I saw a lot of ancient Chinese art in my days as an art history major, and I never saw anything as delightfully whimsical as these two dog figures! LOVE THEM! Thanks for expanding my view.

Oh! thanks to much! There are so nice! I send to you a glass tube bead that seems your pic.

It's impossible whether they may be recent copies. I acquired these beads with a specialist of the antique and archaic Chinese art and specially archaic jades, they were quite evaluated by several experts and I acquired them in Beijing, eight or ten years ago, but not to the market!

Here are two more pics: one of the same one, lit from below.
The other one is a broken one.

Both have a similar design to yours, but not exact matches.

Yes, there are similar. Mine is more worn out, maybe.
Do you have seen the Han dynasty bead that I posted, few days ago? this one is fantastic too!!

this bead doesn't appear correct......but that is only and opinion

Hi Kika, I am noticing that these beads tend to be translucent, and see that some of the photo examples show this. Can you shine a light through your bead(s) and see how it looks/ how the hole looks? Thanks!

Info from the Miho Museum Kyoto, Japan/ Photo from Flicker. https://www.flickr.com/photos/antiquitiesproject/4640378735/

Hi Frederick
I saw and found many beads of searches in Africa and the look is very different from one to another: the aspect is different according to the localization and especially according to the ground, when it is acid, the beads have an another aspect, very different. For me too, it is not a copy.
There is another bead from search in PINYAO. The aspect is different.

I’m very hesitant about disagreeing with Fred because I know how good he is at sniffing out fakes (and at much else besides, of course). But I had a little time this afternoon and found myself looking at the pics of this bead several times before making up my mind. That’s to say - as much as it ever makes itself up!

One of the problems is that most of us have very little experience with Warring States glass beads - as opposed to the ones with composite or clay cores which are much more common. Personally, I’ve only had the chance to handle them a few times, mainly in museums wearing cotton gloves. But I do know the acid-finished fakes of East Java intimately, and as I looked at Kika’s photos closely, her bead seemed substantially different. The wear at individual spots - the white of the heart-shaped leaves, the concentric lines at the ends with the indentation at the top of the bead on the left side of the first photo, the rims of the air bubbles and the crack lines - all of this looks absolutely typical to me.

It’s worth checking the beads that Pipane showed on this forum several years ago; the surfaces of several of them are quite similar. And when we compare it to the hundred odd pages of Warring States beads in Simon Kwan’s Early Chinese Glass, we can see that the kind of dull, even surface on Kika’s bead is absolutely typical of the wear on most very good Warring States glass.

Also I checked out a few Chinese online sites. Ali Baba and Ali Express, for instance, have a lot of fake Warring States beads listed, frequently at high prices, but none of the ones that I found had anything like the quality of Kika’s.

It all adds up. I could be wrong. I often am. I think I would be sure immediately if I had it between my fingers.

Incidentally, I think the heart motif is probably more probably a leaf. It could be both, of course, but I don’t know of heart symbolism in China anything like as early as this. There are two almost identical beads on page 179 of Kwan’s book (though they’re not in as good condtion). Kwan describes the leaves as a persimmon calyx, which they certainly resemble. For the last thousand years or so (and possibly before) the persimmon has been a symbol of happiness in Chinese art.

There it is. I’ll attach a photo of the most beautiful Warring States bead I’ve actually touched - or rather, it touched me when I got the chance to examine it in Japan. They really are amazing beads; I’ve always marveled at the Phoenician stratified eye beads which preceded these, but the Warring States beads at their best outdo them in their brilliant precision.

Cheers,

Will

There needs to be a chemical analysis of the glass to be certain. And there are excellent copyists who could fool the eye.

Obviously, I am not knowledgable enough about Warring State Beads to give any opinion on this bead's authenticity. The only Warring States bead I have is probably genuine, but with the eyes filled in with polymer clay. Clearly, I am easily fooled. ;-)

I am surprised however at one of your observations. You state that the small dots should be more even and filling drilled holes. I was under the impression that these beads were lampworked, and that the small dots were simply small dots of glass molten in. Due to imcompatibility or different erosion on different glass colors, they sometimes fall out. But I would not think they are made by filling in drilled holes. All the other decorations look like they are done at the torch to me.

This bead, from the Shanghai museum, also has the small dots not being equal in size. Does that make it suspicious to you?

Would love to know more about how you think they were produced.

