Post Message Search Overview RegisterLoginAdmin
Kathleen, a big strand of dark red phenolic beads
Post Reply Edit View All Forum
Posted by: Carl Dreibelbis Post Reply
01/20/2011, 16:47:54

Hi Kathleen,

Not sure if I have ever posted this image or not. Here is a fine strand of old red, dark red, chestnut and black phenolic resin beads. Many of these are hand carved and this took me about 30 years of collecting.

Carl

1_red-amber.jpg (61.0 KB)  


Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Simply beautiful...
Re: Kathleen, a big strand of dark red phenolic beads -- Carl Dreibelbis Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Dari Post Reply
01/20/2011, 17:01:01



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Beautiful bakelite beads...
Re: Kathleen, a big strand of dark red phenolic beads -- Carl Dreibelbis Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Pudgy Post Reply
01/20/2011, 17:16:17

Let's start cutting the crap with this pseudo-academic phenolic resin jargon. The beads are bakelite, a kind of plastic. The material is bakelite. Will you call quartz "silicon dioxide"? So cut the crap, okay?



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
You cut the crap first....okay?
Re: Beautiful bakelite beads... -- Pudgy Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Carl Dreibelbis Post Reply
01/20/2011, 17:17:50



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
First you are all about no campfire names, now? You might benefit from a breathalyzer b4 you post.
Re: You cut the crap first....okay? -- Carl Dreibelbis Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: jake@nomaddesign Post Reply
01/20/2011, 18:01:51



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Nice beads Carl, it is always nice to see them.
Re: First you are all about no campfire names, now? You might benefit from a breathalyzer b4 you post. -- jake@nomaddesign Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: jake@nomaddesign Post Reply
01/20/2011, 18:05:09



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Thank you, Carl...
Re: You cut the crap first....okay? -- Carl Dreibelbis Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Logan Post Reply
01/21/2011, 15:08:48

For the post, for the beads, for the (what I believe to be a pseudo-) smile, and for the retort (most of all)!



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Hi Logan, this is about as close as I get......LOL. Thanks for all.
Re: Thank you, Carl... -- Logan Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Carl Dreibelbis Post Reply
01/21/2011, 15:37:47



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Carl: YUM
Re: Kathleen, a big strand of dark red phenolic beads -- Carl Dreibelbis Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: globalbeads Post Reply
01/20/2011, 19:58:03

Kathleen, Global Beads, Inc

Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Bakelite is one particular type of phenolic resin
Re: Kathleen, a big strand of dark red phenolic beads -- Carl Dreibelbis Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
01/20/2011, 22:39:39

Here is one area where I would humbly suggest I have some expertise, based on a PhD in Polymer Science and Engineering. Bakelite is the trade name of one particular phenol-formaldehyde resin formulation, to which wood powder or other materials was usually added as a filler. These materials are generically called phenolic resins.

Bakelite was invented by a Belgian chemist who emigrated to the US, Dr. Leo Baekeland. So it is proper to capitalize Bakelite. It is also true that the name of this plastic has become almost a generic term (like kleenex for all Kleenex-like tissues), so I sometimes see it written bakelite.

When the patent for Bakelite expired in 1927, the production of this particular phenolic resin took off and many different companies began producing filled and unfilled phenolic resin molded parts as well as bar, sheet, and rod stock. Other trade names for phenolic resins were introduced, including Catalin and Marblette. The materials were made with all sorts of fillers, colorants, and marbling effects, or unfilled and clear. I believe it was at this point in time that phenolic resin rod stock began to be imported into Africa, where it was worked into beads. I also think I read somewhere that a lot or most of this raw stock was made in Germany.

It may be that many phenolic resin beads are, in fact, made of the original Bakelite resin formulation and/or from stock produced by the original Bakelite Corp. But unless you know for sure, calling them by their generic material class, phenolic resin, would be best, since otherwise you are claiming a provenance that can't be verified.



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Thank you Rosanna, that makes a lot of sense to my layperson brain!
Re: Bakelite is one particular type of phenolic resin -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Joyce Post Reply
01/20/2011, 23:05:08



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
my lamebrain too
Re: Thank you Rosanna, that makes a lot of sense to my layperson brain! -- Joyce Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: TASART Post Reply
01/21/2011, 20:20:42



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
'Bout sums it up...again!
Re: Bakelite is one particular type of phenolic resin -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Pudgy Post Reply
01/21/2011, 01:07:06

Do think we should put the cap "V" on vulcanite (so as not to slight Vulcan) and then abandon the term in favor of sulfurized polyisoprene (SPIP)?
Just kidding, of course!



Modified by Pudgy at Fri, Jan 21, 2011, 01:45:37

Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Vulcanite history
Re: 'Bout sums it up...again! -- Pudgy Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
01/21/2011, 06:48:50

It appears that vulcanite is a term currently used for a copper telluride mineral discovered in 1961 in Vulcan, Colorado. Previously it was a "generic" term for very hard, vulcanized natural rubber, that was trade-named Ebonite. The vulcanization process was discovered by Charles Goodyear, and refers to adding sulphur to natural rubber to crosslink the polyisoprene and other molecules in the chemical "soup" that is natural rubber latex (tree sap of the New World Hevea tree). Goodyear did not coin the term "vulcanization" for his process and appears he did not use vulcanite as a term to describe his materials.

