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bead ID please
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Posted by: bonpo Post Reply
09/22/2014, 02:02:29

could someone help me in identifying this 13mm bead?

RIMG1051.JPG (46.8 KB)  RIMG1052.JPG (46.7 KB)  


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Please show more images of this bead and tell us what you think.
Re: bead ID please -- bonpo Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
09/23/2014, 01:18:31



Modified by Frederick II at Tue, Sep 23, 2014, 08:46:46

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Re: Please show more images of this bead and tell us what you think of it.
Re: Please show more images of this bead and tell us what you think. -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: bonpo Post Reply
09/23/2014, 02:56:26

I found it in Nepal, approx 10 years ago. I don't usually buy this type of glass eye beads, so I know very little, but my guess?? looks like a ancient bead, but from what time frame and origin I don't know. (or could be a new copy. )

RIMG1048.JPG (52.4 KB)  RIMG1055.JPG (61.4 KB)  


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I feel it is a very good Chinese fake.
Re: Re: Please show more images of this bead and tell us what you think of it. -- bonpo Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
09/23/2014, 09:13:32

Hello Bonpo,

I have been looking at this bittersweet bead and ruminating for too many minutes.
Although it looks antique, I feel it is a copy...But, I would probably buy it
because it is attractive -and would enjoy studying it further.

Just Fred



Modified by Frederick II at Fri, Sep 26, 2014, 11:23:20

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Re: It is a very good Chinese fake.
Re: I feel it is a very good Chinese fake. -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: karavanserai Post Reply
09/23/2014, 09:40:15

Please Fred, give us a clue what gave it away.
Personally I thought the eyes were fine, but the blue glass and the opening looked much younger. But that is purely gut feeling and I haven't handled these beads so I could be miles away from the truth.

martine

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Sleuthing in the bead market is a lot of fun, really...
Re: Re: It is a very good Chinese fake. -- karavanserai Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
09/23/2014, 09:45:18

Dear Martine,

Buy expensive real ones, and live with them for a awhile…you will learn.
The trouble is: You have to pay the price. -Start at five hundred dollars per bead.

At five hundred dollars per bead, it begins to become cost effective for the copiest.
And today, there is a lot of money in China…and the Chinese are selling to each other.

The question is: Who has the talent and the time to go to that much trouble finessing a fake?
(The answer is: A brilliant Chinese copiest. And there seem to be a lot of them.)

For these reasons, I could also recommend buying cheap, ugly fakes to begin with.
But the problem is: You will end up with a lot of cheap, ugly fakes.

Then compare your pile of expensive real ones with the fakes, and you will know too.
Artistic things cannot be easily taught. They have to be experienced.

I have spent many months shopping in and around the "Curio Cities" surrounding
the Panjiayuan Market in Beijing. I feel this was the right place to begin.

Is an education in Ancient Chinese beads worthwhile? Maybe not. But it is a lot of fun.

Just Fred



Modified by Frederick II at Wed, Sep 24, 2014, 02:14:21

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I have always enjoyed shopping...
Re: Sleuthing in the bead market is a lot of fun, really... -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
09/23/2014, 10:53:47

When I was a little boy, my father knew I liked to go shopping and he advised:

"A boy sent his father a telegram. It read:

'NO MUN. NO FUN. YOUR SON.'

The father replied by telegram:

'TOO BAD. TOO SAD. YOUR DAD.' "



Modified by Frederick II at Tue, Sep 23, 2014, 10:55:58

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sharing knowledge.....
Re: Sleuthing in the bead market is a lot of fun, really... -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: karavanserai Post Reply
09/23/2014, 13:50:41

Thank you for your advice Fred and I understand what you are saying. But as you pointed out this is a long and costly process. I would appreciate if you could just take this bead as a case study and lead us through your elimination process pointing out the distinctive elements that define this bead as a copy.
I'm sure several BCN members will be grateful for this knowledge sharing. Thank you.

martine

Modified by karavanserai at Wed, Sep 24, 2014, 01:58:20

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Re: It is a very good Chinese fake.
Re: I feel it is a very good Chinese fake. -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: bonpo Post Reply
09/23/2014, 14:13:34

Thanks Fred, I respect your point of view. it didn't cost much, so even if its new, I have no regrets.

this is a larger picture for those who wants to make a study from this.

any more opinions and guesses is welcomed. thank you.