The Antiques Hustle

http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ZyhgsHNNuf8J:www.theworldofchinese.com/2014/08/the-antiques-hustle/+&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

I liked the part where the peasants were out-foxing the scientific dating tests by grinding up ancient clay bricks to use in the fake clay figurines.

Yang Boda scandal

Along with four other experts, Yang Boda, former deputy curator of the Palace Museum in Beijing, determined that two items of jade clothing sewn with gold threads were authentic antiques and slapped a price tag of 2.4 billion yuan ($376 million) on them.
The two items were later found to be fakes.

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/opinion/2011-09/13/content_13670774.htm

A sub-theme in these articles is that the "experts" will never, ever admit that they were mistaken.

Another sub-theme is the prevalence of fakes in Chinese museums.

Phishing for Phools explores our weakness for a good story, and how the predatory exploit that.

Yes, your answer is very interesting. I posted another bead of similar bead, but the patina is not the same, do you have seen it?. This debate is important because we know all that a lot of forgery circulate. Did you read what I said about african beads? I saw many of these and the ground, where they were, is really determining too.

And what do you think about the second tube bead? the patina is different.

Hi Fred, hi everyone,

I agree completely with Fred. It’s natural to disagree about ancient beads and these disagreements help us to figure out the reasoning that underlies our own spontaneous judgements. So when I saw Fred’s notes on Kika’s photograph, I thought, “I need to think about this some more.” I didn’t have time till this afternoon when I sat down again with Kwan’s book on Ancient Chinese Glass and went through the pictures of more than a hundred eye beads in some detail. Here, for now, are my conclusions. I’ll take each of Fred’s points and note my responses.

1 “Overall surface texture much too even.” In fact, among Kwan’s glass beads a matte even surface is the norm. Of all the glass eye beads 31 out of 42 have a surface that is flat and even rather than shiny. I didn’t count the few that were damaged. This surprised me because I think of these beads essentially as being bright, as they obviously once were, but actually one of the consistent signs of age is the kind of surface that Fred complains about. Most of the pottery-cored eye beads are similar, and so are almost all the non-bead eye artefacts (plaques, inlays, etc).

2. “Thin application of decoration.” Fred is partially right here as far as the white bands are concerned. The white has retained its form less than in most beads in Kwan’s collection, but the difference may possibly be explained by varying soil conditions. Still, it’s definitely worth noting. This is the only one of Fred’s points that I would go along with wholeheartedly.

3. “Dots should be uniform and filling drilled holes.” In fact, this is quite incorrect. First of all the holes are not “drilled”; they are of course created by the drops of glass as they are applied to the core cylinder. And they are seldom uniform in size, presumably because of the difficulty in controlling exactly the quantity of glass. In Kwan’s book only 6 out of 21 beads with this kind of decoration have dots that could be described as being more or less uniform; all the others vary widely in size. I’ll attach a photo of a bead that has lost its dots (as most do) that is in the collection of the Royal Ontario Museum in Toronto. It’s a bead I’ve been able to examine closely; it was added to the collection in the early twentieth century. As you can see there’s no uniformity in these holes, andthey certainly weren’t drilled.

4. “Patina lacking in recessed areas.” This is a subjective judgement. To my eye, these areas where the glass decoration has worn away look exactly as they should. I have several of the pottery-cored glass eye beads and the areas of wear look exactly like this.

5. “These (central) lines should be perfectly centred.” No, they shouldn’t, and they’re not in most (70%) of the beads that have these central bands in Kwan’s book. These beads are very carefully made, but their geometry is not perfect - nor need it be.

6 “Peculiar white, red and black combination (of colours).” Here again, Fred may be partially right. This actual combination of colours is unusual, but each does occur frequently in Warring States beads. However, I haven’t yet come across an example of these tubular beads that has the small dot decoration in this reddish brown colour; they are generally white on the glass beads, though the dots of the eyes on the pottery-cored beads are various colours - blue, brown or yellow. How to weight this in the overall picture is a matter of personal judgement. For some it may be decisive; for me, because I think the bead is authentic, it can easily be explained by beadmakers playing with the available resources and trying out new arrangements of the patterns - which obviously happened constantly in this period of intense experimentation.