I don't know what material was used for the thin disk beads that are strung on raffia, generically called vulcanite by bead people, and are part of the "African trade". If I have time at work I'll see if I can determine what polymer the disks are made of, because now I'm curious.

I've never seen the term vulcanization or the name vulcanite capitalized, probably since neither term was ever trademarked, to my knowledge.

vulcanitebeads.jpg (21.6 KB)  


Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Re: Vulcanite history, beads etc
Re: Vulcanite history -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Carole Morris Post Reply
01/21/2011, 08:01:19

Hi Rosanna

We have had a discussion of vulcanite beads before - Joyce I can't find the thread, could you get a link for us?

They are on the Sick trade card in this link. I have several different kinds of these beads and they all appear to be proper vulcanite as per the patent granted to Hancock in England in 1843 and to Nelson Goodyear (brother of Charles) in USA in 1851 .

The material is most commonly black in colour and in jewellery terms used to imitate Whitby jet, but it has also been used to make beads, combs, buttons, vesta cases, fountain pens, pipe stems (both plain and decorative), musical instruments, etc.

A reddish colour was used for denture plates until superseded by celluloid and acrylic. A reddish material rippled with black was popular about 1930 for fountain pen and pencil barrels.

It was originally based on natural rubber but since the 1930's has been based wholly or partly on various synthetic rubbers.

Beads found are mostly black or red.

Carole

image



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Link, hopefully
Re: Re: Vulcanite history, beads etc -- Carole Morris Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Carole Morris Post Reply
01/21/2011, 08:02:51

image



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Link??
Re: Re: Vulcanite history, beads etc -- Carole Morris Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Carole Morris Post Reply
01/21/2011, 08:03:37


Related link: http://www.picardbeads.com/e_archive/archive4/ex33.html

Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
You are right Carole
Re: Re: Vulcanite history, beads etc -- Carole Morris Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
01/21/2011, 22:41:29

I forgot about that page in the Sick catalog. If the term vulcanite passed into a generic usage for all types of hard plastics, then it's easy to see why people even today would call all sorts of hard opaque plastic beads, especially the thin disks, "vulcanite".

It's hard to believe that the disks I have are as old as 1930, so now I'm even more curious about what plastic or rubber they are made of. Although, vulcanized rubber is pretty durable stuff.

Joyce, the disks that seem to stick together may indicate that they are a different plastic than the ones that don't (different surface tension). Many of the disks on my strand are very stuck together but I figured that was due to the dirt on them. I also have on the same strand, disks that are extremely discolored and others that look perfectly clean. Good thing there are so many on the strand since several are going to be sacrificed to the beadology gods.



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Black disc material vs. colored material......
Re: Vulcanite history -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Joyce Post Reply
01/21/2011, 18:19:24

It would be interesting to learn what material the colored versions of these discs were made of. Besides the common black and dark red, these are available in colors....bright yellow, blue, green, hot pink, and even blue and yellow striped! Curiously, the striped ones are often stuck together. I have seen and own ONE strand of approx. 4mm white disc beads, and I use them in between other beads when white is right.



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Thanks, Rosanna. Great information....."phenolic resin" it is.
Re: Bakelite is one particular type of phenolic resin -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Carl Dreibelbis Post Reply
01/21/2011, 07:53:05



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Re: Bakelite, Etc.
Re: Bakelite is one particular type of phenolic resin -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
01/21/2011, 09:21:16

Hi Rosanna,

Your post says pretty much what I posted on January 12th on this topic—and is therefore confirming of my exposition. Thanks for that!

One comment about "African amber" (or "copal") beads.

Apparently, many of these beads were made in Europe (I'm told Germany), and exported to West and East Africa (I'm told often by French companies). So these were essentially trade beads (this taking place within the Trade Bead Period, as I define it).

Nevertheless, a very few references mention that rods from Europe have been cut into beads in Africa. I do not doubt this is the truth. I don't know when this commenced, or where in particular it happened. I do believe that phenolic beads were passed-off as "amber" for a time, and then as "pressed amber" at a (presumably) later time. Once rods were in the possession of African beadmakers, one might think their actual content could be understood. However, if this stuff was said to be "pressed amber" (or whatever the sellers might call it), the subterfuge could be extended. (Actual pressed amber IS often formed into rods for beadmaking and turning. But this post-dates the use of the centrifuge for pushing hot soft amber into a rod mold.)

I don't know of a way to distinguish between European phenolic fake-amber beads and African-made phenolic fake-amber beads. But I would guess that the former outnumber the latter.

In any event, African bead sellers continue to believe that phenolic plastic (and other plastics) beads are truly "amber"—though I disproved this authoritatively in 1976. Old ideas die a slow painful death.

Some thoughts to consider.