RIMG1051-001.JPG (114.8 KB)  


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it was 2 or 3USD. owner knew nothing about it.
Re: Re: It is a very good Chinese fake. -- bonpo Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: bonpo Post Reply
09/23/2014, 14:29:23



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different ones, from Java (again)
Re: Re: It is a very good Chinese fake. -- bonpo Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: hans0621 Post Reply
09/26/2014, 03:58:29

These beads were made on Java ± 2005.
The glass is black and purple (manganese?)
So very different with your bead.
I think there is a great possibility that your bead is an old one.

P9260003_2.jpg (35.9 KB)  


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Thank you. I like your bead. looks nicely made.
Re: different ones, from Java (again) -- hans0621 Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: bonpo Post Reply
09/26/2014, 05:34:10

I have the same feeling.

if its a warring states style bead, yes many replica exists because of high demand.

but what style is this? Roman? Islamic? who would bother to make something unknown?

I couldn't find a specimen that looks like this in any bead book. this is the problem.



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Other option, Djenne
Re: Thank you. I like your bead. looks nicely made. -- bonpo Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: hans0621 Post Reply
09/26/2014, 08:45:32

Islamic, Fustat is an option. Google on Djenne beads. They don't have horned beads but you will find other old beads with the same patina, airbubbles and sharp perforation



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new ones
Re: different ones, from Java (again) -- hans0621 Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: bonpo Post Reply
09/26/2014, 05:54:50

talking about new ones, these were circulating in the markets of Thailand around 2005 or so. I don't know where its made, but a Taiwanese lady was selling it. (as old)

nice but a obvious copy of a ancient eye bead.

RIMG1124.JPG (80.0 KB)  RIMG1125.JPG (87.5 KB)  


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Re: new ones
Re: new ones -- bonpo Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: hans0621 Post Reply
09/26/2014, 07:44:14

Well, they bring me in a warring (no... worrying) state ;-)
Obvious repro's but I don't recognize the place or style were they were made.
I don't think they were industrial made.
Never too old to learn, thank you for showing.
Accompanying bead is made in China ± 2006. Size in mm.

IMG_7250_1.JPG (56.0 KB)  


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Though I deeply respect our Fred, I cannot agree... looks like an ancient stratified eye bead to me.
Re: bead ID please -- bonpo Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: jake Post Reply
09/23/2014, 21:22:54

Also I have acquired ancient glass beads in Nepal that were deeply misunderstood...Nepal has access to an incredibly diverse selection of exchange beads, from India, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, Iraq, China, even Europe...And more.

www.nomadbeads.com

Modified by jake at Tue, Sep 23, 2014, 21:45:37

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I was hoping someone with experience would disagree.
Re: Though I deeply respect our Fred, I cannot agree... looks like an ancient stratified eye bead to me. -- jake Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
09/23/2014, 23:14:45

Jake,
I have missed hearing from you. How are you?

What I am relying on is my intuition based upon visual analysis
of the distribution of surface wear and patina. The point is:
Copyists in China are experts; so it's difficult to be certain.

Obviously, we were not there when this bead was created.
And we cannot know exactly where and when it was made.
Unfortunately, the only way to be certain these days is by
chemical analysis of the glass; today's copies are that good.

If I were to examine it in person, I may be persuaded to feel differently.
When you are visiting Curio City, Beijing, you will see excellent examples.

Just Fred



Modified by Frederick II at Wed, Sep 24, 2014, 01:07:06

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yes
Re: Though I deeply respect our Fred, I cannot agree... looks like an ancient stratified eye bead to me. -- jake Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: bonpo Post Reply
09/24/2014, 01:58:34

I am open to all possibility, and this is such a good study bead.

I know what you mean Jake. I've seen excavated Roman glass beads coming out from dug sites in E.Nepal, as well as lots of Chung dZis and all sorts of Ancient stone beads. I've found the Pyu beads too. it must have been a crossroads of civilization.

having said that, there were lots of ancient beads brought in to Nepal by Afghan dealers in the past few decades. (although they seem to head to China these days.)
so its hard to say where it came from.. but this is the only sample I've seen in Nepal since than.



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Re: yes
Re: yes -- bonpo Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
09/24/2014, 02:10:11

Bonpo,

I am pleased to hear you paid so little. It is a nice study bead.
My concern is the high polish around the aperture compared with
the mat surface of the eyes. Also, the orange stain in the cracks
seems too evenly distributed. Otherwise, it looks good.

I guess I have been a little skeptical of anything which reminds me
of the Chinese reproductions. Just like those who make hasty
assumptions that most copies are coming from Java.

Anyway, we learn more by comparing notes.