Incidentally, I ought to point out that it’s quite difficult to know what the original colours of these Warring States beads sometimes were. I think the core tube was almost certainly a strong blue, but the red dots might have actually been a shade of purple that was common in monochrome glass at the time. I’ll attach an ear ornament of mine (slightly later, Han dynasty) that was accidentally broken; the dull weathered surface opened up to reveal a beautiful bright purple.

So there we have it, more kindling for the disagreement. Whatever the conclusion, it’s great to have a chance to talk about these wonderful beads.

All the best,

Will

In searching back through old photos, I came on a thread on the forum several years ago where Pipane posted a large number of Warring States beads. At the end of the thread, there's a comment from Beadman: “All very nice beads. An excellent collection!” Here are the two cylinder beads in the group.

Pipane is the nom-de-plume of a French collector and businessman who lives in Beijing and who used to write on this forum. He speaks Chinese, Japanese and other Asian languages, and he's done more than most westerners to sort out the characteristics of authentic ancient jade and glass artefacts from all the fakes that fill the markets in China. It's a difficult task. He could help us now. Where are you, Stéphane, now that we need you?

W

Each of the points you have discussed is subjective in nature. And when it come to arts and crafts, each of us has to rely upon artistic intuition when we buy a bead. Comparing the red, white and black bead next to each of the others: It offends my sense of art in Warring States Era beads.

Recalling the year in which Kika bought the bead in Beijng, 2008, I visited Curio City, an antiques shopping mall in Beijing, daily during three trips that year alone. And I have been to Beijing dozens of times. At times, Curio City has been flooded with better copies than the black red and white one.

Will: You are a gentleman and a scholar. You have defended your stance beautifully. You should run for President of the United States. I will vote for you. Especially if you promise to build a bead museum in every major city.

When playing the role of judge and jury in the bead market, we have to weigh the clues which lead us to our decisions -this is especially important with Warring States beads because the Chinese market inspires copyists like no other. In this case, I have never been on the fence.

I am very busy this afternoon. But I can address the bead in question in detail later…How can we reach Pipane? Perhaps Kika or those with experience making beads would like to say more. I am especially interested in hearing from those who have experimented with usage of hydrochloric acid on beads -which I have witnessed in Beijing.

Sincerely,
Just Fred

Glass can be etched with hydrofluoric acid (HF), not hydrochloric. While both acids are very dangerous, hydrofluoric is EXTREMELY corrosive to organic matter such as human flesh and will cause horrid burns that may never heal. I had to use HF a few times in my career since it was the only way to etch some very inert plastics, and I was not happy about having to do the work.

Etching creams that contain sulfuric acid, sodium bifluoride, and ammonium bifluoride are sold and are "apparently safer". I would not go near this compound either, even with gloves that are rated for acids and a lot of other protective equipment. I'm sure glass etching can be done safely once the proper equipment is set up, but this has to be done with a lot of thoughtful preparation.

Fred, it must have been rather "thrilling" to see someone doing acid etching. Wondering why sand-blasting or tumbling wasn't used instead...

I have witnessed copyists unashamedly applying antique finishes to their products on Cat Street in Hong Kong and in The Panjiayuan market in Beijing. There are shops in Curio City which clearly offer fakes for resale. This is no secret. It is as though the word "antique" and "ancient" is a contraction for "antique style" or "ancient style."

But hydrofluoric acid, as Rosanna mentions, needs to be in a controlled environment. And I have heard horror stories from those who buy and sell it.

Just Fred

I frankly don't remember if we even wore gloves...we etched small glass window panes (Stencils carved with a blade). We just brushed the stuff on quickly, left it on for about one minute and rinsed it off. The ventilation would have simply been the classroom door open.

Here's a follow-up post, in which I discussed compelling imitations of these cylindrical WS beads. Also from 2009. JDA.

My thoughts are based on experience with making glass beads, and not any real knowledge about ancient glass beads and ancient glass beads production.

From a beadmakers' standpoint, it seems odd to me that these tiny dots were drilled. Jamey has emailed me too with lots of interesting information, but I am not completely convinced yet about the drilling technique.
It would mean you would make a detailed bead. Then drill it with much precision, then reheat it to add glass to the recesses and then perhaps grind off the excess? Or would some type of powder glass/enamel be used and applied cold and then reheated? Either way, the reheating part seems like a great risk to take.

