Post Message Search Overview RegisterLoginAdmin
Close inspection of Indonesian (Javanese?) beads
Post Reply Edit View All Forum
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
06/10/2017, 13:47:42

I found these two strands of Indonesian (Java was also mentioned in the ad) online and decided to buy them in order to be able to examine the ones that look like very good copies of old Venetian trade beads.

The two strands look very attractive and I'm sure your eye will be drawn to a number that look a lot like older beads.

The following series of posts has comparisons I made with Venetian beads in my collection, along with some very handsome beads that "sort of" look Venetian.

Not sure if we should refer to these beads as Indonesian or Javanese, or even something else. Would appreciate your input!

RFIndonesianJun2017a.jpg (58.4 KB)  RFIndonesianJun2017b.jpg (56.0 KB)  


Modified by Rosanna at Sat, Jun 10, 2017, 13:48:42

Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Black with yellow lattice pattern and eyes
Re: Close inspection of Indonesian (Javanese?) beads -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
06/10/2017, 13:51:51

This particular "tribute" bead is a very close copy. I think I would assume they are Venetian if I saw them with other old Venetians. The red color is a little more pronounced. Note that the Indonesian beads have similar large-sized holes, and the holes are clean.

RFLatticeJun17a.jpg (43.4 KB)  RFLatticeJun17b.jpg (28.5 KB)  


Modified by Rosanna at Sat, Jun 10, 2017, 13:52:34

Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Tiny disc beads
Re: Close inspection of Indonesian (Javanese?) beads -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
06/10/2017, 13:54:04

This is another case where the copies are really good. The copies have nice large, clean holes.

RFTinyJun17.jpg (52.8 KB)  


Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
"Bumblebee" pattern
Re: Close inspection of Indonesian (Javanese?) beads -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
06/10/2017, 13:57:13

in this case I didn't have any beads of the same size for comparison, but you can see that the new Indo beads are pretty nice.

There is roughness around the holes that is normally not seen in old trade beads, but the holes are clean.

RFBummblebeeJun17a.jpg (47.0 KB)  RFBumblebeeJun17b.jpg (37.2 KB)  


Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
"Tire tread" design
Re: Close inspection of Indonesian (Javanese?) beads -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
06/10/2017, 14:01:18

There was only one of these, but again, I think if I saw it out of context, I would think it was an old bead.

On closer inspection you can see that the red color is not as intense, and the glass is rougher, on the Indo beads - but there is a lot of variation in the Venetian beads of this design.

RFTireTreadJun17a.jpg (41.9 KB)  RFTireTreadJun17b.jpg (32.4 KB)  


Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Aventurine over red core
Re: Close inspection of Indonesian (Javanese?) beads -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
06/10/2017, 14:05:11

The Indonesians are making very attractive beads with aventurine decoration and with a entire layer of aventurine over a red core.

For this design, the only real contrast is that the red core on Venetian beads of this type is the characteristic brick red. The Indo beads have a much lighter red core. These beads are finished beautifully - no rough glass on the ends, and the holes are large & clean.

RFIndoAvJun17a.jpg (33.3 KB)  RFIndoAvJun17b.jpg (43.4 KB)  


Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Black / pink / aventurine - freaky good!
Re: Close inspection of Indonesian (Javanese?) beads -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
06/10/2017, 14:10:48

Several of these beads made me think about how hard it would be for a new collector to distinguish the new from the old for this style of fancy bead.

Two of the Indo beads had a much redder color than usually found on Venetian beads. The other two (on the right) have cobalt blue cores, but look like black cores at first glance. The holes are a little rough on the two cobalt base beads, but otherwise they are stellar copies.

I don't own any of this particular bead any more, so I can't do a side-by-side comparison, but I'm including a picture that shows several Venetian beads - not in top condition sorry.

RFIndoPinkAvJun17.jpg (47.6 KB)  RFVenetianAvPinkJun17.jpg (54.0 KB)  


Modified by Rosanna at Sat, Jun 10, 2017, 16:09:44

Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Not copies but pretty darn nice beads
Re: Close inspection of Indonesian (Javanese?) beads -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
06/10/2017, 14:13:37

I'm also posting some beads that probably would not be mistaken for Venetian, but are very nicely made.

Here are the green, feather trailed beads - very pretty, and the finish work and clean holes are high quality details.

RFIndoGreenJun17a.jpg (38.4 KB)  RFIndoGreenJun17b.jpg (32.9 KB)  


Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Yeah, these really caught my attention!
Re: Not copies but pretty darn nice beads -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Luann Udell Post Reply
06/11/2017, 19:31:25

Your comparisons and comments are so enlightening--and entertaining!--for such a non-expert as I. I'm glad these will go in the archives, this is a stellar comparison project.

This particular set caught my eye as soon as I saw your post. Beautiful!

