Post Message Search Overview RegisterLoginAdmin
Why do Japanese sellers on ebay consistently call old Chinese cloisonné beads "Ojime?"
Post Reply Edit View All Forum
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
10/12/2015, 10:31:05

ebay 171958236997



Modified by Frederick II at Tue, Oct 13, 2015, 02:31:03

Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
"Obidome" possibly would be more accurate, but then nobody would buy them
Re: Why do Japanese sellers on ebay consistently call old Chinese cloisonné beads "Ojime?" -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
10/12/2015, 13:17:19

My theory is that these beads were bought in China during the Japanese occupation - for the ladies, as they show up strung on those nice braided cords that are used as obidome for wear over a kimono sash.

The guys seemed to like small sake bottles and cups, or sets of small wine/tea cups.

The dragons on these things are all pretty casual - foreign occupation, wartime economic conditions - but the Japanese were the customers, and if these were the little souvenir type things that young soldiers could afford, that's what got made? Craftsmen have to eat.

Young US soldiers, on the other hand, in Peking before 1937 and after 1945, seem to have been attracted to cigarette cases and traditional calligraphy brush washing dishes, which they no doubt bought as ashtrays.

But World War II was a long time ago, especially if you were born in the 1980s and are now disposing of grampa's stuff or finding things at antique shops, flea markets...

And "Ojime" has that magic glow of being something for which collectors will pay nice sums. These beads seem to usually go for around $45-50 apiece.

MOMENTS LATER: I rest my case: item 321878840555



Modified by beadiste at Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 13:22:06

Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
May I ask: "How have you gathered this information?"
Re: "Obidome" possibly would be more accurate, but then nobody would buy them -- beadiste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
10/12/2015, 21:19:28

-For those of you who may need review: The ojime is a slide closure for an inro or tobacco pouch -used as a pocket substitute when men wore Kimonos in Japan. The obidome was a slide closure on a flat cord -used to secure the woman's obi in place.-

Dear Chris,

I feel that your points should be noted because you have a great deal of experience exploring all kinds of Chinese cloisonné. In your considerable experience: Have you found Japanese ebay sellers offering mid-19th c. Chinese cigarette paraphernalia and calling it "Japanese?"

When the Chinese were making these beads, the Japanese had little need -except for ceremonial occasions such as weddings- for the inro ensemble. Because fewer people were wearing the Kimono mid 19th century, there was no need to make more ojime.

When I've asked Japanese sellers how they arrived at the notion that their Chinese cloisonné is Japanese, they usually say they are not experts and rely upon the buyer's decision based upon the image posted on ebay...Consider the Christmas ornament sized beads which were offered as ojime less than one year ago…THAT was fraud. Ojime are seldom larger than 18mm or 3/4 inch. Everyone should know this.

The ojime has been intended as a slide closure; and a Chinese cloisonné bead has an abrasive rim around the aperture. Whereas, Japanese cloisonné beads -as well as almost all ojime- have a much smoother, beveled, countersunk or lined rim around the hole.

I question all of this is because, for many years, I have been the buyer of almost all of the Chinese cloisonné beads sold as "Ojime" on ebay. And they are ALWAYS in PERFECT condition and excellent examples. This is why I've paid the price. There seems to be no other source than Japan for such perfect examples. Therefore, it seems as though the old Chinese cloisonné beads were collected by the Japanese when the beads were new. -And then carefully preserved in good collections. If they were worn, they were not worn very much.

Obviously, today, the Japanese are sometimes marketing them as ojime on ebay. But I disagree with the sellers that they were ever intended for adaptation as ojime. I have never seen a Chinese cloisonné bead adapted for an inro ensemble. I may have seen the ones adapted as a decoration on an obidome…but it is odd to me…

For more than forty years I have studied auctions from Christies, Sothebys, Phillips and Bonhams aa well as most museum collections. And I have never seen Chinese cloisonné adapted for use as ojime.

Just Fred



Modified by Frederick II at Tue, Oct 13, 2015, 02:12:32

Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
I own one example, others from photos, including from Japan
Re: May I ask: "How have you gathered this information?" -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
10/13/2015, 00:07:57

From a Japanese blog, describing first pic below:

At every shrine sale or antiques show there are many dealers selling obidome, the jeweled ornament worn on the narrow obijime cord as an over belt on a kimono’s wide obi. They are often made with semi-precious stones such as jade, coral, amethyst and others, ivory, enamels and cloisonné, silver and other metals and even Bakelite.

One of the examples seems to be one of those dragon/phoenix disk beads with the slotted holes, another seems to use a pair of oval dragon beads.