Also, to me, most of the Warring States beads I have seen (in museums, online, and the few I have been able to hold) with these tiny dots have some irregularity in the dots.
I have added a link to a previous discussion with some great examples.
It is said that it can not be done these tiny dots.....but I would be surprised if someone like Michi Suzuki, a great lampwork glass artist whose beads these are, would not be able to make dots like that.

About the etching. I have used chemical etching to etch my beads. These are some examples. I use a liquid acid, but I do not know the exact chemical composition. It works fast. The beads are matte within minutes. It is also a simple process: string the beads on plastic, dip them in, mix them up a bit so they are not touching each other, take them out and flush vigorously with plenty of water. I did get a drop on me once, and did not hurt or leave a mark.

The finish is different from sandblasting or tumbling. What you use depends on the result you want. Chemical etching is certainly the easiest and fastest of the three methods.

There is also another technique, called scavo, which comes from Venice. Apparantly that gives a more accurate aged look and feel. It includes potassium nitrate and heating it. I am not doing that one just yet in my home.

Finally, some people use baking soda on a bead to get a pitted surface, which resembles some types of corrosion on ancient beads.

Purely on how they feel, I would think they are tumbled. It gives a smoother feel than etching and would work well for large quantities.

That would be consistent with tumbling. Tumbling generally does not etch the recessed areas, where the etching chemical etches all over since it is a liquid.

PLEASE FORGIVE ME FOR WRITING IN ALL CAPS, BUT I NEED TO IDENTIFY MY RESPONSE ALONG SIDE OF WILL'S IDEAS.

ALSO, I AM OFFERING MY OPINION AS A COLLECTOR, NOT A SCHOLAR, BECAUSE I HAVE HANDLED HUNDREDS OF SPECIMEN'S WHILE SHOPPING IN BEIJING. AND THIS TOPIC HAS BEEN OF CONCERN TO ME FOR MANY YEARS:

Hi Fred, hi everyone,
HI WILL, HI EVERYONE,

I agree completely with Fred. THANK YOU FOR BEGINNING BY SAYING YOU ARE "AGREEING COMPLETELY WITH ME!" BUT I ALSO SEE YOU ARE AGREEING TO DISAGREE... It’s natural to disagree about ancient beads and these disagreements help us to figure out the reasoning that underlies our own spontaneous judgements. So when I saw Fred’s notes on Kika’s photograph, I thought, “I need to think about this some more.” I HAVE ALSO FOUND SIMON KWAN'S BOOK, FROM 2001, ON MY SHELVES TITLED "EARLY CHINESE GLASS." THIS BOOK HAS BEEN CAREFULLY STORED AWAY FOR NEARLY FIFTEEN YEARS AND I AM THRILLED TO FIND GOOD USE FOR IT TODAY. I didn’t have time till this afternoon when I sat down again with Kwan’s book on Ancient Chinese Glass and went through the pictures of more than a hundred eye beads in some detail. Here, for now, are my conclusions. I’ll take each of Fred’s points and note my responses. ACTUALLY THERE ARE ONLY ABOUT EIGHT TUBULAR EYE BEADS PICTURED. THERE ARE MANY EYE BEADS. BUT OVERALL, THIS PROVIDES A LARGE ENOUGH PERSPECTIVE ON SOME OF THE ISSUES AT HAND. AND CURIOUSLY, IN BEIJING'S CURIO CITY, THERE HAVE BEEN DOZENS FOR SALE ON ANY GIVEN DAY, WHEN I HAVE SHOPPED THERE.

1. “Overall surface texture much too even.” In fact, among Kwan’s glass beads a matte even surface is the norm. I NEED TO CLARIFY: I AM REFERRING TO THE POWDER LIKE, CHALKY WHITE SURFACE FILM ON KIKA'S RED, WHITE AND BLACK TUBE, WHICH NONE OF THE OTHER BEADS SHOW. AND REVIEWING EVERYTHING IN THE BOOK, I CAN SEE MORE VARIETY IN SURFACE TEXTURE THAN KIKA'S RED, WHITE AND BLACK EXAMPLE…ALTHOUGH, SOMETIMES, EVER SO SLIGHT. Of all the glass eye beads 31 out of 42 have a surface that is flat and even rather than shiny. THIS IS A SUBJECTIVE CALL. AGAIN, I SEE MORE VARIETY IN SURFACE TEXTURE IN KWAN THAN YOU DO. I didn’t count the few that were damaged. This surprised me because I think of these beads essentially as being bright, as they obviously once were, but actually one of the consistent signs of age is the kind of surface that Fred complains about. Most of the pottery-cored eye beads are similar, and so are almost all the non-bead eye artefacts (plaques, inlays, etc). LOOKING AT THE BOOK AS A WHOLE, THE MAJORITY OF GLASS PIECES HAVE THE INCONSISTENT SIGNS OF AGE WHICH ORDINARILY MAKE UP THE PATINA WE HAVE GROWN TO EXPECT IN ANTIQUITY. YOU CAN USE SOME OF THE EXAMPLES FROM KWAN'S BOOK TO SUPPORT YOUR THEORY. BUT I CAN USE MANY MORE EXAMPLES TO SUPPORT MY THEORY. I REPEAT: THE MOST OBVIOUS DIFFERENCE IS THE POWDERY FILM ON KIKA'S BEAD.

