He thought these to be "old" but I think they are similar to recent etched and distressed agates and carnelian that I'm buying today. Pretty neat beads, none the less.

Hi Russ,

They are interesting looking beads. However their type is not typical of "Tibet," but rather would be more at-home in Afghanistan. Do we assume these are new Chinese reproductions?

Jamey

In the pairs of strands, the inner strand is what he used to make the new ones. In the large "rice" round bead close up, the upper strand is old.

I have my doubts about the origin of the red agate beads. I think they are recent Chinese. How recent I'm not sure as they do show some wear. But then, so does Art's giant cheveron show "some wear."

--Russ

Hi Russ,

Chinese stone-beadmakers began to make decorated beads of carnelian in 1997. That is when I was in Taiwan and saw them for the first time, before they had made it to the US. I believe I brought back the first of such beads seen by any Americans.

Every year or so since then, they make new editions of beads. Typically, these combine aspects of Tibetan types (usually the patterns) with Middle Eastern or Central Asian types (the shapes). Decorated carnelians are not really typical of Tibetan beads, with certain exceptions. However, Nepal, bordering as it does on India and Tibet has been a notable source of carnelians (from India). But the Chinese beads, and those you show, do not really look like any particular product nor from a specific tradition. They are a chimera.

Decorated carnelian beads and pseudo-decorated fakes also come out of Pakistan/Afghanistan—so it's not as though one can just draw an easy conclusion. But my guess is your beads are Chinese, regardless of the design.

Jamey

Hi Russ,

By your remark "... what he used to make the new ones," I hope you mean these were the beads that INSPIRED the copies.

There are unbelievable stories circulated that Javanese beadmakers take old beads (or old glass), and make it into new beads. I believe they tell this story to make some implausible connection between old beads and new copies—and I do not believe it is true. The new copies are most likely made from new glass.

Your phrasing may inadvertently seem to confirm this fake story.

Jamey

Sorry, I should have been clearer.
Problem with rushing to post with a slow connection.

The old ones are the kind he used to give the glass workers as the sample to make the new beads.

OTOH, this seller also talked about using old bead material to make thenew beads. I've heard that from a number of people very closely involved with the making of the new beads in Bali and Jave. (The baru antiques as they like to say here. Baru means, simply, new.) It makes no sense to me. There is a faint possibility of using old glass but to crush old bead fragments makes no sense. Last year we heard that some particular colors were made with old glass and the rest new but that again does not make sense with the problem of incompatibility.

--Russ

Had a discussion today with 3 sellers of copy beads in Java. All insist the makers use glass from old, dug, grave robbed, beads to make new beads. 2 described many many old broken monochrome beads reused. One said they took some westerners to Java to show them process. I'll contact them in my spare time to find out what they saw. OPne of he westerners who went to Java is a glass worker who will have beter understanding of the process.

I still have serious doubts.

Hi again,

Just a few minutes to spare before we head north to Chiang Mai...

We grilled several sellers who work closely with the bead makers or employ the bead makers. All insist that in Java, In Jember area, they collect from farmers or rob from graves kilos of old beads, usually in bad condition. Many are monochrome beads. Badly decayed, damaged, crushed beads are melted and reused for each color. I'll post some pictures of beads that are supposed to be all old glass except for some stark white.

All of them talk about finding or seeing large jars found with kilos of old beads which are used in the making of new copy beads.

I did not have time to contact the couple who went to Jember and are supposed to have pictures of the old glass in use.

In the Bali airport bookstore Dee and I ran into John Diepeveen of beadbrothers.nl He says he's involved with copy bead production and can recognize "his" beads because of obvious flaws like mixing patterns and designs that were never used together in the old beads. He also described jars of old broken glass beads.

It's a persistant story.

John also mentioned that the Slick sample card collection goes on display in Amsterdam next year. He invited us all to come see it.

--Russ (www.rings-things.com - Spokane, WA - USA) posting from Thailand

Here's 3 pictures.

First is a strand of old, collected (grave robbed?) yellow beads. The center one is badly decayed. This one is barely still a bead. Anything worse than it would be used for making new beads. My sources all say they have seen jars full of old damaged beads like this.

Second are several stands of twisted striped drum shaped beads showing a lot of wear. These strads are NEW, only a few years old. They were subjected to about 2 years worth of rain water and running water erosion to get to this shape. (Sorry, Art, no motorcycles were used in this except perhaps for transport.)

Third is a bead they tell me is made with old colors, old glass, all except the white figure which was made with new glass.

Hi Russ,

There is certainly a possibility that SOME beadmakers in Java recycle old glass to make new reproduction beads.

However, if we take into consideration the nature of the current industry that makes new beads, it is clear that ALL of these beads cannot be made from old glass—and that current practices and output logically rely on new glass (whether made in Java, recycled from available glass—as we KNOW they do—or using old glass. Or some COMBINATION of these possibilities.

The primary questions are these: WHY would they use old glass to make new beads, if plenty of new glass were available? What is the motive? Is it MORE LIKELY that this is just a story to make the beads more desirable or acceptable?

For one thing, the issue of compatibility springs immediately to my mind. You can't just take any (old or new) glass, and combine several colors together, and expect them all to be compatible and to fuse together—such that multicolored mosaic-glass products will result successfully. This is infinitely more possible using glasses made NOW, that are made to be compatible.

As with all beads, anywhere in the world, the stories that are insisted upon are often untrue, and are geared for an audience that is not doubtful, and certainly not knowledgeable about the specifics of glassmaking and glassworking, and who may not ask reasonable and specific questions based on knowledge.

I have to remain skeptical of this issue, until it is demonstrated.

Jamey

I tend to agree with you Jamey though having just returned from Indonesia and having collected beads there since 1989 I must say the fakes are really getting good and it is the first time dealers have told me the story(maybe i was told just dismissed it).Perhaps it is coincidental but those they say are old glass are much better colour and often they are fused to an ancient monochrome jatim core- for sure the core is old-whether or not the mosaic on top is I am not so sure. I wait to hear from someone more knowlegable than myself.I must also say the only a tiny fraction of the beads i viewed were claimed to be of old glass.Regards Andrew

At first I thought they were all new, then I saw your subsequent post. Yes, I can see the difference on most of new vs. old, although the "rice" examples as you call them are pretty convincing. As a collector of this type of ancient bead, it makes me nervous that better and better reproductions keep hitting the market. All my javanese jatim and pelangi beads come from well known and reputable sellers so I feel confident, but to the newer collector, buying right now could be a risk, definitely.

Joy B.

These are very nice! Hope you bring back some of the green and yellows.

Actually, I didn't buy any of those particular ones. I thought they were too expensive. I'll check around.