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Could someone please help me w/ these Cut Blues, formerly "Russian Blues"?
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Posted by: SkyStone Post Reply
10/20/2022, 08:42:19

Hi everyone!

Could someone please help me w/ these Cut Blues, formerly "Russian Blue Beads"?

I recently bouth these as "Mid to late 1800s" "Antique Russian Blue Glass Beads" but now realize some/(many?) of the beads on the strand may be relatively new, tumbled Taiwanese beads. In reality the beads are a duller matt finish than the picture shows. They're roughly 8mm long.

Any thoughts? Any help is appreciated.

Thanks!

Mary

P.S. I could take additional pictures if needed.

27_inch_Cut_Blue_aka_Russian_Blue_Beads_001.jpg (172.6 KB)  


Modified by SkyStone at Thu, Oct 20, 2022, 13:05:49

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Re: "Russian Blues"
Re: Could someone please help me w/ these Cut Blues, formerly "Russian Blues"? -- SkyStone Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
10/20/2022, 17:32:11

Hello Mary,

The name "Russian" is appended to these beads when they come from a NW North American context—having been 19th C. trade beads. I always place the name in quotes, because the beads are Bohemian, and not "made in Russia," nor for them nor from them.

The access to old trade beads from West Africa commenced en-masse in 1972, and has prevailed ever since then. But late in that time, Bohemian faceted beads began to be included. Perhaps because they were popularized by the collecting books of that time (the late 1980s and later). These African-context beads are also represented as "Russian" beads, as a selling factor and a convenient name.

Although many of these beads, from West Africa, are physically compromised, they can also be in such good condition that they strongly resemble the NW NA beads. This is what you apparently have.

Regarding imitations or reproductions of these beads—there are some. The Czechs have made similar-appearing beads, though the manufacture is different, and the colors are different (mostly being opaque powder-blue). I am not aware that any "tumbled Taiwan" beads are circulating. But I'd like to see whatever may be touted as this. There are copies of these beads, that derive from German canes that were cut in México. These have been reported and characterized, beginning from the time they were first noticed (over twenty years ago). The company that made them was named La Paloma. I had cause to discuss this on Facebook, just a few days ago. So I can show their beads.

Jamey

559_eh_paloma_bds_90s.jpg (90.2 KB)  707_eh_paloma_bds_90s.jpg (91.3 KB)  


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Re: Re: "Russian Blues"
Re: Re: "Russian Blues" -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: SkyStone Post Reply
10/21/2022, 08:26:52


Hi Jamey, thanks so much for getting back to me.

I was aware of the controversy concerning the name "Russian Blue"
in association w/ these types of beads but wasn't sure if mine were
African or the tumbled Taiwanese beads I mentioned.

I found the so-called Tiwanese bead mentioned on this site that
you are likely aware of.

http://www.thebeadsite.com/bbfk-02.html it's the 3rd bead down.

So the desirable, truly antique faceted Bohemian blue bead first
appeared when, is it about 1820-90? I'd really love to see some high
resolution pictures of them, I'll bet you're the perfect person to ask. :-)

The La Paloma beads in the pic are very pretty, I love the indigo/cobalt blue color. They look longer than the Bohemian beads though.
I'm surprised decent copies of the antique beads are not widely available since they're so popular. I'd buy decent copies if I could find them.

Not that I can afford it but, where would I find examples of the original faceted Bohemian blue beads for sale?

I've included two pics of a vintage Guatemalan necklace that have a few beads of this type.

Again, thank you for you help,

Mary

Guatemalan_Bead_Coin_Necklace_close_up_Bohemian_Blue_Bead_smaller_file_2.JPG (130.0 KB)  Guatemalan_Bead_Coin_Necklace_close_up_Bohemian_Blue_Bead_smallest_file_5.JPG (211.7 KB)  

Related link: http://www.thebeadsite.com/bbfk-02.html

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Re: Re: Re: "Russian Blues"
Re: Re: Re: "Russian Blues" -- SkyStone Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
10/21/2022, 13:44:06

Hello Mary,

I don't know that I have ever seen the Taiwan beads, and I know nothing about them. Also, I don't know Peter's source for the date range of the original beads—but I think it is reasonable.

After Peter's death, when I catalogued and appraised his collection, so that it could be donated to The Bead Museum, I do not recall coming across any "Russian"-type beads, nor the length of prepared tube he shows.

As it happens, I have a portion of an important bead collection from the Northwest, that includes several strands of "Russian" beads. These have been part of the estate sales I have managed at Tucson, until 2020. The asking price for one of the "Russian" necklaces is around $2,000. However, the owner has allowed me to cut the prices, and I am offering these for around $1,000.

(Selling beads is not really my job. I have done this at Tucson as a service to clients, whose collections I have appraised, when they are ready to dispose of beads, and when they do not want to perform the selling tasks themselves. I am not in the bead business, but rather am in the arena of bead study and education.)

I can, of course, make close photos of "Russian" beads at any time, having documented them on several occasions, and from my collections. I will show a photo I posted at my Facebook Group about two weeks ago, that is the NW collection. Only a few of these strands are available now.

