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Nylon vs Polyester thread?
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Posted by: birdi Post Reply
01/27/2011, 18:54:02

Is there any difference between nylon and polyester threads? I read they are both polymer materials, but in practical terms, for strength and long lasting properties as necklace cord, are they the same? I ordered nylon thread, but the spool is marked polyester.



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Re: Nylon vs Polyester Lines
Re: Nylon vs Polyester thread? -- birdi Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
01/28/2011, 00:26:46

Hi Robin,

I prefer nylon—and use "Conso" and similar lines more than any others.

I have no practical reasons for elevating nylon, with one significant exception. I'm very fussy about the colors of the lines I use. When a specific color is not available, I dye the cords. I've been doing this for more years than I can remember. Unfortunately, typical commercial dyes (Ritt and Tintex), will not dye polyester. So I tend to avid them, except for colors I see that I like.

Occasionally, polyester lines are misrepresented as "nylon." I discovered this after purchasing a large number of big rolls of cord, from a famous supplier—but found they would not take a dye. After I reported my experience, the correct name was applied in their online catalogue.

For very fine lines (threads) I routinely buy cotton-covered polyester. I like cotton and silk better, but polyester is more available these days.

Jamey



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about threads and threading
Re: Re: Nylon vs Polyester Lines -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Stefany Post Reply
01/28/2011, 01:37:53

Nowadays unlike 50 yrs ago you dont get your pearls on silk rethreaded every year, because although the price of precious materials has generally come down, skilled labour is relatively very expensive, so when threaded you want your necklace to last!

If the holes of your beads are large, you can and you should use the maximum amount of threads that will fit, because otherwise your beads dont hang beautifully and symmetrically and theres the danger, to the beads and the thread, of rubbing and wearing away. So you can create a cord by mixing ANY threads together which gives a great range of colour effects.
Also if you are knotting in the way that I teach, then you know that the knot will be nice and large even when tightened and compacted and wont slide inside the beads.

I never use polyester which I find treacherous.

I still have a european source at the moment of wonderful "bonded" nylon thread many colours in useful thicknesses which has the advantage of being constructed of continuous fibres which are very strong, virtually no stretch, and you can pull very hard when tightening the knots. "Bonded" means the thread is slightly slippery on the outside but it hasnt actually been waxed.
Actually its made for machine-stitching shoes and handbags and wetsuits, etc so its not in bead shop catalogues. The nearest that I found a few years ago was sold by Beadsmith on tiny reels or cards but a rather skinny thickness. That doesnt matter too much because you simply use more double thicknesses.
Howver there are now factories for similar threads in both Turkey and China so eventually they will catch up with the market that exists in the jewellery-making world.

The methods using doubled thread that I teach are in my books and in principle I'm available to teach which could be discussed. Since the '70s I've taught some of the people who work with top designers in London. (At present I cant just jump on a plane because I have to be close to my 98-yr-old mum but the time will come...)



Modified by Stefany at Fri, Jan 28, 2011, 01:53:11

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testing thread
Re: about threads and threading -- Stefany Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Stefany Post Reply
01/28/2011, 01:50:49

Labels can be inaccurate, and shop assistants dont usually know more than you do.
The classic test is to hold a match to the thread end.
If the fibres rapidly melt back into a small blob its likely nylon. Some threads labelled polyester also slightly do this and I suspect they contain a proportion of nylon.
Natural fibres such as cotton or silk actually burn.
Wool smells of scorching.

Also to clarify- by the way -the bonded nylon I'm talking about and recommend is a spun thread of nylon filaments, twisting together 3 spun fibre strands, NOT the dental floss stuff and NOT the fishing line monofilament that hobby people used to use before tigertail cable became popular.



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Names
Re: testing thread -- Stefany Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
01/28/2011, 02:18:22

Hi Stef,

Here in the US, the three-ply nylon cord is popularly called "Conso," although (I think) Conso is no longer made, and several companies produce what is essentially the same sorts upholstery lines.

When I began using this stuff in the early 1970s, it was marketed as "waxed nylon chocker line," and as "macramé cord" (even though it was not always actually waxed. Some lines are said to be "waxed" (but aren't) that have sizing (starch) applied to their surfaces, that accomplishes, more or less, the same thing as waxing. They say the lined is "waxed" to avoid having to say it's "sized"—because notions sellers would go crazy answering the nonsensical but predictable question—"what size is it?"

A bonded line has been steamed, to "set" the lay of the twisted fibers.

Jamey



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Re: testing thread
Re: testing thread -- Stefany Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: birdi Post Reply
01/28/2011, 07:01:46

Oh dear. So, they are not the same. I already knew I wanted nylon, not polyester, and you confirm. This spool came from China through ebay... one of those purchases which is difficult to return. So frustrating... I wanted some thicker cord.

I need to reread, but did anyone mention the brand name of available nylon cord/thread/line?... multi ply twisted? Are we experiencing supply shortages? I have some thicker nylon thread I like a lot bought at an upholstery shop, but that store is closed so I'm searching for a new source.



