Post Message Search Overview RegisterLoginAdmin
Here are some small loose millies, fancy, and tabs.
Post Reply Edit View All Forum
Posted by: txbeads Post Reply
03/20/2011, 18:13:25

I believe the metal beads are some type of silver. I'm not sure but I have quite a few types of metal beads that appear to be silver, and some that are brass or bronze. Here are some of the small loose beads. Robert
Photobucket



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Re: Here are some small loose millies, fancy, and tabs.
Re: Here are some small loose millies, fancy, and tabs. -- txbeads Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: txbeads Post Reply
03/20/2011, 18:14:32

Photobucket



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Re: Re: Here are some small loose millies, fancy, and tabs.
Re: Re: Here are some small loose millies, fancy, and tabs. -- txbeads Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: txbeads Post Reply
03/20/2011, 18:15:51

Photobucket



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Very nice Venetian beads - Grandpa had good taste!
Re: Re: Re: Here are some small loose millies, fancy, and tabs. -- txbeads Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
03/20/2011, 18:19:55



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Re: Very nice Venetian beads - Grandpa had good taste!
Re: Very nice Venetian beads - Grandpa had good taste! -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: txbeads Post Reply
03/22/2011, 16:41:57

He was a very eclectic man and he loved his beads and antiques.



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Your grandfather's beads look to be in very nice condition,
Re: Re: Re: Here are some small loose millies, fancy, and tabs. -- txbeads Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Joyce Post Reply
03/20/2011, 21:27:22

the green bicones at the top are unusual to find these days. Everything in this image are Venetians from the African trade, but I can't be sure about the solid teal blues on the right.



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Re: Your grandfather's beads look to be in very nice condition,
Re: Your grandfather's beads look to be in very nice condition, -- Joyce Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: txbeads Post Reply
03/22/2011, 16:37:38

Those green and the one black with stripes have the same shape. They are shaped like what I have seen described as "king" beads. Sort of stubby rounded diamond.



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Yes, we are talking about the same bead shape.
Re: Re: Your grandfather's beads look to be in very nice condition, -- txbeads Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Joyce Post Reply
03/22/2011, 23:15:16

For me, "bicone" is more precise than "king" or "stubby rounded diamond". Though "king" is the accepted market name.



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Hi Robert,
Re: Here are some small loose millies, fancy, and tabs. -- txbeads Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Joyce Post Reply
03/20/2011, 21:20:10

It would be nice if we could see a closer view of the large focal chevron on the right. It appears to be (could just be my aging eyes) a nice example of a late 19th - early 20th c. Venetian 5-layer. Much less common than the 6-layer.



Modified by Joyce at Sun, Mar 20, 2011, 21:22:46

Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Re: Hi Robert,
Re: Hi Robert, -- Joyce Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: txbeads Post Reply
03/22/2011, 15:38:36

Here is a close-up of those Chevrons. Are they five or six layer? Robert
Photobucket



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Regarding this specific bead...
Re: Re: Hi Robert, -- txbeads Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Joyce Post Reply
03/22/2011, 16:04:42

Unfortunately I can't see it better in your closeup, but counting layers from the inside out, it appears to be a 5-layer. Correct me if I am wrong:

white
blue
red
white
blue

The more common early 20th c. Venetian 6-layer chevrons have this sequence, inside out:

white
blue
white
red
white
blue



Modified by Joyce at Tue, Mar 22, 2011, 16:07:02

Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Re: Regarding this specific bead...
Re: Regarding this specific bead... -- Joyce Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: txbeads Post Reply
03/22/2011, 16:09:33

That is correct. So the more layers sort of means newer? Thanks, Robert



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Re: Generalizations
Re: Re: Regarding this specific bead... -- txbeads Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
03/22/2011, 17:41:57

Hello Robert,

If only understanding the permutations of rosetta beads were so simple as 'layer-number says how old it is.'

There are a few valid generalizations, but there are also exceptions. There is also a LOT of guesswork involved. Because I have studied rosetta/chevron beads most thoroughly, since 1979, I think my observations and opinions hold the most water. I have been working toward a comprehensive book on these beads for over thirty years. But there are questions for which there are still no answers.

The earliest chevron beads (ca. 1450 to 1600) typically had seven layers (with various predictable other features and variations). Actual chevron beads were ground-down on their ends (usually faceted) to reveal inner layers—which is what MAKES them "chevron beads." Otherwise they are either rosetta beads or star beads.

From ca. 1600 (+ or -), rosetta beads more often had five layers, and were heat-rounded (so these are not "chevron beads")—though they are often similar-looking‚ having starry layers and a red/white/blue color scheme.

In the mid-19th C., the first editions of rosetta/chevron beads with white base layers were made. We can only document a few specimens of this production. The beads are small (ca. the diameter of a pencil), and have ends that look "whittled" (are awkwardly faceted).

In the early 20th C., the standard rosetta/chevron beads we all know and recognize came into existence. This was probably after 1917, and the Moretti Company probably made the first editions. From this time, the standard editions of star canes had either four or six layers—these being: white/red/white/blue (or green or black); and white/blue/white/red/white/blue (or green or black, etc.). Moretti Co. also supplied the Conterie (the Venetian consortium of beadmakers) with star canes. But they were most likely (eventually) not the ONLY makers of star canes. (There are also several editions of white star canes with colored external stripes.)