Luann Udell artist & writer Ancient stories retold in modern artifacts LuannUdell.com

Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Nice aventurine fancies
Re: Close inspection of Indonesian (Javanese?) beads -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
06/10/2017, 14:15:34

Not sure if there is a similar Venetian bead - but these are nice beads. All were pretty rough around the holes. Seems there is a lot of variation in quality. White mandrel release inside these holes - as was the case for a good number of other beads on the strands.

RFIndoFancyJun17a.jpg (43.3 KB)  RFIndoFancyJun17b.jpg (29.4 KB)  


Modified by Rosanna at Sat, Jun 10, 2017, 14:25:24

Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
OOPS another error -Duplicate photo
Re: Close inspection of Indonesian (Javanese?) beads -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
06/10/2017, 14:19:38

1_RFTinyJun17.jpg (52.8 KB)  


Modified by Rosanna at Sun, Jun 11, 2017, 10:57:10

Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Nice single aventurine-decorated fancy
Re: Close inspection of Indonesian (Javanese?) beads -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
06/10/2017, 14:27:15

Closeup of a single, 9 mm diameter fancy, showing the decoration work. This bead had white mandrel release in the hole and some roughness around the perf.

My conclusion is that some of these beads may be hard to ID once they are separated from other Indonesian-made beads.

Caveat emptor, as usual!

RFIndoSingleJun17.jpg (34.2 KB)  


Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
this was really interesting, thanks for taking the time to show these
Re: Nice single aventurine-decorated fancy -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: judy Post Reply
06/10/2017, 14:37:18



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Thank you for the comparisons and observations!
Re: Nice single aventurine-decorated fancy -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Joyce Post Reply
06/10/2017, 16:53:18

And for sure - once these lose the "provenance" of their original groupings, and get put with beads of other origins it will get more difficult...



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Fascinating. Very educational... and a bit upsetting.
Re: Close inspection of Indonesian (Javanese?) beads -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: birdi Post Reply
06/10/2017, 15:43:57

If these pass through Africa, many bead sellers grind the ends on flat stones. The beads might look more genuine after alterations of one sort or another.



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Already some Africans carry them in a big way....
Re: Fascinating. Very educational... and a bit upsetting. -- birdi Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Joyce Post Reply
06/10/2017, 16:39:54

but they are not getting culturally used in Africa, as far as I know. I think their own powderglass industry has taken off there for local use, at least in a current-fashion sense. More likely, these new Indonesian beads are purchased in Bangkok by Gambian dealers who bring them to the U.S.

It will get very confusing. Some dealers are better at keeping things separated, some are confused already, some aren't concerned about the differences and just want to sell beads. Navigate carefully!

I appreciated a couple of years ago that Ebrima Sillah was making an effort to keep the old Czech vinyl heishi separated from the new Chinese ones, so it was faster for me to get to what I wanted (the old ones)....



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Thank you Rosanna...
Re: Close inspection of Indonesian (Javanese?) beads -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Uwe Post Reply
06/11/2017, 10:04:25

Your comparisons will help...when I buy my Venetians by strands and kilos, there are nearly always some other beads mixed in the strands and the Indonesian beads become more during the last years and they become closer to the originals year by year. If I would make charts of all non-Venetian beads on these strands, new Krobos would take place one, followed by older Krobos...15 years ago Indian beads would take place 3, but today I think this place is for Indonesian beads now...not often I found singles from China,India or beads of plastic, maybe made in Africa, like the blue/white/red oval left corner...Thanks again...:)

DSCI0630.jpg (149.4 KB)  


Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
brown eye beads
Re: Thank you Rosanna... -- Uwe Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: birdi Post Reply
06/12/2017, 19:03:52

I always believe this to be a Venetian bead, or at least made from Venetian canes, approximately 1970s. I thought it was old cane slices used on newer style beads.

BrownEyes-newer.jpg (47.5 KB)  BrownEyesBead-older.jpg (61.5 KB)  


Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Bead on the right is definitely Venetian
Re: brown eye beads -- birdi Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
06/12/2017, 19:08:07

I have a whole strand of them.

The left-hand bead is questionable - the red color is "too bright". But I think I'd have to see it in person.



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
I own some of each, the brown color is the same
Re: Bead on the right is definitely Venetian -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: birdi Post Reply
06/12/2017, 19:29:50



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
end shots....
Re: brown eye beads -- birdi Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Uwe Post Reply
06/13/2017, 04:12:05

Im not 100% sure, that the "eye"-bead is not Venetian, but I have my doubts, because of the very small perforation and even more because of the rounded ends, which are unusuall for Venetians (traded to Africa) of this size, but often to find on Chinese and Indonesian beads.
The blue/white bead is from Ghana, made of crushed Venetian or Czech beads, without a basis but with the typical conical hole...