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Re: good threads
Re: Re: testing thread -- birdi Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Stefany Post Reply
01/28/2011, 12:18:02

In the days when any sensible thread was difficult to buy I often unravelled thicker ply threads, or braided very thin ones together when needing more bulk.
Polyester is generally OK except when you need reliable strength and the bead holes are tiny.
The watchword in any craft really is:"improvise".



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I tend to buy almost any lines that come my way.
Re: Re: good threads -- Stefany Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
01/28/2011, 12:27:16



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testing the polyester
Re: Re: testing thread -- birdi Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: birdi Post Reply
01/29/2011, 09:48:45

well, it melts to a blob under a flame, so that is good. It also drapes well. I haven't tried pulling knots against beads yet. I think it will be usable. It's a color I use only occasionally, and far more than I need, but I'll put with the stash and will surely find uses for it.



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Stringing Material recommendations
Re: Nylon vs Polyester thread? -- birdi Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: globalbeads Post Reply
01/28/2011, 22:13:17

My preference is nylon as well - although it does require pre-stretching, Nylon does not drape as well as silk - but silk lacks the strength of Nylon.

I recommend Conso #18 3-ply, Mastex #18 3-ply and Superlon -
All three Ideal for stringing, bead crochet and micro-macramé jewelry! Superlon is an extra-heavy #18 twisted nylon multi-filament cord. If you like Conso® and Mastex® cords, you’ll love our bead/mac cord. There are 51 beautiful, vibrant colors available. Each spool contains approximately 77 yards of cord.” Superlon comes in two thickness.

Another option would be Hemp or Irish waxed linen - comes in 2-ply or 3-ply 9 which means 2 or 3 strands twisted to make one strand. Also available in many colors and two multiple thicknesses.

**
If using seedbeads: another product to consider is Silimide (prestretched and waxed)- in leiu of Nymo

For seedbeads and weaving small beads I also recommend Fireline® is a pre waxed, braided cord consisting of gel-spun polyetholine – which is known as the strongest fiber, per diameter, ever created. It has an unbelievably high tensile strength and has been recommended in numerous how-to articles on beadworking.

The 4 and 6 lb. tests will fit a #12 English beading needle.

**
When stringing (no knots) I recommend Soft-Flex wire - 7 strands of 7 strands woven for greater flexibility. with crimp tubes and always use crimping pliers. Soft-flex comes in 4 diameters, .014 and .019 are the most widely used. .010 and .024 require different crimp tubes and other crimping pliers. (I do not recommend Tiger-tail as it is too wirery)

Note: all materials take color differently - silk, vs. nylon vs hemp, etc.

I do not recommend Jute(which is sometimes sold as Hemp), cotton, or polyester.
Fishing line is made to breakdown and becomes brittle. - made for fishing.
Dental floss - flavored - attracts ants - and is made to break down - made for teeth.

Hope this helps!

IWL-grp.jpg (1799 bytes)  BS-grp.jpg (8990 bytes)  
Kathleen, Global Beads, Inc

Modified by globalbeads at Fri, Jan 28, 2011, 22:17:00

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Re: Training Pilots
Re: Nylon vs Polyester thread? -- birdi Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
01/30/2011, 10:15:43

This post is presented in-preparation for the post I want to leave, that pertains to a comment recently made about necklace design. So this is an introductory exposition to "create the space" for what I actually want to say.

The following tells us a lot about human nature.

When men (they mostly are men, but women are included) are trained to become pilots for airplanes—having the responsibility to SAFELY operate some of the largest and most complicated machines made by humans—specific steps are taken to insure safe operation and to react properly when something goes dangerously WRONG.

In training pilots to deal with air emergencies, their training demands that pilots REJECT their first and most typical reactions, and instead take a different tact.

Normal human nature is to reject the idea that "I have done something wrong." The more well-trained and instructed you are, the more you begin to think you are nearly infallible. The first reaction, in an emergency situation, is "something has gone wrong with the plane's mechanics." Or "something is wrong with the plane."

In fact, it is much more common that the pilot has made a mistake in procedure.

The pilot has done something out-of-sequence, or has left out some step, or initiated something inadvertently. There are probably many possibilities here.

If the pilot decides "the plane is wrong" he wastes valuable time trying to fix a situation that is not the real problem. This could result in a worse situation—including a crash and loss of lives.

INSTEAD, pilots are trained to ask themselves, "what did I do to cause this situation, and what do I have to do to correct it?" Most air-incidents are caused by human fallibility, much more often than mechanical failure.

But it takes a lot of training to get pilots away from the mind-set that the plane is to blame for whatever problems materialize. Yet, they are taught that if they "take the blame," the problem is solved much more quickly and effectively.

The moral of the story is two-fold:

Take responsibility for the situation, and find the real cause.

Don't waste time trying to "fix' a problem that doesn't actually exist. Find the real problem, and deal with that.

JDA.