Jamey


Related link: Jamey On Bakelite - January 12th

Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Jamey, based on what I have seen
Re: Re: Bakelite, Etc. -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Carl Dreibelbis Post Reply
01/21/2011, 09:40:16

Hi Jamey,

First off, I was one of those people who believed these phenolic resin beads were REAL amber for at least twenty years until you enlighted me about twelve years ago as to what they actually are.

I have seen thousands of these beads over the last thirty five years and there seems to be standard sizes and shapes which leads me to believe these were factory made, to a set standard, most likely in Europe. As you mentioned as well.

Additionally, I think most of the odd shapes, diamond shapes and beads with carved designs were re-shaped in Africa from European made beads. Also, I think most of the dark colored beads were enhanced with heat in Africa as well.

Carl



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Re: Agreement
Re: Jamey, based on what I have seen -- Carl Dreibelbis Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
01/21/2011, 10:39:25

Hi Carl,

I agree with you.

To some degree, since the beads are cut from molded or extruded rods, that most likely are/were made in standard sizes, there would be a tendency for resulting beads to be (more or less) standard sizes. Length would be slightly more variable, but anyone would probably be after a good-looking product. Making beads from rods facilitates this. the common way to form beads from rods is lathe-turning—which is used by beamakers for all sorts of beads, including wood and bone (such as for prayer beads).

Among the diamond tabular beads, mostly associated with Mauritania (and perhaps Mali), there are two groups. However, largely, both groups are recycled.

The more common plastic beads are made by taking an already-made oblate bead, turning the perforation "up," and cutting the bead on four sides. Plus, of course, the beads are drilled ACROSS their original perforations. This displays the swirly interior of the beads much better than it can be seen when the beads are strung normally. In some presentations, the original perforation is filled with a small bead—often a red cornaline d;Aleppo, for some color contrast.

The second group consists of actual amber beads that have been recycled. I expect many of these were broken beads. In these instances, the original perforation may be seen on the "back" of the beads, and may be longitudinal—though some are conformed like the plastic beads.

Regarding the red or dark beads, it's a toss-up. I do agree that many may have been heated in Africa. It's fairly easy to do, and I have done it myself quite a few times (before any red beads came into the CA marketplace where I lived). However, noting the popularity of "cherry amber" throughout the world, I would be surprised if European makers did not also make red beads for export. There are at least two groups of these beads. Some are red throughout their mass, and some are only superficially red (and are yellow below the surface). I suppose the latter could be accomplished with dyes. (I myself have dyed these beads upon occasion.) But anyone with a dye-pot and some dyes could do this as well.

Have a good one. Jamey



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Resin wash
Re: Re: Agreement -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Carole Morris Post Reply
01/21/2011, 11:54:38

Hi Carl & Jamey

'Superficially red (and yellow below the surface)" - some yellow phenolic beads (and other types of jewellery such as brooch pins and bracelets) were resin-washed to make them darker red. In these cases it's not dye as such but liquid phenolic resin, as on this bead.

Coloured dyes were definitely used on blonde casein beads, giving that amazing cut through effect when the deep carving shows up the lighter material below the dyed surface.

Carole

1_resinwash.jpg (12.8 KB)  


Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Re: Resin Wash
Re: Resin wash -- Carole Morris Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
01/21/2011, 20:19:15

Hi Carol,

What is the red colorant, if not dye? How is the wash cured onto the otherwise finished bead?

I suppose there may be a number of reddening processes or techniques over time. My red beads do not necessarily look like your red beads. But I also can't see inside any intact beads I have either.

Be well. Jamey



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
great explanation, much clearer now, thank you
Re: Bakelite is one particular type of phenolic resin -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: jj Post Reply
01/21/2011, 18:33:19



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Phenolharz
Re: Kathleen, a big strand of dark red phenolic beads -- Carl Dreibelbis Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: TASART Post Reply
01/21/2011, 20:00:29

Here are few found in several areas of the world.....thanks Rosanne for the info!

phenolharz-2.jpg (153.6 KB)  phenolharz-22.jpg (165.2 KB)  


Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
YAHOOEY!
Re: Phenolharz -- TASART Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Carl Dreibelbis Post Reply
01/21/2011, 20:37:29



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
more carved beads
Re: Phenolharz -- TASART Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: homj Post Reply
01/22/2011, 02:56:11

necklaces from Mauritania.

44_1.jpg (141.3 KB)  


Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Thank you! So do the Mauritanians realize the western market for the carved beads....
Re: more carved beads -- homj Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Joyce Post Reply
01/22/2011, 08:19:20

Seems like they would be very successful. Are they currently re-working phenolic beads, and if not, what is the approximate time frame when they did it?



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Of course!
Re: Thank you! So do the Mauritanians realize the western market for the carved beads.... -- Joyce Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Pudgy Post Reply
01/22/2011, 08:48:19

Maures carve lots of small plastic things and there are people selling the stuff in markets.



Modified by Pudgy at Sat, Jan 22, 2011, 08:49:26

Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Beautiful beads Carl.
Re: Kathleen, a big strand of dark red phenolic beads -- Carl Dreibelbis Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: cicada Post Reply
01/23/2011, 11:46:41

Thanks for taking the thirty years to put them together!



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users


Forum     Back