Hi Tom,
Yes indeed! Or like 390069051740 which closed 7/19 as an old green Venetian 7L. The wear is even on these, most have new chips (I've seen other images also) and the outer layer of glass uncharacteristically translucent. Layers as well as cuts / grinds haphazard. Weird for sure.

Hi Joyce,

I wish I had looked at this auction for green beads BEFORE I had posted on LBM's question.

I am reasonably sure these green beads are not 'late 1800s 7-layer' Venetian beads.

Their layer number is not clear, and just the fact that there is a group of similar beads (that are so darn WEIRD) is suspicious.

I would have to rethink the "contemporary" issue—but I would still wonder who made them (?).

Jamey

Had LBM reported from the first post that these chevron beads have translucent red layers, much of the dialogue here would have been more or less unnecessary. It is new Chinese beads that routinely have this glass—substituting for the traditional opaque brick-red glass of old Venetian beads or the bright opaque cadmium/selenium red glass that postdates ca. 1920.

Details are important!

Jamey

LBM was looking at the same auction images we all were, and the translucence of the red layer was not so evident in those poor images. Tasart posted closeups of his personal specimen 7/31, when it was shown as evident...

Original message:

"I have seen them before and believe them to be contemporary."

However, your point is taken. Well-taken. We can't expect everything all the time.

Jamey

Dear LBM,

I don't recognize this bead.

I am inclined to disagree with the information posted by the seller. I would not call this a "large" bead, and I don't know how it can be attributed to the "late 1800s." If it's a Venetian bead (a prospect I am not convinced is true), it is more likely an early 20th C. bead.

The features that make it look odd are that the white layers are unusually thick, allowing the red and blue layers below to remain unmolded/unstarry. I have documented a few Venetian chevron beads that are similar. In addition, as Joyce noted, the color of the external glass appears to be nonstandard. The tone is grayish and more translucent than usual. Then, the shape of the bead is unexpected. It's sloppy and inconsistent, in terms of providing a standard rounded form.

Can you say where you have seen similar beads, and what it is that suggests they might be contemporary? That would be interesting information.

Unless the bead can be attributed to some non-Venetian industry, I would be more inclined to suspect it IS Venetian, but not from any of the usual manufacturers, such as Moretti or the Conterie (nor Costantini, as far as I know).

Be well. Jamey

I believe these are Chinese, possibly attempts that never made it, the colors are very translucent to transparent, they really look and feel "chinese" in person, also I had contacted the seller personally (prior to these threads), and she pulled the green Chevron auction and regrets any mistakes, she will relist them strung on necklaces with a better idea of what they are.

Hi Jamey, if you look at the quick photos I just shot, the colored layers are very translucent, the Red is just wrong to be Venetian. The Green beads of this type are the same but the inner 2 layers have "crossed over" at points giving a 7 layer look, they are all technically 6 layers. It also appears as if they were dragged through the dirt to give that "antique" look. Oh and the perforations have been drilled rather than pulled.

My posting from Sept 2008.

http://beadcollector.net/cgi-bin/anyboard.cgi?fvp=%2Fopenforum%2F&tK=new+breed&yVz=yTz&aO=1&hKz=1&hIz=600&hJz=0&cmd=find&by=&xcfgfs=tK-wT-yVz-aO-hKz

Jamey & Thomas,
Can you please provide evidence that any of the Chinese beads described here on the forum & elsewhere have been "drilled"???. I have seen references to new chevrons being drilled numerous times.
Thanks, Rick

the hole had to get there somehow. I'm reminded of the image Russ provided for the Chinese Chevrons 2007 article of the examples from the show room that did not yet have holes....

Thanks Rick, for posting this reminder from last year. They appear to be the very same "litter"! I'd like to know more about these, but it may not happen...Speculation will leave big vacant spots in the complete story.

This is your image from last year, included on the link you provided today. I'm looking at the upper left and lower left beads and see the perf does not relate to the "concentricity" of the layer formation, even though it is funky, at all. That makes me conclude that the hole got there after the cane was drawn. Others in your image appear to have drawn holes!

Again, weird beads. I think someone put some effort into making beads from new cane to appear old. Wrong glass. New beads trying to look primitive. My guess is Chinese cane finished and manipulated by some entrepreneur in another country, like the U.S. or Africa.

A major collector was recently sent images of similar beads for sale. The collector hadn't seen them before but asked for more opinions. The consensus was that they are new.

Interesting to note...places these are turning up are Minnesota, Ohio, Colorado. Any seen with vendors in LA, AZ or NY? We might be able to "figger" this out!

