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So beautiful and yet… bead thoughts??
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Posted by: lindabd Post Reply
02/12/2016, 15:34:23

I purchased these in Bali around 1993.
They were sold to me as ancient beads from Java, but they don't look like anything else I've seen, really anywhere. There are thirty of them, very regular in size and shape, hole a bit bigger at one end
There is a broken one in the photo in case that helps.
Incredible aquamarine color - they look like the earth from space.

IMG_6531.JPG (184.3 KB)  IMG_6528.JPG (203.1 KB)  


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perforation photos
Re: So beautiful and yet… bead thoughts?? -- lindabd Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: lindabd Post Reply
02/12/2016, 15:37:47

IMG_6538.JPG (148.6 KB)  1_IMG_6536.JPG (154.9 KB)  


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Re: So beautiful and yet… bead thoughts??
Re: So beautiful and yet… bead thoughts?? -- lindabd Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
02/12/2016, 23:58:44

To me, these appear to have been affected by hydrofluoric acid.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrofluoric_acid



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hmmm. I've got to get me some of that!
Re: Re: So beautiful and yet… bead thoughts?? -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: lindabd Post Reply
02/13/2016, 00:29:54



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Re: hmmm. I've got to get me some of that!
Re: hmmm. I've got to get me some of that! -- lindabd Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: lindabd Post Reply
02/13/2016, 01:43:29

Actually… I've always thought that there was something up with these beads... Now perhaps I can just work with them as very pretty, artfully damaged elements without worrying about them.
Easier now perhaps, as I no longer remember what I paid for them!



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Re: So beautiful and yet� bead thoughts??
Re: So beautiful and yet… bead thoughts?? -- lindabd Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: shinji Post Reply
02/13/2016, 01:47:59

Your beads are ancient glass beads.
And they are one of typical ancient beads found in east Java.
Thier surfaces are natural.
I'm 100% sure.
No doubt at all. Don't worry.

Shinji



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Re: Re: So beautiful and yet� bead thoughts??
Re: Re: So beautiful and yet� bead thoughts?? -- shinji Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: lindabd Post Reply
02/13/2016, 02:47:32

East Java from what time frame Shinji?



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You may be right, Shinji…And, how did you decide this?
Re: Re: So beautiful and yet� bead thoughts?? -- shinji Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
02/13/2016, 02:47:46

I would not doubt that this glass is ancient because this color is sometimes agreed to be from ancient Egypt; ingots of glass were used as ballast for ancient vessels enroute to Southeast Asia. Also sometimes said to have been remade into beads from the Majapahit Kingdom. We can also see this color used for beautiful and popular carved "Pyu" beads from Burma today. -And these are also being offered as "ancient" -but not acid etched...These fables are fractured too.

I have been offered these beat up ovoid blue beads in East Java (where almost all of the Jatim reproductions are being beautifully copied.) But I wonder just how "ancient" they are? Some of them do have variations in devitrification. But most of them appear to have the same patination which -I have found- could be simulated with Hydrofluoric acid. There are plenty of these beads. And they do not sell well. So maybe they are quite old --because there is nearly no reason to make so many of them.

I have witnessed experimentation with hazardous Hydrofluoric acid. And you would be well advised not to try it yourself. But you would learn alot by witnessing the effects of this dangerous chemical on beads.

And I do not know that I am right. But one has to enter into the antiques market with a great deal of skepticism…I am just offering my opinion based upon my very limited experience in the antiques bead market over a forty something year period. So, please share from your experience; I welcome being corrected. After all, we learn more from polite disagreement than from passive compatibility.

Just Fred

P.S. Shinji…Please provide a link to your website and/or Facebook page.



Modified by Frederick II at Sat, Feb 13, 2016, 11:32:49

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Re: You may be right, ShinjiEnd, how did you decide this?
Re: You may be right, Shinji…And, how did you decide this? -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: shinji Post Reply
02/13/2016, 20:55:18

Hi Fred

I'm sorry if you feel my post is unpolite yo you.
I'm not a native English speaker and I'm busy
So I don't want to write down a lot in English.

I just tried to post what "indabd" may wanted to know with minimum words.
My post was just for "indabd".

