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etched carnelians
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Posted by: bulaste Post Reply
02/17/2012, 12:34:49

Hullo, I have been browsing through this forum at times, thought I'd post a few beads.

My main interest in beads has been old himalayan beads after many trips & many years hiking skiing & generally wander through himalayan regions. Particularly dzi beads & old agates, the local myth & mystery behind the beads has always fascinated me.

Has some etched carnelian/agate beads that I find interesting, the material used includes some colorful banded agate verging on jasper in places.

etchc1.jpg (115.2 KB)  


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Re: etched carnelians
Re: etched carnelians -- bulaste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: bulaste Post Reply
02/17/2012, 12:51:06

etchc2.jpg (86.3 KB)  etchc3.jpg (72.1 KB)  


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Re: Re: etched carnelians
Re: Re: etched carnelians -- bulaste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: bulaste Post Reply
02/17/2012, 13:02:21

etchc_4.jpg (67.2 KB)  etchc_5.jpg (72.6 KB)  


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Re: Re: etched carnelians
Re: Re: etched carnelians -- bulaste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: bulaste Post Reply
02/17/2012, 13:09:28

etchc_6.jpg (49.0 KB)  etchc_7.jpg (83.7 KB)  


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Re: Re: Re: etched carnelians
Re: Re: Re: etched carnelians -- bulaste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: bulaste Post Reply
02/17/2012, 15:02:20

etchc_8.jpg (101.7 KB)  etchc_9.jpg (100.6 KB)  


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Re: etched carnelians
Re: etched carnelians -- bulaste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: waneeho Post Reply
02/18/2012, 16:01:42

Hello Bulaste
I believe if you could downsize your photos more people would respond to them. They are so large that the details are lost and it is very difficult to evaluate them. Not sure what sort of photo editor program you use, but changing the image size to something around 6 to 8 inches would likely help a lot. About the same time you made your original post, another BCN member (TASART) posted a link to a lesson on how to handle bead photos, you should be able to find it easily. It might help you accomplish the necessary down-sizing. It looks like you have some really beautiful beads, I think we would all love to see them more sharply. Good luck. Paul



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Re: Re: etched carnelians
Re: Re: etched carnelians -- waneeho Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: bulaste Post Reply
02/19/2012, 11:14:26

thanks in the future I'll re-size before submitting.



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Re: Re: etched carnelians
Re: Re: etched carnelians -- waneeho Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: bulaste Post Reply
02/20/2012, 20:02:08

trying a new size

h&e1.jpg (91.6 KB)  IMG_0226.jpg (85.3 KB)  


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Much much better, you did good. Let's see some more.
Re: Re: Re: etched carnelians -- bulaste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: waneeho Post Reply
02/21/2012, 18:19:58



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Re: Much much better, you did good. Let's see some more.
Re: Much much better, you did good. Let's see some more. -- waneeho Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: bulaste Post Reply
02/24/2012, 13:34:00

Sure I'll show you some more, need to take some more pics though & in the meantime it's snowing & there's powder to be had, priorities you know, maybe in a couple days.



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Hi Bulaste, David resized your images so they are easier to view.
Re: etched carnelians -- bulaste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Joyce Post Reply
02/18/2012, 21:00:30



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Re: etched carnelians
Re: etched carnelians -- bulaste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: jeff Post Reply
02/24/2012, 18:35:19

Love the etched beads!
Here's a few of mine. I really need to dig them out and take some decent pics!

DSC03691.JPG (144.5 KB)  


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Re: Re: etched carnelians
Re: Re: etched carnelians -- jeff Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: bulaste Post Reply
02/24/2012, 22:50:36

cool Jeff,

I would like a better look at the one third from the left & second row up from the bottom.