299992529_3040944632717310_705507002058053876_n.jpg (97.1 KB)  


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Re: Re: Re: Re: "Russian Blues"
Re: Re: Re: Re: "Russian Blues" -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: SkyStone Post Reply
10/22/2022, 07:18:38


Thank you for the picture and response Jamey.


I would dearly love to own some of those beads, they make my heart
go pitter patter, but I'm afraid $1,000 is out of reach for me right now.

You wrote, "I can, of course, make close photos of "Russian" beads
at any time"

Ooooh YES! Please, please, please!

I have thousands of pictures of beads and jewelry on my hard drive
that I either own, or would love to own, that I revisted daily and
drool over.

I'm still catching up with your messages and will respond soon.
Oh, btw, I sent you a private message, did you happen to see it?

Thanks so much,

Mary

P.S. Just for fun, and your possible amusement, I'm enclosing a couple of pictures of necklace w/ especially lovely, (imho), beads that I don't happen to own. *sigh*

The necklace w/ "Russian Trade Beads" claims to be authentic but of
course I would have no way of knowing for sure.

Screenshot_2022-07-17_at_03-38-48_Revista_Galería_No._45_Joyería_guatemalteca_001_CROSS.jpg (252.2 KB)  White_Milk_Glass_Russian_Trade_Bead_Necklaces_small_file_1.jpg (230.6 KB)  


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Re: Could someone please help me w/ these Cut Blues, formerly "Russian Blues"?
Re: Could someone please help me w/ these Cut Blues, formerly "Russian Blues"? -- SkyStone Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: JP Post Reply
10/21/2022, 22:00:54

I have not yet heard of Taiwanese tumbled "Russian blue" but really you don't have to be an expert to see that these beads are old Bohemian beads and not newly made.
There is an educative exhibit on Bohemian facetted beads, mostly on this type of beads including the newer Czech and Mexican made.
http://picardbeads.com/exhibit11.html
JP



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Re: Re: Could someone please help me w/ these Cut Blues, formerly "Russian Blues"?
Re: Re: Could someone please help me w/ these Cut Blues, formerly "Russian Blues"? -- JP Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: SkyStone Post Reply
10/22/2022, 06:54:40


Thanks JP, I'll have a look at that page.

I bought the strand from Picards so I suppose, due to the fact
that you reference them, that I shouldn't question their authenticity.

But I wondered, after buying them, why would Bohemian beads be strung
on raffia which comes from the palms grown in Africa and that African beads are strung on.

The page you referenced seems to address that.

Again, thank you so much for your input!

Mary



Modified by SkyStone at Sun, Oct 23, 2022, 06:31:10

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Re: Re: Re: Could someone please help me w/ these Cut Blues, formerly "Russian Blues"?
Re: Re: Re: Could someone please help me w/ these Cut Blues, formerly "Russian Blues"? -- SkyStone Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Mel H Post Reply
10/25/2022, 18:58:35

Hi Mary, in my experience some of the faceted Bohemian beads were used in the African trade so they show up on raffia sometimes. But the ones traded in the Pacific NW are usually on a simple cotton thread, sinew, horsehair, or modern collections strung on fishing line. People wander the banks of the Columbia River to this day gathering them, so I see a lot of them on fishing line. I live in Washington and find them semi-frequently, lucky me!

It seems to me that the African-traded beads are inferior in color and glass quality to those from the PNW, I don't know why. You get much more of a deep, indigo blue/purple with the American beads for some reason.

I think yours are probably from the African trade and so are the powder blue ones that were mentioned, which are also commonly found on raffia.



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Re: Re: Re: Re: Could someone please help me w/ these Cut Blues, formerly "Russian Blues"?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Could someone please help me w/ these Cut Blues, formerly "Russian Blues"? -- Mel H Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: JP Post Reply
10/25/2022, 22:26:06

Beads in the African trade are often strung on raffia but also come strung on some kind of indigenous cotton.
These facetted " Russian blue" were made likely for almost a couple of hundred years.
Many workshops and turnover workers were involved and that contributed to a wide panoply of different shapes, sizes, colors and quality in the glass.
The beads can be dull from wearing or rough from excavation or from being buried with people like the ones found in Ghana, or they can look almost pristine like those found in the Port Harcourt area in Nigeria.
The beads in the exhibit show a large variety of them, all found in the African trade.
From lower to exquisite quality and from common to rare specimens.
JP



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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Could someone please help me w/ these Cut Blues, formerly "Russian Blues"?
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Could someone please help me w/ these Cut Blues, formerly "Russian Blues"? -- JP Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Mel H Post Reply
10/26/2022, 18:37:51

Thank you for the insight and reminder about the exhibit, JP. I'd forgotten how much info was available there. That photo always makes me drool :)



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The BCN site search feature: search Russian Blues
Re: Could someone please help me w/ these Cut Blues, formerly "Russian Blues"? -- SkyStone Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Joyce Post Reply
10/30/2022, 10:33:10

I used the site search going back 8000 days. There is a vast amount of material in the BCN archive , with some great photos too. Please utilize this feature, it’s a great resource.

And Picard volume 5: “Russian Blues, Faceted and Fancy Beads from the West African Trade” is still available from the Picard site. Their site is a great resource too!



Modified by Joyce at Sun, Oct 30, 2022, 10:34:38

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