It's comming from my experience that I believe to be enough to conclude.

I have seen so many glass beads effected by chemical matter artificially in Java also.

Shinji



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Shinji, I agree with you. Java, Indonesia, definitely SE Asia
Re: Re: So beautiful and yet� bead thoughts?? -- shinji Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: hans Post Reply
02/13/2016, 06:13:51

hereby two pictures of beads collected in the 1980's on Java, but possible found in Sumatra.
Probably the beads were made in SE Asia in the 7th-10th century and exported to Malaysia and Indonesian islands. Maybe the deep etched grooves on some beads may indicate the beads are folded in some way?

P1260018.jpg (55.8 KB)  P1240014.jpg (55.3 KB)  


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beads from the same area and period of time
Re: Shinji, I agree with you. Java, Indonesia, definitely SE Asia -- hans Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: hans Post Reply
02/13/2016, 06:21:39

unfortunately not mine

P2230060.jpg (78.6 KB)  


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Re: beads from the same area and period of time
Re: beads from the same area and period of time -- hans Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: lindabd Post Reply
02/13/2016, 08:41:02

Yes, these pictured by Hans are much more familiar to me (I love them..). I think it is the clear color and quality of the glass in the ones I posted that has always puzzled me.
They are definitely folded!
Thank you everyone.



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Yes, definitely authentic
Re: So beautiful and yet… bead thoughts?? -- lindabd Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Will Post Reply
02/13/2016, 12:21:17

Just to add to what Shinji and Hans have said, the structure of the beads makes it clear. If they were fakes they would almost certainly have been wound (or occasionally lapidary worked from bottle glass). Like almost all of the monochrome blue and green beads that were manufactured (like these) between the 5th and 8th centuries in East Java, these are made from rolled pads that were worked while still hot into the required shape. Sometimes they may look as though they're wound because the flow lines of the glass can frequently be lateral as well as lengthwise (see the hexagonal blue bicones that I'll attach). Also, unlike Islamic beads where the junction between the two ends of the pad is frequently apparent, in these Jatim beads the joint is generally hidden by the subsequent shaping.

I like these devitrified beads a lot, too, Linda. Frequently they are polished after they've been dug up, and that's fine also. The majority of excavated Jatim beads show substantial signs of devitrification, probably because of the volcanic soils in which they were buried, and also perhaps because of flaws in the production process (too rapid cooling?). This condition is imitated, as Fred says, by acid treatments, though it's still generally possible to distinguish the difference.

Incidentally, Fred, I don't think there's any likelihood that this would have been Egyptian glass. After all, blue glass, in a wide variety of shades, was manufactured in huge quantities from the 3rd or 4th centuries BCE at numerous Indo-Pacific glass- and bead-making sites in South and Southeast Asia. And as for Egyptian glass being used as ballast in trading ships, I know of no evidence for that at all. There were much cheaper options obviously, and in any case most of the vessels that plied the Southeast Asian trade routes were able to sail with full cargoes from one port to the next, as we know from the many shipwrecks that have been discovered.

Lastly, let's make it clear again that there was no substantial glass-bead making industry in Java in Majapahit times. Majapahit jewellery, as we see from the sculpture of the period, was primarily metal-based (gold, silver, bronze), sometimes with the addition of semi-precious stones (carnelian, other forms of agate, and rock crystal).

Best wishes,

Will

WIll:Jatim175bs.jpg (77.8 KB)  Will:Jatim375c.jpg (45.9 KB)  


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Re: Yes, definitely authentic
Re: Yes, definitely authentic -- Will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: lindabd Post Reply
02/21/2016, 11:11:32

Thank you so much for your very nuanced response, Will - and thank you too Shinji, Hans and Fred.
Will, there are so many threads here to follow. Greatly appreciated.
With regard to the bicone bead photos you have posted with your message - I've been trying to understand them for years as I use them in necklaces. I've read that they are Han period Chinese beads that were imported into Thailand and Indonesia. Is this true? Also, I've always felt that the Ban Chiang beads I've seen were a squatter, heavier shape than the bicones that come out of Indonesia - and wondered at the difference. It occurs to me that you might have something to say about these things.
Many thanks,
Linda



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