2. “Thin application of decoration.” Fred is partially right here as far as the white bands are concerned. The white has retained its form less than in most beads in Kwan’s collection, but the difference may possibly be explained by varying soil conditions. THIS CAN BE EXPLAINED WHEN USING HYDROFLUORIC ACID TO CREATE A FALSE PATINA. WHITE IS THE FIRST COLOR TO DEVITRIFY. Still, it’s definitely worth noting. This is the only one of Fred’s points that I would go along with wholeheartedly. THANK YOU FOR GOING ALONG WITH THIS POINT WHOLEHEARTEDLY.

EACH POINT NEEDS TO BE WEIGHED DIFFERENTLY. MY ART SENSE LEADS ME TO PLACE MUCH IMPORTANCE ON THE THICKNESS OF DECORATION: THIS REVEALS THE ARTIST'S INTENT AND SKILL IN APPLICATION: THE REASON THAT WARRING STATES BEADS HAVE BEEN SO HIGHLY REGARDED IS EXPLAINED IN A PICTURE IN ONE OF FLOOR'S POSTS ABOVE: "WITH THEIR NEAT AND RIGOROUS FORM OF DECORATIVE DESIGNS, CLASSIC MATERIAL COLORS, THEY ARE SEEN AS THE PINNACLE OF THE WORLD'S ANCIENT DRAGONFLY EYE GLASS BEADS." MY PERSONAL ARTISTIC SENSIBILITY MAKES ME FEEL THAT KIKA'S RED, WHITE AND BLACK BEAD IS CARELESS BY COMPARISON WITH MOST CLEARLY IDENTIFIABLE WARRING STATES ERA BEADS.

3. “Dots should be uniform and filling drilled holes.” In fact, this is quite incorrect. EXPERTS DISAGREE AS TO HOW THESE BEADS WERE CONSTRUCTED. THE WAY THAT I RECENTLY HEARD IT FROM JAMEY ALLEN AND YEARS AGO FROM SPECIALISTS IN BEIJING, IS THAT EXAMPLES WHICH BEST ILLUSTRATE EXCELLENCE IN DESIGN HAVE HAD SHALLOW CAVITIES DRILLED IN ORDER TO CAREFULLY DISTRIBUTE THE DOTS. KIKA'S BEAD SEEMS SLOPPY USING KWAN'S COLLECTION FOR COMPARISON. KWAN'S BOOK SHOWS A VARIETY OF TECHNIQUES IN THIS REGARD. AND MY EYES GRAVITATE TOWARD PERFECTION, WHICH I FEEL BEST ILLUSTRATES THE REASON FOR THE IMPORTANCE OF THE WARRING STATES BEAD. First of all the holes are not “drilled”; they are of course created by the drops of glass as they are applied to the core cylinder. And they are seldom uniform in size, presumably because of the difficulty in controlling exactly the quantity of glass. In Kwan’s book only 6 out of 21 beads with this kind of decoration have dots that could be described as being more or less uniform; all the others vary widely in size. WE CAN ONLY ASSUME THAT EVEN SIMON KWAN REALIZES THE NEED FOR FURTHER STUDY BY INCLUDING CHEMICAL ANALYSIS FOR THE PIECES ILLUSTRATED IN HIS BOOK. IN MY EXPERIENCE, WHEN STUDYING CONNOISSEUR COLLECTIONS THERE ARE ALWAYS MISTAKEN IDENTITIES; I WOULD SUSPECT THAT SIMON KWAN'S BOOK IS NO EXCEPTION. I’ll attach a photo of a bead that has lost its dots (as most do) that is in the collection of the Royal Ontario Museum in Toronto. It’s a bead I’ve been able to examine closely; it was added to the collection in the early twentieth century. As you can see there’s no uniformity in these holes, andthey certainly weren’t drilled. I AM NOT SAYING THEY WERE ALL DRILLED. BUT IT APPEARS TO ME THAT SOME OF THE BEST ONES MAY HAVE BEEN DRILLED.