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Effective Necklace Design
Re: Re: Training Pilots -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
01/30/2011, 11:30:14

Over the past twenty years, I have developed a class to teach my techniques for making attractive and well-made necklaces (and other constructions) with beads. This is a two-day class, in which I distill forty-plus years of experience down to a few hours, and I teach the most useful ideas, approaches, skills, and techniques that anyone with two hands can learn in an intensive course.

In discussing good necklace design, one of the many things I stress is the issue of "cord stretching."

It has been my personal experience (in my early days), as well as with many budding designers, that poor work is often blamed on the lines used. "The necklace is a failure because the cords stretched." We usually don't say "I did a lousy job of stringing this necklace." Because THAT IS HUMAN NATURE.

However, in order to make a good well-designed and executed necklace, we have to understand what is really happening, and what we can do about it to avoid the problems that can occur. What I'm about to say is very likely to be rejected by many people who THINK they have had this experience. If you want to perform good work, pay attention, understand what I'm saying, listen to the actual problems, and understand the actual solutions.

In most practical situations, CORDS DO NOT STRETCH.

If you make a necklace, and the result is that there are areas where the cord is visible and seems longer than the demands of the necklace to hold the beads in-place, this DID NOT happen "because the cords stretched." There are OTHER reasons for this appearance.

It is pointless to "pre-stretch" cords (because this is not the problem). When lines are sold that are labeled "pre-stretched," this is a nonsensical selling feature to get you to buy these products because they will be deemed "superior" to "unstretched cords."

There are three typical things that can occur in necklace design that give the APPEARANCE that the cords have "stretched." We have to deal with THESE issues. NOT pulling on the lines to get rid of "stretch."

1) Poor technique. The tension of the lines, in knotting and finishing has been inadequate. Knots are not tight enough, and correct spacing between knots or at the finishing has not been accomplished. We have to tie appropriately tight knots, and to only allow just-enough space when tying-off necklaces (whether closing a strand or attaching a clasp).

2) The wrong line for the situation. A primary rule-of-thumb is that the cords selected ought to be as thick as possible to go through the beads with the smallest perforations. If the line is thin and the beads have big holes, the beads will not hang straight, but instead (because of gravity), they will turn in their orientation and hang to take up the least amount of space possible. I call this "bead settling." The result is more cord at the ends of the necklace at the back. If beads with different sizes of perforations are used, each bead has to be treated individually, so that it's perforation is appropriately filled or held in-place.

3) Cord unwinding. The majority of lines used in necklace design are two-ply or three-ply twisted lines. The more a line is twisted, the shorter it is, and less it is twisted, the longer it is. If a designer makes a necklace on a single line of cord, that is open (has a clasp, rather than being a closed continuous circle), the opportunity is there that, over time, the line will untwist, and the cord will be seen to have become longer. HOWEVER, this is not "stretching." It's lengthening. The solution to this problem is EASY. We always make a necklace with a doubled line—because with a doubled line there is no possibility that the lines can individually untwist and become longer. Any turning of the lines will tend to make the necklace SHORTER, because this makes the twist of the two lines tighter. It's also helpful to use braided lines, because these do not untwist.

4) Deterioration. I said there were THREE typical possibilities, but here's a bonus situation. Sometimes, when we see old necklaces (as from the 1920s and older), the lines appear to be stretched, and the spaces between beads or at the back have "extra" cord. This can be due to the causes described above. But also, over time, some lines deteriorate, and lose mass. (Particularly natural lines like silk and cotton.) Less bulk in the lines means they will not hold the beads effectively, and will give the appearance of cord stretching. Plus, in some senses, these lines HAVE stretched. (The lines have become fatigued.) But this takes a very long time.

You who are skeptical may be asking yourselves (and me), "OK Jamey—how do we know this is all true?"

The above is based on MANY years of experiments—failures and successes. But here's a tangible proof:

Make a necklace that is TOO TIGHT—and you will find it will remain too tight forever (or for a very long time). Because THE CORDS DO NOT STRETCH!

Take 12 inches of twisted nylon. Hold the ends and stretch it as long as you want. Then measure it again. It will still be 12 inches long. (Nylon has stretchability, but it also snaps back.) However, you CAN stroke the line between your fingers—causing it to untwist. and this will make it become longer. But this is NOT "stretching." In preparation for making a necklace, I recommend some stroking of the lines—often in-combination with waxing the lines to make them more impermeable to sweat and liquids. This preserves them—and provides a slight buffer between the beads and the line. (Beads erode lines; and lines erode beads—depending upon which is harder.) This stoking of the lines will tend to cause them to untwist a bit—which is going to happen anyway. I recommend waxing the ends to keep lines from fraying. But how you string the beads onto the lines is a totally different issue from our present topic.

The moral of the story is: understand the problem(s) and fix it or avoid it (or them). Don't waste time "fixing" issues that are not the real problems.

The above is just one topic among many more that are discussed in my bead-stringing classes.

I have discussed the above online a number of times, though not recently.

I hope this is food for thought.

Jamey



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