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Re: Re: Re: etched carnelians
Re: Re: Re: etched carnelians -- bulaste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: jeff Post Reply
03/05/2012, 12:01:45

Hi Bulaste, that one's glass. Islamic era crescent pendant.
Cheers, Jeff



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Re: etching - some different examples - Indus Valley
Re: etched carnelians -- bulaste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Will Post Reply
02/25/2012, 11:45:25

Hi Bulaste,

I should have replied earlier, but I couldn't figure out the images in your initial pics and I overlooked the clearer ones that David reconfigured. These are interesting-looking beads and I'l like to see them still more clearly. Also the dimensions. I'm a bit puzzled by the way in which the pattern on some of them seems to be encrusted on top of the stone. In my own experience this does sometimes occur with etched beads but I haven't seen it to this degree. Is it possible to get a close-up which shows the etched line as it bites into the surface?

For comparison, I'll attach a photo of a bead (which I showed here a few years ago) that came with a group from the Indus Valley - therefore third millennium BCE. Though I'm pretty sure about the dating on most of the beads on the string, I couldn't swear to this one; it could be later - say, first millennium BCE. It's an interesting bead because it seems as though the beadmaker intended the etched line to be white but the stone got too hot and it turned black - except in one spot that remained white. The bead is 16 mm. long.

And, Jeff, you have some great beads there. I'd love to see some more pics.

Best regards,

Will

1_IndusV124b.jpg (33.9 KB)  1_IndusV124fs.jpg (63.9 KB)  


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Re: Re: etching - some different examples - Indus Valley & Samon Valley/Pyu
Re: Re: etching - some different examples - Indus Valley -- Will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Will Post Reply
02/25/2012, 11:58:20

Here's another interesting Indus Valley bead where the white etching has for some reason turned pink. It's 18 mm. long.

And then a slightly ellipsoidal cylinder bead from the Samon Valley in Burma. It's 37 mm. It dates from the late first millennium BCE. The carnelian has a lovely translucent glow, and the perforation is very finely drilled, as with many of these beads. These Samon Valley beads are often ascribed to the later Pyu culture (100-900 CE).

W.

IndusV125c.jpg (26.2 KB)  SamonV-Pyu137.jpg (59.0 KB)  


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Re: Re: Re: etching - Samon Valley Pumtek - WARNING about pumteks
Re: Re: Re: etching - some different examples - Indus Valley & Samon Valley/Pyu -- Will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Will Post Reply
02/25/2012, 12:16:36

Finally, for now, here's a picture of a pumtek that was excavated from a Samon Valley site just about a year ago. It's one of the few genuinely ancient pumteks that has been found in a scientifically controlled dig. They are extremely rare.

You wouldn't know that from looking at e-bay in recent months, however. A lot of pumteks have been sold recently for very inflated prices by dealers who ought to know better than to advertise them as "ancient". Ancient does not mean "some time in the last 100 years or so," which is the actual date of manufacture of most - all or almost all - of these beads. They're perfectly nice beads, but it bothers me to see people throwing a lot of money away on them. And it gets legitimate sellers (and collectors) of ancient beads a bad name.

There, I've been meaning to say that for several months!

This bead (12 mm. d.) in the picture comes from a site that has been carbon-dated to the late 3rd century BCE. Since the stone is Burmese it's additional confirmation of an indigenous stone-bead-making technology at that date.

Cheers,

Will

SamonV-Pumtek254s.jpg (43.0 KB)  


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Re: Re: etching - some different examples - Indus Valley
Re: Re: etching - some different examples - Indus Valley -- Will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: bulaste Post Reply
02/28/2012, 20:54:05

Thanks Will for showing some interest & showing your beads.
I've tried to get some closer shots of the etching it's difficult the beads are quite small 6-10mm mostly.
Here we have a bead also with lines turning black but it may not show up on the dark surface of the bead itself.
Another shot of a bead I pictured earlier there is a chip on the bottom edge of the eye you can just see the grey of the stone in the bottom corner of the chip, the etching on some of these beads is thicker than usual almost like a pottery glaze in a couple cases but it also penetrates into the stone as you can see (hopefully) in this pic.