4. “Patina lacking in recessed areas.” This is a subjective judgement. To my eye, these areas where the glass decoration has worn away look exactly as they should. I have several of the pottery-cored glass eye beads and the areas of wear look exactly like this. THANK YOU FOR ACKNOWLEDGING THAT THIS IS SUBJECTIVE JUDGEMENT. PERSONALLY, I SEE NO EXPLANATION FOR THE RECESSED AREAS TO HAVE THE SAME SURFACE TEXTURE AS THE TOP OF THE BEAD. ESPECIALLY SINCE THE INTERIOR OF THE BEAD APERTURE IS STAINED. TO ME, IT IS AS THOUGH A COPYIST NEGLECTED TO COMPLETE THE JOB.

5. “These (central) lines should be perfectly centred.” No, they shouldn’t, and they’re not in most (70%) of the beads that have these central bands in Kwan’s book. These beads are very carefully made, but their geometry is not perfect - nor need it be. HERE AGAIN, WE DISAGREE. BY COMPARISON WITH THE EXAMPLES IN KWAN'S BOOK AND THE SHANGHAI EXHIBIT, THE EQUATORIAL LINES ON KIKA'S BEAD ARE VERY OFF CENTER. ALTHOUGH I AGREE THERE IS NO ABSOLUTE PERFECTION IN ANY OF KWAN'S EXAMPLES. PERHAPS THE WORD "PERFECTION" IS A WORD I SHOULD NOT BE USING FOR WARRING STATES BEADS. BUT BY COMPARISON, I SEE AN EXTREME DISPARITY BETWEEN KIKA'S AND KWAN'S EXAMPLES -AS WELL AS FLOOR'S EXAMPLES FROM THE SHANGHAI MUSEUM EXHIBIT.

6 “Peculiar white, red and black combination (of colours).” Here again, Fred may be partially right. THIS IS THE DEAD GIVEAWAY. THERE IS NOT ONE EXAMPLE IN ANCIENT CHINESE GLASS THAT I AM AWARE OF WHICH SUPPORTS THIS PARTICULAR COLOR COMBINATION. A PERSON CAN MAKE A CASE FOR DISCOLORATION OVER TIME, BUT WHERE ARE SIMILAR EXAMPLES? This actual combination of colours is unusual, but each does occur frequently in Warring States beads. THIS PARTICULAR RED COLOR IN KIKA'S BEAD IS CONSISTENT WITH TODAY'S GLASS. NOT IN ANTIQUITY. However, I haven’t yet come across an example of these tubular beads that has the small dot decoration in this reddish brown colour; they are generally white on the glass beads, though the dots of the eyes on the pottery-cored beads are various colours - blue, brown or yellow. How to weight this in the overall picture is a matter of personal judgement. For some it may be decisive; for me, because I think the bead is authentic, it can easily be explained by beadmakers playing with the available resources and trying out new arrangements of the patterns - which obviously happened constantly in this period of intense experimentation.
Incidentally, I ought to point out that it’s quite difficult to know what the original colours of these Warring States beads sometimes were. I think the core tube was almost certainly a strong blue, but the red dots might have actually been a shade of purple that was common in monochrome glass at the time. I’ll attach an ear ornament of mine (slightly later, Han dynasty) that was accidentally broken; the dull weathered surface opened up to reveal a beautiful bright purple.
So there we have it, more kindling for the disagreement. Whatever the conclusion, it’s great to have a chance to talk about these wonderful beads.
All the best,
Will

WHEN I SEE HOW EXPERTS CAREFULLY COUCH THEIR OPINIONS, I FEEL I HAVE MUCH TO LEARN IN THIS REGARD.

