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Are copyists helping or harming the antique collectible beads market?
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Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
03/13/2017, 20:17:33



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one angle
Re: Are copyists helping or harming the antique collectible beads market? -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: TASART Post Reply
03/14/2017, 08:21:45

having 6 layer Venetian chevrons should answer that question, they have plunged in price since the Chinese flooded the market and the unscrupulous sellers market them as Venetian......I would also venture to guess anybody that paid a lot of money for nice Jatim or Pelangi are kicking themselves as well.......the newest crop of perfect dZi bead copies are not helping either



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Re: one angle
Re: one angle -- TASART Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: birdi Post Reply
03/14/2017, 08:49:06

I've gotten to the point where I exclude the word dzi from my search results, and consider chevron beads with suspicion.

I'm also starting to see imitation Venetian lampwork styles such as ambassador and ghost beads showing up on mixed strands or sold individually.



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The other angle is...?
Re: Re: one angle -- birdi Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Timbuk-2 Post Reply
03/14/2017, 09:57:38

One might argue the copyist is doing archaeology a favour, might help to prevent looting of ancient graves and sites. Such an argumentation would not be valid, since it collides with reality. Collecting (beads) is an addiction. Collectors will always hunt the "real thing", not the copy - no matter the price!

The question to ask is why we (collectors) prefer the original, if copies are so good - leave alone so much cheaper (usually) - that even the expert has (often) a hard time to make a difference.

I think we prefer the ancient and the authentic over the modern copy, because we want to be in close touch with our past, our culture and heritage!



Modified by Timbuk-2 at Tue, Mar 14, 2017, 09:59:40

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Disappointments abound with copies
Re: Are copyists helping or harming the antique collectible beads market? -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
03/14/2017, 17:41:33

I have never heard anyone say, "Oh look at the marvelous copy ( or copies) I just bought for my collection!"

More often I hear the following:

From experienced collectors: "Crap, this is a copy!"

From inexperienced collectors: "Crap, this is a copy?"

From buyers who might some day become collectors: "Crap, how do I tell the difference between between the originals and new copies?"

So maybe the copies are not ENTIRELY crap, but personally I would prefer that I not have to spend time & money buying and studying them so I can be sure not to buy them in the future.

In my experience, hardly any copies are sold as copies. That really is the crux of the issue.



Modified by Rosanna at Sat, Mar 18, 2017, 06:46:02

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Re: Are copyists helping or harming the antique collectible beads market?
Re: Are copyists helping or harming the antique collectible beads market? -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: bsteinberg Post Reply
03/14/2017, 17:47:36

Harming - no question
Although the existence of fakes heightens one's appreciation for the real thing
Fakes make us look closer



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CLOSER LOOK
Re: Re: Are copyists helping or harming the antique collectible beads market? -- bsteinberg Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Timbuk-2 Post Reply
03/16/2017, 14:41:23

EXELLENT point!
Very true (though this is actually a counter-argument against "Harming", what you said first).

Both is true, I guess - just as you say:
Fakes/copies are a bad thing for everybody (but the faker), but since every bad thing has also a positive aspect, they really force us to have a second (and third+!!) look.



Modified by Timbuk-2 at Thu, Mar 16, 2017, 14:41:51

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re: copying or tributes?
Re: Are copyists helping or harming the antique collectible beads market? -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Stefany Post Reply
03/15/2017, 09:56:55

well, collectors may feel threatened, but handcraft and technique researchers who make an enormous contribution to bead knowledge appreciate that the many skills of reproducing the old beads help us learn how they may have been made- even with "primitive" processes, what has been considered valuable/fashionable at different places and epochs in history, and so I do not look down on replicas but see them as tributes.
but i also seldom pay high prices for any beads so don't feel i'm taking a risk- and as you learn you can distinguish more characteristics.

having some fun rediscovering more bits and pieces as i go through and attempt to catalogue my collection... for future use.



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Re: re: copying or tributes- the question of mending and value
Re: re: copying or tributes? -- Stefany Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Stefany Post Reply
03/15/2017, 10:12:03

So is a repaired or glued fragile ancient bead worth more than a complete possibly newer copy?
a designer might not agree-



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sorry duplicate post...
Re: re: copying or tributes? -- Stefany Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Stefany Post Reply
03/15/2017, 10:12:04



Modified by Stefany at Wed, Mar 15, 2017, 10:13:31

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copies or tributes?
Re: re: copying or tributes? -- Stefany Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Timbuk-2 Post Reply
03/16/2017, 14:58:36

Also true!