IMG_0337.jpg (74.1 KB)  IMG_0333.jpg (71.0 KB)  


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Re: Re: Re: etching - some different examples - Indus Valley
Re: Re: Re: etching - some different examples - Indus Valley -- bulaste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: bulaste Post Reply
02/28/2012, 21:36:14

The dark bead here has the thickest glazing effect of all these beads you can actually feel a raised surface along the decoration with your fingernail. I've seen many etched beads with the decoration slightly recessed, I think the etched part becomes slightly softer from the treatment & wears down over time more than the surrounding stone. Not so with this bead.
Another blacked line bead, overcooked.

IMG_0329.jpg (62.1 KB)  IMG_0330.jpg (66.7 KB)  


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Re: Re: Re: Re: etching - some different examples - Indus Valley
Re: Re: Re: Re: etching - some different examples - Indus Valley -- bulaste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: bulaste Post Reply
02/29/2012, 10:00:37

Here's a couple more, I tried to get a good close-up of the etching for you Will. The etching or decoration on many of these beads has taken a sort of shattered or crazing effect that may be what led you to say the etching looks crusted on top of the bead? The crazing effect is more pronounced on the beads with a higher jasper content. The jasper portions of the beads also weathered differently over time they look brand new in places.
Actually I have been contacted by another member who says they are new reproduction beads but I am so far convinced otherwise.
The crazing effect of the etching does look quite similar to the newly produced beads with so-called dragon veins, sometimes dyed to create an aged effect.
Also a faceted polka dot bead, I've only seen a couple of them before.

IMG_0289.jpg (71.9 KB)  1_IMG_0316.jpg (73.1 KB)  


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Re: etching - some different examples - Indus Valley
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: etching - some different examples - Indus Valley -- bulaste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Will Post Reply
03/02/2012, 13:49:44

Hi again Bulaste,

Sorry again for being slow to reply. I didn't realise the thread was still alive. Thanks for the additional photos; they're much better. These are some very attractive beads, but I'm not sure about their authenticity. I think anyone who says they can be sure on the basis of single images is also to be doubted. But some of these last six - the bottom one in the first post and the top ones in posts 2 and 3 - do seem rather similar to beads I've seen from sellers I don't trust.

Having said that, I wouldn't want to trust my own judgement either! I've handled a lot of Indus Valley and islamic period etched beads and a great many from Southeast Asia, but I have very little experience with beads from Tibet and Nepal. Why don't you post them again in a new thread at the top of page one? It would be good, for instance, to get a response from Bob Brundage who has a fabulous collection - there are some of his beads in the Tibet chapter in Robert Liu's Collectible Beads and also in Jamey Allen's article on Dzi in Arts of Asia.

Cheers,

Will

PS: I really like the look of that faceted polka-dot bead; I've never seen one before.



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Re: Re: etching - some different examples - Indus Valley
Re: Re: etching - some different examples - Indus Valley -- Will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: bulaste Post Reply
03/03/2012, 08:39:00

Hi Will, thanks for the reply again,
My initial post was meant more as an introduction to myself than a comment on these beads. I didn't mean to imply that these beads are from nepal or tibet. They are reportedly from the border of afghanistan & pakistan. I know they came to N.A. from pakistan originally but have no reason to trust the pakistani source particularly.
I feel they are authentic based soley on observation of the beads themselves.
I would be quite suspicious as well looking at some of the images I posted but having the beads in hand with a good loupe & microscope is a different story. I have handled a good number of etched himalayan beads sourced before the reproductions appeared & am familliar with the characteristics of the authentic old beads.
Having said that I'm less aquainted with the reproductions, I've seen some obvious fakes & a few that are good enought that I could not say with certainty one way or the other.These beads if forged are good enough for me to say 95% certainty they are authentic. Many of the beads singularly I would not say so but as a group I would.
I am more than open to opinions & maybe someday will revive the post on page one but for now am about to embark on a trip skiing from manali to kaza & will not be around computers for some time.

cheers,



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