FURTHERMORE, WE DON'T COMPLETELY KNOW WHAT KWAN'S BOOK SAYS. DISCUSSIONS ARE WRITTEN ENTIRELY IN CHINESE. ONLY THE TITLES OF BEADS ARE OFFERED IN ENGLISH. SCHOLARS DEDICATED TO THIS SUBJECT ARE REQUIRED TO DECIPHER COMPARATIVE EVIDENCE IN CHINESE. I AGREE THAT THIS IS ONLY MORE KINDLING FOR DISAGREEMENT. AND IT IS GREAT FOR ME TO HAVE BEEN FORCED TO TAKE A CLOSER LOOK AT SIMON KWAN'S COLLECTION AND TALK ABOUT THESE BEADS. THIS SUBJECT IS BECOMING MORE PROBLEMATIC AS COPYISTS FULFILL INCREASING DEMAND IN CHINA. TYPICALLY THIS IS PART OF THE DRAMA WHEN SLEUTHING IN THE ANTIQUITIES MARKET.

WITH MUCH LOVE TO KIKA, WILL AND EVERYONE IN OUR LITTLE BEAD WORLD,
Just Fred

P.S. ORDINARILY, I WOULD HAVE USED A DIFFERENT COLOR AND UPPER AND LOWER CASE TEXT TO DISTINGUISH MY RESPONSE TO WILL.

Yes! this debate is fascinating!
I can bring 2 precisions:
1) you say:
ESPECIALLY SINCE THE INTERIOR OF THE BEAD APERTURE IS STAINED. TO ME, IT IS AS THOUGH A COPIEST WAS NOT WILLING TO COMPLETE THE JOB.
No, I take a coton and it is soil. There are absolutely not stained.
2) Unfortunately for our debate, only pics are not suffisant to see exactly a piece.

I feel that I do not need to see the bead in person; it is obvious to me.

Although I am known for the Japanese ojime bead, I have much more experience with Chinese beads. When shopping for ojime, my eyes were drawn toward the closest examples, Chinese beads. There are countless more Chinese beads to study. And I started in beads just before the market was flooded with copies in the seventies and eighties. Sometimes the difference between the old and the new is very subtle. Standing on my head to explain the difference is exhausting. And few collectors outside of China seem to care.

I am beginning to see why young people are more interested in technology than archeology. In my case, I would rather buy beads than a new iPhone.

Just Fred

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hj-qhIGTXdU

And Jack Webb, star of the show, was originally married to Julie London. I hope she was not Crying a River over her beads. After all, they are:

Just Beads

I ‘m afraid we’re in danger of simply repeating ourselves, and getting dug in to our original positions. I still find myself not agreeing with most of Fred’s responses, but I’ll try to be brief (fond hope!!!) and deal with only two of them:

1 The supposedly “drilled” holes. It’s foolhardy, I know, to disagree with Jamey Allen because he is so much more knowledgeable than any of us about bead history and technology. But I agree with Floor on this. I simply can’t see the rationale for the claim that the holes for the “lattice pattern” (as Kwan calls it) of tiny dots on Warring States glass beads were drilled out of the cold core of the glass tube and then, presumably, topped up with molten glass. I’m attaching again to this post the bead from the ROM that has lost its glass dots. I hope anyone who is reading this will look at it closely. To my eyes, the holes are neither uniform in size nor in shape, which is how they would presumably appear if they were drilled. Instead, they look much more like the holes that occur when one element in a glass pattern drops out of the core beneath it. So, if this is a characteristic that is found on one undoubtedly authentic bead (and it appears on many more), it can’t be a sign of another bead being a fake, can it? I’ll also attach an ancient West Asian bead where a similar effect is seen; so far there’s no theory I’ve heard of that those holes were drilled.

Fred talks about his view being shared by “specialists in Beijing,” and it would be good to know who they are. I should point out that there’s nothing that I can find in Kwan’s text to support the suggestion that the holes were drilled, and I can see nothing in the research of the two most significant scholars who have studied ancient Chinese glass in recent years, An Jiayao and Gan Fuxi. It would certainly be important to them, because this would be the first example of glass in China being worked in a lapidary way, and an example of jade technology spilling into glass beadmaking.

2. The supposedly “modern” colour of the small reddish brown dots on Kika’s beads. In fact, there are several examples of similar red-brown eyes on beads in Kwan’s collection; look at examples on pages 185 and 187 for a start. There are many more. This red-brown glass is also quite close to the rich brown that one finds in the glazed patterns on many of the Warring States beads with pottery-cores. In any case, it’s definitely not a “modern” red.