Then there's that kanzashi with a cloisonne dragon bead that Nick found, so I suppose that's another non-ojime application.

obi-dome-at-heiwajima.jpg (102.1 KB)  ObidomeNickBC_(1).jpg (55.9 KB)  


Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Thank you very much for sharing these images...
Re: I own one example, others from photos, including from Japan -- beadiste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
10/13/2015, 00:16:44

The tabular cloisonné beads with the slotted holes are persuasive as obidome. But the football shaped beads have round holes and seem like they are going to flop around and abraid the ribbon.

The Kanzashi (hair ornament not pictured) is a good example of an opportunity for adaptation. I have seen important ojime with the hole reconfigured to fit a hair pin.

And in your examples of the obidome for sale in an Antiques Show, I can see a multi metal menuki -sword decoration- as well. This adaptation I have seen many times.

Notice how all of the obidome ornaments and ribbons are in good condition -as if they were seldom worn
-perhaps they were put together for collectors after the fashion for wearing them became obsolete.

Just Fred



Modified by Frederick II at Tue, Oct 13, 2015, 03:03:57

Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Another example
Re: Thank you very much for sharing these images... -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
10/13/2015, 10:48:37

Did a Google images search, and this one popped up.

What I find interesting is that these obviously Chinese cloisonne products - dragon beads, sake bottles, small cups, inro - are never described as Chinese. Always "Japanese."

"The vendor's description:
Description:
Shippou balls obidome, with obijime. Shippou is Japanese cloisonné enamel. An Obidome is worn on an obijime and positioned at the front of an obi.

Obidome make extremely nice collectors' items, as they come is such a big variety of shapes, sizes and prices.

Many obidome, especially antique ones, require a slightly narrower than standard obijime, known as a sanbuhimo

When an obijime is worn with an obidome on it, the obidome sits at the front of the sash and the obijime is tied inside the rear knot. The jewellery at the front is known as an obidome but an obijime with an obidome on it is also just called and obidome.

Made and bought in Japan"

Hmmmmm.....

ObidomeDragonBeadsA.jpg (100.8 KB)  

Related link: http://www.wafuku.co.uk/index.php?c=865&p=104746

Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
And another one in openwork cloisonne, same vendor
Re: Another example -- beadiste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
10/13/2015, 10:55:14

ObidomeOpenworkBead.jpg (105.7 KB)  


Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Anyone else see the similarity in the style of these red enamel pieces?
Re: And another one in openwork cloisonne, same vendor -- beadiste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
10/13/2015, 11:03:02

The pair of round beads from the same vendor as the previous examples, the disc bead from eBay last year. I recall posting more pics of it somewhere here, as it came with its original box.

ObidomeEnamel.jpg (35.7 KB)  ObidomeDragonRedEnamel.JPG (73.4 KB)  


Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
We help a little. But few care.
Re: Why do Japanese sellers on ebay consistently call old Chinese cloisonné beads "Ojime?" -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
10/13/2015, 12:37:56

Collectors help by filtering the best beads and categorizing them. Ideally, some beads may find themselves in the hands of proper historians who will give them the recognition they deserve.

Will we ever know the true story of the cloisonné bead? Like most history books, the popular version is most persuasive.. History is an art form in itself.

Just Fred

P.S. Whatever happened to The Bead Museums?



Modified by Frederick II at Wed, Oct 14, 2015, 05:37:40

Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
A bit curious...
Re: We help a little. But few care. -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
10/14/2015, 09:03:34

...as to what constitutes "a proper historian."

Also what is the "popular version" of the story of the cloisonne bead?



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Interpreting Fred:
Re: A bit curious... -- beadiste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
10/14/2015, 14:50:58

Hi Chris,

By "proper historian" I mean -for example- the kind of person who may have a PhD in Chinese Art History specializing in cloisonné beads.

By "popular version" I mean her/his best selling dissertation based upon research in the Chinese language.

In practice, I like BCN the way it is. I see it as a chat room where people get together to have fun and share from their experiences.

Beadcollector.net is "here as an educational tool for the purpose of reporting information and research related to bead collecting."

We pool our information in order to come up with a little something.

Just Fred



Modified by Frederick II at Wed, Oct 14, 2015, 15:33:03

Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
The voice of Zhang Rong, Palace Museum curator
Re: Interpreting Fred: -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
10/14/2015, 16:00:24

Late in the Qing dynasty and during the Republic, the craft of enamel, like the last rays of a setting sun, again reached a minor peak. The finest surviving cloisonne objects from this period exhibit marks of official and private organizations and workshops ... But owing to the lack of documents, very little is known abut these enameling workshops during this period.

So maybe that PhD candidate might just have to inspect aggregations of representative works and go from there.



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
And then, after all is said and done, experts will disagree...
Re: The voice of Zhang Rong, Palace Museum curator -- beadiste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
10/14/2015, 19:12:10



Modified by Frederick II at Thu, Oct 15, 2015, 00:46:50

Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users


Forum     Back