Any info would be welcomed...thanks, Rick

Looks modern Chinese to me, their Chevrons need a little more refinement so they are pretty easy to pick out.

Danny

Unless an Indian bead maker started to use optic molds, these are not Indian. They are not the classic (is that the right word?)Indian style made with bundled strips of glass.

This is not to say that someone in India or Indonesia hasn't started to use the Italian style molds to create the star patterns on each layer of glass. But I've not seen them from any of the Indian vendors who are always sending me pictures and samples.

Hi Russ,

I have seen a photo of one strand of "Indonesian chevron beads," but the distributor no longer had any for sale. As I am going to Java in a short time, one of my goals is to see if I can find any chevron beads that I can be sure are not European, Indian, nor Chinese. We'll see what happens.

Until I have them in my hands, I cannot be sure how there were made. But, as sure as one can be about anything, so far, no Indian beadmakers have composed chevron or chevron-like beads from molded canes. They are all from the well-known "hot-strip" method.

Jamey

Something that I notice in many (not all) new chinese chevrons is that the points of the star in the outermost star-molded white layer have sometimes wilted before the outer layer of blue glass was applied, leaving a 'cowlick' of curved white glass at the tip of each star point. this effect is visible in the attached photo from Joyce's article on Chinese chevrons (available in the Articles section of this site). I speculate it has something to do with the a delay in the fabrication process that causes the white layer to wait before the blue is applied. some of the beads have cowlicks that are pinwheeled, all the tips folding over in the same direction, perhaps indicating the glass worker spun the pontil to keep the gather symmetrical while waiting to carry out the next step?

The chevron under consideration also has cowlicks. That's certainly not conclusive, but one more indicator to consider. diplocase

Hi DP,

My ideas about this were published in the two articles I composed in 1982 and '83, on rosetta beads, describing the different variations and effects I had documented at that time, and how/why I believe they happened.

Most of these effects are caused by actual physical manipulation. (Not from things like "spinning the gather.") The temperature of the glass (and therefore it malleability) makes a big difference, the timing of the layering (and the state of that glass), the position of the gather during the next molding, and—most importantly—how the gather is marvered or otherwise manipulated.

Jamey

blues & greens....they have had me perplexed since their arrival.

you wrote: "they have had me perplexed since their arrival."
It would be helpful to all concerned to know a history from your point of view, where were they reported to come from when you bought/received them? As much info as you can supply is always good in helping others in attempting to figure something like this out. Thanks, Thomas

They were sold to the person I bought them from, from another vendor at a show back east & he was told they were old. That is all the info the seller gave me. He told me he does not know old beads.

Hi Rick,

The cost of beads can be a consideration. Very few people are going to give away significant beads for almost no money. Of course, we also have to contend with the idea that many people will think beads are more rare and valuable than is objectively the case; and some people just make mistakes, or don't care.

So, were these expensive beads, or average-to-cheap?

By the way, the external color of some of your beads is not "green." When you have a translucent color that is neither green nor blue, it's best to call it "teal." This is a bluish-green or a greenish-blue, sometimes dark or saturated in tone.

Jamey

Teal it is! Thanks for the clarification.
Cost??? Just as you do not give values on this forum, cost is relitive to what a person is willing to pay for an item they want. I have paid a very small amount for very valuable beads & I have spent BIG dollars on beads that may be worth less, because I wanted them. Were thay a good investment or not, is not in question. Where they are from, & are they brand new, I feel will be revealed as time goes on. I feel that as an addition to my collection, I paid a fair amount.
In my opinion, they are new beads. I also think those that go to Tucson, will find more information as was the case with the new Chinese chevrons that were as much of a mystery a couple years ago.
Thanks to you all for your comments & I hope we all know more soon.

One to watch... Ebay Item number: 180295298021
"LARGE SIX LAYER ANTIQUE CHEVRON TRADE BEADS".

Clearly, the auction is mistaken. However, the suggestion of an African origin is curious.

It occurs to me, could these be from the new beads made by Cedi in Kroboland?

JDA.

I believe that Art would have revealed that in his reply post to this subject. "New Breed, my read"
They sure don't appear to be powderglass to me.

http://beadcollector.net/cgi-bin/anyboard.cgi?fvp=/openforum/&cmd=get&cG=5373139383&zu=3537303537&v=2&gV=0&p=

I'm confused..What is the solution to the mystery???

Really, the auction just tells me that someone else has some too.

Hello Folks,
I'm out in Indiana on my way to the Eastern Primitive Rendezvous for ten days. Rick sent me pics of these beads and here's my response to him on them. I believe them to be new copies for sure, origin unknown.......