Which brings us to your bead.

Your bead looks like a five-layer bead that typically has a white/black/red/white/blue color sequence. Compare it the typical six-layer cane, and think of it as: "black for blue, and missing the white layer in-between the black and red layers."

I speculate these canes/beads were made by a competing company in Venice/Murano. They did not exactly copy the Moretti sequence (perhaps they couldn't for guild reasons). And the work itself tends to be sloppy—as though the makers did not have much experience in rosetta bead manufacture.

If the above is true—and until better information comes along, I suspect this is all good and valid reasoning—the odd five-layer beads are 20th C. beads. NOT "19th C." beads. They post-date the Moretti editions, and poorly copy them.

So, the number of layers gives SOME information about the possible or probable time of manufacture. But it is far from the whole story.

I recommend the articles I wrote on millefiori- and rosetta-beadmaking for Ornament magzine in 1982 and 1983; and the paper that appeared in the Proceedings Of The Glass Trade Bead Conference in 1983 (that combines information from both articles). Plus many past posts here.

Jamey



Modified by Beadman at Wed, Mar 23, 2011, 02:49:40

Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
5-layer chevrons
Re: Re: Generalizations -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Joyce Post Reply
03/22/2011, 19:45:59

Thanks Jamey, I have for some time wondered why they are damaged more often than not, and are not always ground very nicely. Robert's is in very nice condition, I like it!



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Other Ideas
Re: 5-layer chevrons -- Joyce Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
03/22/2011, 20:58:03

Hi Joyce,

I've seen one of these beads that was nicely-cut and good-looking, like a standard chevron bead. Those are pretty unusual.

Without any supporting documentation, I suppose one could postulate that the odd ones MIGHT be somewhat earlier than the Moretti beads (or might be THEIR earlier beads)—based on the idea that creating a new line of beads was a process, and whomever had few prototypes to copy, and pursued the work with clumsiness.

That is not unreasonable, and I would have no decent argument against it.

However, most of the time, when I see these ideas, I know they are based on simplistic thinking. For instance, back in the early '70s, the owner of The Bead Store on Castro Street, told everyone the simpler four-layer beads with chamfered ends were "from the 14th century"—essentially based on the idea that they were "more crude." This argument or speculation doesn't hold water, when we see the bigger picture.

Jamey



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Re: Other Ideas
Re: Other Ideas -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Jim Johnson Post Reply
03/22/2011, 22:30:50

Jamey - what period do you then attribute 4-layer Chevrons with chamfered ends to?
Thanks.



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Re: Period
Re: Re: Other Ideas -- Jim Johnson Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
03/22/2011, 23:42:55

Hello Jim,

As I stated already, I believe that typical 4-layer and 6-layer beads were devised by Moretti, and made from 1917 through the 20th century. It has been demonstrated historically that stores of canes for beadmaking were made at Venice prior to WWI and WWII, and then used-up during those wars.

In the 1980s, when the Picards bought red star canes at Murano, and had them made into conventional chevron beads, the claim was made that these were "canes from the 1920s." I countered this proposition with the suggestion that they were made AFTER WWII, and that there were no canes leftover from before WWII. Although sample cards demonstrate that bright red beads were made in the 1920s, and that this is the time that the bright red glass was introduced at Venice, my interviews with glassworkers from Venice supported what I believed happened. Nevertheless, I have come to accept that, indeed, these red star canes do persist from the 1920s, although MOST of the stocks of canes had been used up during WWII.

Anyway, it is understood that cane-makers wanted to create stores of canes that would last a long time, allowing them to pursue "more important work," and that these stores were expected to last as long as about fifty years. Moretti canes were made in 1917, after WWI and after WWII. These stores of canes were still available for sale as late as 1993, when the Conterie went bankrupt—and their inventory sold.

This explains why there are so many similar conventional blue chevron beads, made throughout the 20th century. There were lots of beads, made from only a few batches of canes, but great numbers of canes. A stock of these canes is now stored here in the U.S., by an enterprising merchant who has them stored in a warehouse. Even though conventional commercial canes have not been produced at Venice for a long time, there is no real danger we will "run out" of traditional chevron beads, until all these canes are used. (However, they will probably cost a lot of money.)

Jamey



Modified by Beadman at Wed, Mar 23, 2011, 02:42:06

Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Re: Re: Period
Re: Re: Period -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Jim Johnson Post Reply
03/23/2011, 12:49:08

Thanks Jamey - I appreciate your knowledge/response.



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
You are welcome!
Re: Re: Re: Period -- Jim Johnson Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
03/23/2011, 15:19:43



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Correct Moretti Date
Re: Re: Generalizations -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
01/28/2019, 15:59:05

I wrote "1917" for the year that the Moretti Family began making conventional chevron beads.

My mistake!

The date they provide in 1911—closer to the turn of the century, if only six years earlier.

("1917" sticks in my head because this is the year that the Carroll Report was composed at Venice, discussing the history of the glass industry. My annotations for this report were presented in BEADS (from the SBR) in 2002.)

Jamey (January 2019)



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users


Forum     Back