DSCI0636.jpg (143.8 KB)  DSCI0637a.jpg (147.4 KB)  


Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
blue bead looks Krobo
Re: end shots.... -- Uwe Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: birdi Post Reply
06/14/2017, 10:29:59

The hole is very mis-formed, not like a Venetian bead of this shape. I agree, It looks like a Krobo style bead. Was it made of cane slices instead of beads? Interesting. I don't see evidence of holes in the little striped beads, do you?



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Blue bead made from striped cane chunks
Re: Thank you Rosanna... -- Uwe Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: birdi Post Reply
06/12/2017, 19:10:02

What is the core like on this one? It looks like a Venetian shape. It is covered with short pieces of striped cane that appear to be Venetian. Is it powder glass, or is it a molten glass core?

BlueChubStripedCaneChunks.jpg (25.8 KB)  


Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Last item - found a close Venetian to compare
Re: Close inspection of Indonesian (Javanese?) beads -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
06/12/2017, 12:47:43

I found a Venetian bead image online that has the same decorative elements as the Indonesian single already posted. I'm re-posting here with the Venetian bead so you can see the variations in color and rendition of each element. At a glance, without looking under magnification, it will be easy to be fooled...

Thanks for all the comments!

1_RFIndoSingleJun17.jpg (34.2 KB)  RFVenetianSingleJun17.jpg (31.3 KB)  


Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
very different, to my eye
Re: Last item - found a close Venetian to compare -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: birdi Post Reply
06/12/2017, 16:10:03

They don't look the same to me. The Indo version is not true round and the aventurine is a different color and placement, applied with a heavy hand. This is a very desirable type of bead, but it's value lies in the perfection of it's creation.

The Indo version looks hastily made and missing the point of perfect roundness and fully melted precisely placed decorative elements... but they might get there soon.



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Correct - not the same bead
Re: very different, to my eye -- birdi Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
06/12/2017, 19:14:11

I was using these two to compare the features, not the entire bead. However, look at the picture of the full strand in my first post - and with a quick glance this one looks like a Venetian bead.

The problem as I see it - if I don't have a similar Venetian bead handy to check against, I'm not sure I can identify every new "Venetian tribute" bead. Venetian beads have so much variation in shape and placement of decoration, etc. that in many cases, as presented here, I would be fooled if I did not have the experience of examining the Indonesian beads.



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Didn't recognize it on the strand
Re: Correct - not the same bead -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: birdi Post Reply
06/12/2017, 19:36:08

Oh, I didn't recognize it on the strand. All I saw was green trailing, no pink.



Modified by birdi at Mon, Jun 12, 2017, 19:50:26

Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Thanks!
Re: Close inspection of Indonesian (Javanese?) beads -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: CoinCoin Post Reply
06/13/2017, 13:18:05

Sincerest thanks, Rosanna, for something that must have taken you a lot of time. This is exactly the sort of thing I joined this forum for. Bookmarked!



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
You're welcome!
Re: Thanks! -- CoinCoin Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
06/14/2017, 13:18:56

I find that if I have to explain something I'm looking at to other people, it helps tremendously with my own understanding.

I dislike purchasing new beads so I can study them up close, but I'm finding it's the only way to know for sure what the current "bead technology" is producing from various parts of the world.

This is especially true of plastic beads that are being made (or have been made) to imitate amber, and by extension, to imitate the original imitations like Bakelite and Galalith. Almost impossible to tell what plastic a bead is made from, just by inspecting photos, unless they have the unique "fingerprint" of sparse cracks seen on some old phenolic beads.

Attached is an example showing a phenolic resin bead next to an acrylic (also known as Lucite) bead. I had to reamer-test these before I could tell what they were made of.

PhenolicAcrylic.jpg (71.6 KB)  


Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
It's people like you who make my world richer.
Re: You're welcome! -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Luann Udell Post Reply
06/14/2017, 17:49:46

I'm so grateful you conduct these experiments and put yourself "out there" to explore, compare, learn, and share.

I am wildly drawn to how a bead looks, rather than what it is or what its provancence is. But I owe so much to folks like you, who are passionate about the what, the why, the how.

Thank you, from the bottom of my heart, for caring so much, and for passing on your knowledge and insights.

Luann Udell artist & writer Ancient stories retold in modern artifacts LuannUdell.com

Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Thank you Rosanna for these very helpful comparisons. These are invaluable!
Re: Close inspection of Indonesian (Javanese?) beads -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: karavanserai Post Reply
06/14/2017, 16:57:33

In certain examples I find it very hard to distinguish Venetian from Indonesian. I could be fooled easily. Are Indonesian beads easily available in the US now and are they sold as Indonesian?

martine

Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Good question! I bought my beads from a seller in Israel.
Re: Thank you Rosanna for these very helpful comparisons. These are invaluable! -- karavanserai Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
06/14/2017, 22:29:21

I have not looked for them in the US. I happened to see the two strands when looking for other types of beads, and I was really motivated to have them for closer inspection.

Hopefully I don't have to do this again for a while...



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users


Forum     Back