carl Dreibelbis Post Reply
07/27/2012, 08:50:11



Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Fuzzy dates from clay carbon dating
Re: Carbon dating -- beadiste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
07/27/2012, 10:24:59

Nonetheless, being a couple of hundred years off due to carbon dating difficulties isn't quite the same as being a couple of thousand years off. So Carl's dates do seem to have some evidence on their side.

"Although the AMS dating of organic material in pottery once seemed a straightforward proposition, experience has shown it to be particularly challenging. There are several possible sources of carbon within the fabric of a pot, and occasionally as surface residues. Often the sherd is of low carbon, which means that a larger than usual amount of material is required for a direct date. The clay matrix might contribute old carbon, while the smoke and soot generated during firing can be absorbed into the temper. If firing uses old wood, results may be too early ... Hedges et al. (1992) have concluded that this technique is often unreliable due to theincorporation of carbon from the clay. Manning et al. (2011)have demonstrated in Mali that direct pot fabric radio carbon dates are 300400 years older than OSL dates on the same sherd and at odds with dates of other more reliable organic remains. Kuzmin et al.(2001)have shown that a stepped combustion approach to dating pottery sometimes produces quite different ages with different temperatures, because temper-derived carbon tends tobe preferentially removed with a lower temperature combustion than the carbon bonded within the clay fraction."


Related link: http://oxford.academia.edu/TomHigham/Papers/629039/Cutting_a_Gordian_Knot._The_Bronze_Age_of_Southeast_Asia_origins_timing_and_impact

Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
The Humid Period in North Africa
Re: I think they are ancient -- judy Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
07/26/2012, 22:19:39

Rummaging through Wikipedia [because I can never remember Paleolitic to Neolithic timelines], I was reminded of the Humid Period, when North Africa was wet and lush (monsoon rains!), beginning around 14,800 BP and lasting until maybe 5,500 years ago (3500 BC).

So Judy's report might be very interesting reading...


Related link: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/09/health/09iht-09sahara.12736020.html
Modified by beadiste at Thu, Jul 26, 2012, 22:22:06

Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Alok Kanungo, yes?
Re: I think they are ancient -- judy Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
07/26/2012, 22:29:37


Related link: http://southasia.wisc.edu/events/spring10.htm

Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
comparison ancient vs Niger newlymade 'ancient' beads? Anyone?
Re: I think they are ancient -- judy Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: karavanserai Post Reply
07/27/2012, 03:22:10

Hi Judy,
would love to have a copy of that report. I have a soft spot for ancient stones as well and I wondered if you, or any one else could show some pictures as to see the difference between the ancient stones and the newly made 'ancient' ones. I have also seen some larger quantities for sale over here and have been wondering....

martine

Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Martine, if you contact me privately and give me your email address
Re: comparison ancient vs Niger newlymade 'ancient' beads? Anyone? -- karavanserai Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: judy Post Reply
07/27/2012, 08:59:37

I will send the report. I will try to take a picture of reproductions today or tomorrow. How did Friday come around so fast?!!



Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Re: Depending on the size......
Re: Depending on the size...... -- Carl Dreibelbis Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadstore.com Post Reply
07/26/2012, 17:18:14

I'm certainly not an expert, but I have become suspicious of these Mali quartz "dig" beads. There seems to have been an explosion of them in the last several years, and I have no idea how we would authenticate them -- outside of a controlled environment. Is is possible that labor in Mali is cheap enough to make new "ancient" beads in the traditional fashion?



Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Pecked and/or bow-drilled?
Re: Ancient? -- birdi Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
07/26/2012, 20:45:37

Aren't bowl-shaped depressions around the hole evidence of bow-drilling?



Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Re: Pecked and/or bow-drilled?
Re: Pecked and/or bow-drilled? -- beadiste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: judy Post Reply
07/26/2012, 21:14:15

the holes in the bead that is pictured are drilled with a cone shaped drill. It could have been a bow drill, that I don't know for sure.



Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Bow drills
Re: Pecked and/or bow-drilled? -- beadiste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
07/26/2012, 22:41:50

Guess where Wikipedia says the oldest one so far was discovered - Mehrgarh, in Pakistan, a precursor to the Indus Valley Civilization:

"Numerous burials have been found, many with elaborate goods such as baskets, stone and bone tools, beads, bangles, pendants..."




Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Unwearable?
Re: Ancient? -- birdi Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
07/27/2012, 10:04:48

What's always struck me as odd about these beads is the un-wearability of a whole strand of them. Rough, sharp edges, heavy...

I can see wearing one or two suspended from a leather cord or something as a pendant -
"OK, everyone from Clan A put on your stone ring and stand on this side of the dance ground" -
"I have survived the puberty ceremonies" -
"It's a lucky charm that wards off _____________"
"Cool, huh?"

Or something for ceremonial burial use, in which case the wearer wouldn't care one bit about the weight or roughness of the beads.



Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Re: Unwearable?
Re: Unwearable? -- beadiste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: judy Post Reply
07/27/2012, 15:57:53

I don't think the larger beads were worn on a necklace. They would have been worn as a pendant as the Dogon wear the large granite beads. The shallow biconical shape is worn today as a pendant in Mauretania and Mali. When I consider the huge and heavy neck rings and anklets that have been worn in Africa I can only say WOW! to the strength of African men and women. These beads would have been trivia in comparison. I have attached pictures of two NEW ancient beads. The mottled one measures 71mm in diameter and the reddish quartz bead measures 52mm in diameter. They are both disk shaped. I have had cylindrical and kinda round beads in the past but I don't keep the fakes. They turn me off. If anyone wants these for examples I will send them for the cost of the post but I don't want them to be sold, PLEASE!!

fake_1_bcn.jpg (77.5 KB)  fake_2_bcn.jpg (87.8 KB)  


Modified by judy at Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 15:58:57

Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Thank you for the pics. Wonder if small ones are as easy to detect.
Re: Re: Unwearable? -- judy Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: karavanserai Post Reply
07/28/2012, 02:09:03

martine

Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Re: Thank you for the pics. Wonder if small ones are as easy to detect.
Re: Thank you for the pics. Wonder if small ones are as easy to detect. -- karavanserai Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: judy Post Reply
07/28/2012, 14:43:37

You have to look closely at the holes. The edges tend to be sharp and quite often the holes go straight through. Also the surface of the beads is frequently badly finished and a softer type of stone is used.



Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Check out the necklace
Re: Ancient? -- birdi Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
07/27/2012, 10:13:28

http://www.artsconnected.org/resource/3814/equestrian-figure

Be sure to click the + button to zoom in.


Related link: http://www.artsconnected.org/resource/3814/equestrian-figure
Modified by beadiste at Fri, Jul 27, 2012, 10:14:38

Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users


Forum     Back