Hi Rick
The beads are very intriguing. they show some characteristics of old sevens yet have some which aren't consistent to me. The red layers are poorly molded on all of them which is inconsistent with virtually all the Italian chevrons. The last white layer is uneven which is another big flag to me about their probable non Italian origin. I see in the red layers some color characteristics which are also not typical. From the pictures the red looks lighter at the core edge and darker at the outside. This is typical of a striking selenium red and not of the copper hematinone red used by the Italians. The largest bead with very mangled interior is a pretty crude example and again not consistent with even the funkiest of old sevens. I was amazed by the size when I got to the last pictures with your hand for scale. I'd gotten the impression they were much smaller. (I'm pretty visual in my thinking and don't think in millimeters well ) I find their size and finish to be quite consistent which speaks recent to me and the dings on the end of one look quite recent. The gathering and molding technique is poor and this may be an attempt to appear old. I'd like to see them up close to evaluate the red well. One last observation is that the core color appears to be the same as the outer layer which is definitely inconsistent with all the old sevens I've seen. Also the innermost white layer appears to be other than twelve points,(fewer) but I can't be sure due to the gathering technique. Taking all this into account in the context of the generally accepted genesis of Italian chevrons and the production values of historical chevrons from earliest to present I'd say that you may be in possession of leading edge examples of an attempt to replicate the old sevens and put them into the collector stream. Maybe these are from some Indonesian glass works . If they are from China they violate the skill level already demonstrated by their glass makers. Still if an attempt to fake the old sevens is their goal they might change their technique. The red still bugs me as the Chinese have the copper red down they would use it to make their fakes better . This makes me think that they would have another source.
The passion for collecting old beads and the price folks are willing to pay for same will only bring on more and more attempts to cash in on the market with counterfeits.

Best to you all, Art

I think these are new but I don't think they are from the same makers of the Chinese beads we've posted in these forums in the past. They have the use of the optic mold down much better than these beads. They could be from another Chinese factory but have not had much exposure before.

The colors remind me of Indonesian or Java bead materials but I've not seen these beads from those sources.....

It was announced at one time that drawn, molded chevrons were being produced around 2005. Never saw any more mention of this or examples. The teal color looks like the teal of some glass beads from Indonesia.

Cedi just learned to make drawn chevron beads a few months ago. It's not that I'm married to this idea, but it is a not-unreasonable idea that I think ought to be considered. What if no one suggested it?

LOTS of people make and have made chevron beads in recent years.

But I think you're right. Sooner or later we will know the answer.

I'll report what I find in Indonesia when I return. Right now, I'm having a deuce of a time just finding out where the drawn-glass-beadmakers are in Java....

Jamey

Bought about a year ago, verified by Max of Bead Bros. as Indonesian. Without a doubt of fused molded cane...

The 2005 date was claimed by Evelyn in her chevron article on the bead database for the small chevron beads she showed repped as Indonesian.

Hi Joyce,

Thanks for jogging my memory. The relationship between a bead such as this and an actual rosetta bead is tenuous. We know that Indonesians make and have made layered canes for millefiori work—and furoca beads depend upon this, and are a non-millefiori use of those canes. The resulting bead, because it has been ground-down, has a certain similarity to a chevron bead, because chevron beads are also ground-down. But any lampwork bead industry could make a furoca bead (assuming it has the canes to fuse together); but most of them could not or would not make conventional rosetta/chevron beads—because this is more easily accomplished at a furnace, on a larger scale of production.

At Jombang, Java, where lampwork is pursued, the beadmakers have access to canes, because these canes are the basis of their lampwork. Plain ones are wound into beads, and also used for trailing. Fancier canes are used for additional decorations. But none of these canes (as far as anyone knows) have a molded starry construction, and none are longitudinally perforated, so that they have the potential to become conventional star or chevron beads.

On our quest to find the place where drawn beads are made, in Java, we are not going to Jombang—because seeing a lampworking industry does not facilitate our goal. If chevron beads are made in Java, it seems likely it would be elsewhere. And, for sure, someone knows how to make drawn beads, because the realistic reproductions of jatim and stuff like repro-Indo-Pacific beads and gold-glass beads all demand to be made from perforated drawn canes.

Jamey

As of now, I think it is very likely we will, in fact, pass through Jombang to view the lampbead industries there. This is a new and unexpected wrinkle in the plans that are developing. I am actually excited to be there, because I am still curious to know how it happened that lampwork has been pursued here. (I suspect it was initiated based on an Indian industry, but quickly evolved into its own game.)

Of course, our primary goal still remains to find the people who make drawn beads and realistic reproductions of old jatim.

Jamey

These are the only Chevrons in my collection that I have direct confirmation from the seller that were made in Central Java from a maker that is no longer alive. It was reported that when he died, the making of the bead also stopped because he was the one in the factory making the beads.

It may have been the very genesis of Java chevron bead making.