Hole drilling is pretty straightforward. A drilled hole will be ROUND in cross section, very round, Second the hole will be matte finish in the interior, not shiny as it would be if formed hot during the cane making process. Frequently the hole will show circular signs of it's abrasive origin along its length and also as it is difficult to center the hole in the pattern well, the hole will be off center. There are many examples of Italian drilled cane which have shown up across the years. #'s 573 and 578 in Picard's chevron book appear to be drilled to me with the extra clue being that the holes violate the first white pattern layer. I saw not a few drilled Italian specimens during the early 90's when the chevron market here in the US was exploding and drilling large chunks of milli cane and grinding them into beads generated unusual chevron type beads for a market which was obsessed with finding odd and unique chevron beads. Lastly these drilled specimens will show little or no string wear offering a clue to their recent origin. Grinding the bead to look old and distressing the bead with pecks or chips will not effect the condition of the hole surface in the bead's interior.
Modern drilling technique involves a straight rotary drill which leaves a cylindrical hole. Even ultrasonic drills while they don't leave the rotary marks in the hole leave a matte finish due to the abrasives used and the hole will be straight and round. Primitive hole drilling was done from each end and mostly with cone shaped drilling mandrels which leave behind holes with larger openings at the ends than the middle and these holes also are often off center to one another where they meet at the center of the bead. Specimens of this type of drilling abound from Central and South America in pre contact beads, and some post contact beads as well. Virtually all of the older " Tibetan" turquoise beads I've seen and collected from 20 and plus years back are drilled from both ends as are all the old dzi's. All the new world double drilled beads I've seen have much steeper cone shape holes than those from the far east. But then I've only seen several thousands of beads of the many millions out there. There will always show up specimens which run contrary to the general rules. Keep in mind- there will always be someone who will figure out a way or do something differently than others.

Conical or biconical perforations result (as said) from the use of bits that tend to be conical themselves. However, this effect is exacerbated by "drill wobble"—the tendency for a drill to be held insecurely, and to move laterally while it's spinning. This has been more likely to occur in ancient times than modern, and at primitive industries—such as in pre-Columbian North and South America, and Africa.

India pioneered the use of the diamond bit about 2,000 years ago. Consequently, their beads are potentially much better made than many others. Nevertheless, there are also plenty of cranked-out poorly made Indian beads, with perforations that are sloppy, eccentric, and that meet in the middle at an angle.

JDA.

unless....the beads have been re-heated after being drilled, these beads actually have the look and feel of having been reheated, this could make a round drill hole go out of round. Just an opinion.

Not that it pertains to these beads, nor many glass beads in particular, but other beads made from soft materials have off-round perforations due to string abrasion. And even harder materials (if worn over a long time) can share this feature.

Old amber beads from certain kinds of necklaces develop both tear-shaped and "key-hole" or slotted perforations. About thirty years ago, Peter Francis and I had some dialogue about this in The Bead Journal. He maintained the beads were drilled this way on purpose, "'to make them hang correctly in a circle.' My reply essentially said that the wedge shape of the beads made them tend to form a close-together ring; but that if they were loose enough to turn (spin or rotate), or were forced toward the thin edge and abraded (depending on where in the necklace the beads were situated)—and that these actions altered the shapes of the perforations.

I am confident I am correct. As a career bead-stringer, I had and have rather more practical experience with these issues than did Peter.

Any drilled bead that is poorly worked, in a certain way, could conceivably have an eccentric perforation. Imagine, the driller began the perforation, stopped, and began again adjacent to the first false-start. The aperture would not be circular. Any number of scenarios may be possible.

Jamey

Hi Rick,

As someone who has studied glass-beadmaking for twenty-nine years, I am more than familiar with the look of a drilled perforation. The lapidary-working of glass is such an unusual thing (though practiced by many "primitive" industries), that this factor calls attention to itself.

The best and easiest proof that the Chinese were drilling their rosetta beads for the first three or four years is that: 1) we could buy undrilled specimens—some of which I have shown here in the recent past; and 2) although the majority of Chinese rosetta beads were drilled longitudinally, it is not so uncommon to find strands of beads that were drilled ACROSS their girth—that therefore have a perforation that could not result from forming a hollow gather. These beads were clearly drilled AFTER the canes had been cold-divided, ground-down to spherical shapes (for the most part)—and then drilled in whatever direction was chosen. The imperforate specimens are essentially like "marbles."

Jamey

All of your info will make it a bit easier to identify beads that have been drilled....great discussion...thanks again!