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Help please: Venetian or...
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Posted by: karavanserai Post Reply
10/08/2023, 10:05:38

I never had much opportunity to handle Venetian beads and today I saw this strand with -to me- 2 types of unusual beads:
- Round “Baule face” beads, which I’ve only known as tabulars/ flat face side. The only possible round one I found is one Rosanna showed in http://beadcollector.net/cgi-bin/anyboard.cgi?fvp=/openforum/&cmd=get&cG=63331303235303&zu=36333130323530&v=2&gV=0&p=
Unless the strand on the front page of Picard’s Volume III also includes some round ones.

- Eyebeads (double circles) that remind me of Islamic beads – they almost look like raised eyes, but they are not. The only ‘lookalikes’ I could find was in the Picard’s Volume IV on page 18 , 7th strand from above with the following differences: ‘mine’ only have 3 eyes per bead, are not as round and have larger flat sides.

Too good to be true, was my first reaction and thought Indonesian, but I never handled Indonesian “Venetian trade beads” before. The comparison I found in the link below made me decide to look at them more properly.
http://beadcollector.net/cgi-bin/anyboard.cgi?fvp=/openforum/&cmd=get&cG=33938393430333&zu=33393839333839&v=2&gV=0&p=

sizes: diameter 14 -15 mm, length 10- 11mm
holes: 2-3mm, similar to my tabular Venetian “Baule face” beads
cut: straight, definitely drawn beads
colour: the yellow in the “Baule face” is similar to the tabular Venetian “Baule face” beads I have (see later picture).

I am moving now more towards Venetian, or is this really too good to be true?
Please help me out! Thank you.

If anyone has more pictures comparing Venetian trade beads with Indonesian “trade beads”, it would be great to be able to see them. Thank you.

image

IMG_2635(1).jpg (126.9 KB)  IMG_2632(1).jpg (147.3 KB)  
martine
Related link: http://beadcollector.net/cgi-bin/anyboard.cgi?fvp=/openforum/&cmd=get&cG=63331303235303&zu=36333130323530&v=2&gV=0&p=
Modified by karavanserai at Mon, Oct 09, 2023, 05:28:25

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More pics
Re: Help please: Venetian or... -- karavanserai Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: karavanserai Post Reply
10/08/2023, 10:06:38

IMG_2636(1).jpg (100.7 KB)  IMG_2637(1).jpg (113.6 KB)  
martine

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"Baule face" vs "Baule face"
Re: Help please: Venetian or... -- karavanserai Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: karavanserai Post Reply
10/08/2023, 10:08:00

IMG_2638(1).jpg (105.7 KB)  IMG_2639(1).jpg (96.6 KB)  
martine

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Change of heart
Re: Help please: Venetian or... -- karavanserai Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: karavanserai Post Reply
10/10/2023, 03:35:27

Now in broad daylight, using a magnifying glass I noticed the following

- the “Baule face” beads are less weathered than the eye beads: different production source or just newer beads?

- on some of the eye beads there is a partly lightly shining meridian, nothing like prossers. Is it a gripping tool that left this mark rather than the marks of a mould. See pics.

Present conclusion
- eye beads not Venetian. The white/black on Venetian beads is more intense. If only I could break up the strand (it is not mine) to check the openings more closely.
- “Baule face” beads might be Venetian. The yellow is so so close to the real thing . The holes are 1mm smaller than the eye beads. But do round "Baule face" beads exist?

What do you think?

IMG_2644(1).jpg (78.9 KB)  1_IMG_2648.jpg (67.5 KB)  
martine

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Some help, maybe
Re: Help please: Venetian or... -- karavanserai Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
10/10/2023, 21:33:35

Martine,
My initial reaction is that the Baule face beads on this strand are copies, from Indonesia. The color of the yellow trailing seems off, but color is hard to tell from photos and monitors vary. However both of these bead designs on this strand have the rough appearance around the holes that I see with some Indonesian beads. Also as you pointed out, the Venetian version of this bead is tabular, although usually quite a thick tabular. But not round.

I have only one Venetian Baule face bead in my collection. I'm posting pictures of it so you can see the different aspects. You can see that this bead has a lot of irregular wear, including a loss of a lot of the yellow trailing. I'm sure there are other beads in better condition, so hopefully someone will post some pics for you...

Also, a couple of years ago another bead pal was trying to figure out if an entire strand of Baule face beads was original Venetian or copies. Very hard to tell from the photos. Now that a second strand of "identical" Baule face beads has appeared, I am even more sure that copies are being made. I also have some very poor copies of this design which is more evidence that this design is actively being copied. The copies are so poor that no one would mistake them for antiques.

Baule1.jpg (40.7 KB)  Baule2.jpg (40.8 KB)  


Modified by Rosanna at Tue, Oct 10, 2023, 21:42:45

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More photos
Re: Some help, maybe -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
10/10/2023, 21:34:27

Baule3.jpg (33.5 KB)  Baule4.jpg (30.7 KB)  


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Last photo
Re: Some help, maybe -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
10/10/2023, 21:35:17

Baule5.jpg (39.0 KB)  


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Another Baule face bead on Etsy
Re: Some help, maybe -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
10/10/2023, 22:20:53



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And I bought to bead for comparison. To be continued.
Re: Another Baule face bead on Etsy -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: karavanserai Post Reply
10/12/2023, 02:37:33

martine

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Pictures comparison
Re: And I bought to bead for comparison. To be continued. -- karavanserai Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: karavanserai Post Reply
10/20/2023, 04:40:44

I received the Venetian Baule face bead (top solo bead), and it looks exactly the same make as my others.

Venetian_Baule_face_7aa_bovenste_Kika's_bead_33€.jpg (184.5 KB)  Venetian_Baule_face_7aaa_bovenste_Kika's_bead_33€.jpg (183.2 KB)  
martine

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Thank you Rosanna
Re: Some help, maybe -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: karavanserai Post Reply
10/11/2023, 18:15:41

This is really helpful. Thank you. Now I understand better what the 'rough'part around the hole means. I understood from Hendrik that this large cut is also typical for Indonesian beads.
Joyce mentioned that round Venetians were made.
I will have to re-examine the"Baule" beads I have, I thought they were genuine Venetian tabulars since I bought them from trustful sources.
They are the ones at the bottom of the strand.
Again, I learned a lot :-). Thank you!

IMG_2653(1).jpg (154.9 KB)  
martine

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More help from Joyce
Re: Help please: Venetian or... -- karavanserai Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
10/15/2023, 12:35:09

Joyce sent me some pix of her Baule face beads - Venetian - showing a flattened tabular version and a more rounded version.

JoyceBaule1.jpg (58.2 KB)  JoyceBaule2.jpg (41.5 KB)  


Modified by Rosanna at Sun, Oct 15, 2023, 12:35:33

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Additional pic
Re: More help from Joyce -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
10/15/2023, 12:36:06

JoyceBaule3.jpg (72.0 KB)  


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Re: More help from Joyce
Re: More help from Joyce -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: karavanserai Post Reply
10/16/2023, 04:39:53

Thank you, my Venetians look like the flattened one. Great to see the round one. The only one I ever saw!

martine

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