Finally, I would just refer to Fred’s claim that: “At times, Curio City in Beijing has been flooded with better copies than (Kika’s) black red and white one.” Well if there is such a flood of such copies, surely there must be many images of them somewhere, in archives or for sale on the internet. I’d love to see just one.

All the best,

Will

Hi Will,
For you some pics of a bead. The blue is due to the iridescence. Warring States again

and the other faces of the same bead.

Dear Will,

My self esteem is not derived from my role as a bead researcher. I am Just Fred -a compulsive bead shopper, having spent hours, days, and months in Beijing, Shanghai, and Hong Kong with my eyes wide open and my wallet tightly shut -swimming with the sharks and a translator at my side ten to twelve hours a day.

The weather in Beijing is nearly identical to New York City. It is very hot in the summer and very cold in the winter. Therefore, I almost always stay next door to Curio City and the Panjiayuan market so that I may take breaks in my hotel room. The copies which enter the shops of the finest dealers seem to pop up like mushrooms -with striking similarity and at the same time. Prices justify one of a kind copies. Today, there are three Curio or "Antique Cities" next door to one another in the Panjiayuan area. This area offers at least one thousand shops and land mines of opportunities.

In Simon Kwan's book you point out pages 185 and 187: I see a reddish brown color in his beads which I feel conflicts with the reddish red colors in Kika's bead. I have often heard that my sense of color is astute. And there seems to be agreement between a prominent bead magazine editor and Jamey Allen that some of the red colors in Kika's bead appear to be modern or restored. Bead specialists disagree. Difference of opinion among recognized experts is part of the drama which makes sleuthing in the bead world challenging and fun.

Unfortunately, even the finest examples of Warring States Beads which have surfaced during the last ten to twenty years are guilty until proven innocent. Chinese copyists are that good.

Will, everyone loves hearing from you because you're an ingenious role model for diplomacy. You are my first choice to lead a panel discussion on Warring States Beads at the next International Bead Conference.

Kind Regards,
Just Fred

I have to rectify: I did make a pic but the light was not good enough, and so that we see better, I increased colors, I do not think that we can trust of the whole the nuance of red on a pic. The red of this bead is absolutely not reddish red, it fires at the brown, in reality, like on the other beads of this period.

I think I got these as warring state beads.
These beads are around 16x16mm's. The perf
s still have release compound inside.
These beads are east to age but...they are still very nice.
Just thought I'd add my 2 cents worth.
See ya at the forum

The effects obtained in hydrofluoric acid varies and I don't know why.
And, the powdery "frosted" look is just one of many results possible.

Just Fred

HI Frederick
What do you mean? the red color of my bead has nothing to do with these beads

A few small examples in my collection. Don't know if they are real or fakes.
ac

Christopher Kim's 2012 article is definitely worth a read.

http://brown.edu/Departments/Joukowsky_Institute/undergrad/prizes/Kim2012.pdf - nice charts and maps and illustrations

And someone's evidently been working on the Wikipedia info:

Eye Beads
The earliest types of glass objects found in China are polychrome eye beads or dragonfly-eyed beads. The beads are found in burials from the late Spring and Autumn and early Warring States periods (early 5th century BC) up to late Warring State – early Western Han period. Most beads have a monochrome glass body covered by several layers of coloured glass. The layers of different colour glass are applied in alternating fashion to produce concentric circles.The patterns of circles resemble eyes, giving the beads their name. This style of bead originated in the Near East during the mid 2nd millennium BC. The stylistic influence later spread to the Mediterranean, Central Asia and China.

During the early 5th century BC, the imported eye beads were considered exotic objects. They were mainly deposited in high status burials, such as the tomb of a male aristocrat of the Qi state at Langjiazhuang, Shadong. This situation changes during the middle and late Warring States Period. Eye beads from this period are manufactured from Chinese lead-barium glass and are mainly found in the regions of the middle Yangzi River Valley, indicating a connection to the Chu kingdom. In this context, the beads became more common and available to a larger part of the Chinese society. Evidence of this is the presence of eye beads in medium and small burials, with modest funerary furnishings, as well as large, high-status burials.

The use of eye beads in burials rapidly declined at the beginning of the Western Han period. This is believed to be a result of the invasion of Chu kingdom territories by Qin and Han armies at the end of the 3rd century. The collapse of the Chu kingdom would have brought production of eye-beads to an end.