One only has to think about Tom Holland's contributions, when he discovered how "folded" beads were made (maybe Jamey had a part in t/his discovery too...?) to agree with what you say, Stefany.

Of course, Tom's efforts had an ethnographic background - were not motivated by money. His practical research is therefore a positive contribution, one with a positive connotation to the words faking or copying.



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The Chinese mentality
Re: Are copyists helping or harming the antique collectible beads market? -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: CoinCoin Post Reply
03/15/2017, 20:25:31

Well, you see, it's a cultural difference, all a matter of viewpoint, you know. It's part of the tradition of venerating the past, including old cultural objects. Entire blocks in China are filled with factories cranking out nothing but fakes - metal, glass, paper, you name it. Its not illegal. I guess the Chinese venerate old Venetian glass, American silver dollars, and rare Hollywood movie posters. Very broadminded of them. The coin hobby has divided into three camps, those who cross their fingers and hope the dealers they buy from are both knowledgeable and honest, those who buy only professionally certified coins, entombed in plastic slabs that add considerably to the cost of the item, and those who try to skate down the middle by buying provenanced coins. That means you can identify it from a picture in an old auction catalog, or it comes in a distinctive envelope in the style of a known collector. And by the way, as one of those supposedly honest and knowledgeable dealers in Chinese coins, I freely admit that the quality of the fakes has gotten way beyond my abilities.

How many beads or strands are provenancable? What you see at a site like Picard? That's .01% of what's out there. Rough times ahead for collectors. There's already one African Trader, Md. Dr., who "specializes" in Chinese knockoffs.



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Um...the very first "Venetian style" Chinese chevrons were commissioned by an African trader, 2006.
Re: The Chinese mentality -- CoinCoin Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Joyce Post Reply
03/15/2017, 21:02:46



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The Chinese? mentality~
Re: The Chinese mentality -- CoinCoin Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
03/15/2017, 21:14:46

While shopping on Liulichang Street in Beijing, I was offered a convincing "American" one hundred dollar bill for fifty dollars It was in a shop window I did not buy it

Regarding most antique beads, I think it is possible for an advanced dealer to learn to tell the difference But it is challenging for the forthright seller to teach an uncertain collector

Perhaps it is like listening to the news and trying to figure who is faking whom The Chinese are not alone in this



Modified by Frederick II at Fri, Mar 17, 2017, 03:10:28

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Fake mentality
Re: The Chinese? mentality~ -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Timbuk-2 Post Reply
03/16/2017, 15:40:59

Japan was a major faker in the 50's and 60's. Most of their early radios and TV's were (mostly) German knockoffs. They got so good ultimately that they are now the leading force in that departement of consumer goods (while the Germany companies - originally their secret teachers - went bankrupt).

Faking can also be justified to some degree, I think.

Some time ago I bought a Louis Poulsen design-lamp in China (https://www.wunschlicht.de/louis-poulsen-ph-artichoke-zapfen-60cm.html?child=74879&utm_source=GoogleShopping&gcurrency=eur&gcountry=de&gclid=Cj0KEQjw76jGBRDm1K-X_LnrmuEBEiQA8RXYZx4-JP8tTYbOHaCfzlwx_MYa1ekTDlbQvjyFgpPcyA0aAtsX8P8HAQ) for ~300$.
The VERY SAME (!!!!!) lamp cost the "criminal amount" of ca. 9.500 Dollars, when bought "as original" in Europe.
I have paid roundabout 30 times less.

The very same is valid for a whole army of design item. Since I paid only 3% of the original price for my lamp I was actually happy - I freely admit - that fakers existed to help me getting this crown-jewel of a design-lamp!

Let's fake it - "face it", sorry - faking is not only taking place in China or in the beadworld, but is an often cancerous aspect in many parts of the arts.

The term "industrial espionage" is an old, but at the same time a very modern phenomenon - done by every single corporation in every single country!

Even the trustworthy German company of "VOLKSWAGEN" begun to fake the parameters of the exhaust waste gases of their Diesel cars. Cost them billions now!

And America...?
They are leading in faking ("re-engineering" called) vehicles from other star-systems! Yes - it's true!



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Reprocop
Re: Fake mentality -- Timbuk-2 Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Timbuk-2 Post Reply
03/18/2017, 05:29:57

A good way to avoid buying reproductions or fakes is to know and understand how the originals are made. Usually a reproduction cannot be made the same way as the original. To wide the gap in materials, labor costs and modern production techniques.

Most of this does not apply to modern fakers of faking ancient beads. That's why things are especially difficult for the buyer of ancient glass!



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