Just Fred



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The more I look at it, the more befuddled I am...
Re: bead ID please -- bonpo Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Joyce Post Reply
09/23/2014, 23:28:38

The wear on the bead looks convincing, but the perf is rather "crisp"...
I look forward to more opinions and info from Fred, Jake and others.
Meanwhile, here are many eye bead posts from years past.....


Related link: Eye Bead posts on bcn from 2006 onward......

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Re: The more I look at it, the more befuddled I am...
Re: The more I look at it, the more befuddled I am... -- Joyce Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
09/24/2014, 02:27:29

#1. This "bubble" of glass on the surface bothers me. What is it?

#2. The orange stain seems too even to me. How do others feel about this?

#3. If I understand Martine and Joyce correctly, the disparity between the shiny
translucent dark blue glass and the opaque eyes seems to be a little odd. -I agree.

Bonpo: How do you feel about these considerations? -Since you can actually examine it…

Peace and Love,
Just Fred

Screen_Shot_2014-09-24_at_2.18.18_AM.jpg (21.3 KB)  


Modified by Frederick II at Wed, Sep 24, 2014, 04:08:46

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Re: Re: The more I look at it, the more befuddled I am...
Re: Re: The more I look at it, the more befuddled I am... -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: bonpo Post Reply
09/24/2014, 04:27:05

I have taken some pictures.

its as not as dark as it may seem looking in to the Sun.

and lots of internal air babbles too. is this a common feature for ancient beads??

the orange stain is in fact light coloured sandy dirt, which has stacked in the bursts of babbles.(tiny holes)


RIMG1065.JPG (107.3 KB)  RIMG1067.JPG (82.5 KB)  


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Re: Re: Re: The more I look at it, the more befuddled I am...
Re: Re: Re: The more I look at it, the more befuddled I am... -- bonpo Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: bonpo Post Reply
09/24/2014, 04:30:27

hope this shows the air bubbles.

RIMG1064.JPG (78.7 KB)  RIMG1061.JPG (100.7 KB)  


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Thank you for the extra pictures and the info Bonpo and Fred
Re: bead ID please -- bonpo Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: karavanserai Post Reply
09/24/2014, 10:38:40

This is getting really interesting.
Now is the question if the presence of lots of airbubbles is any indication at all to age????

Anyone?

I personally feel the shaft of the hole quite straight, but that might be just a fact and no indication....

martine

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Tiny bubbles in this well lit bead...
Re: bead ID please -- bonpo Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
09/25/2014, 00:51:35

The particular translucent blue color of this bead with lots of bubbles is characteristic
of 19th & 20th century glass beads, more so than those from ancient times, I believe.

Just Fred



Modified by Frederick II at Sat, Sep 27, 2014, 03:11:05

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I do not understand this idea...See Rosanna's recent post: Islamic verses reproduction photo.
Re: Tiny bubbles in this well lit bead... -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: jake Post Reply
09/25/2014, 19:26:37

www.nomadbeads.com

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Hi Fred~ I received your e-mail, and look forward to understanding your thought. Best, Jake.
Re: I do not understand this idea...See Rosanna's recent post: Islamic verses reproduction photo. -- jake Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: jake Post Reply
09/25/2014, 20:53:25

www.nomadbeads.com

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Dimly lit rooms...
Re: Hi Fred~ I received your e-mail, and look forward to understanding your thought. Best, Jake. -- jake Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
09/25/2014, 23:25:55

Dear Jake,

I like this quote:
"My research is akin to an observer peering into a dimly lit room and trying to discern its contents."
-This is from Robert Liu in reference to Chinese Glass Beads.-
I feel this is an example of the candid dialog we need in order to benefit from this blog.
And I know you have this kind of humility. Which is one of the reasons I respect you.

Knowing I am not an expert, I base my judgment on my intuition formed by forty years
collecting, buying and selling all kinds of beads -especially Chinese and Japanese.
Artistic people are more apt to rely heavily upon their instincts; I am like that.

I have already spent a great deal of time looking at the bead in question...
and a great deal of time thinking about it...and an even greater length of time
typing my detailed opinion to share with others on Beadcollector.net;
I made a screen shot and used arrows to pinpoint my concerns.

It would be very interesting to hear what you have to say...
Disagreement adds wonderful drama to learning about beads.
Kindly take the time to tell us what you are referring to in Rosanna's post
concerning copies of Islamic beads -and tell us how this is relevant.

Your opinion is as useful as mine.

Sincerely,
Just Fred

P.S.
I have done my best.
This is all I can do.
Now I leave the rest
to each of you…



Modified by Frederick II at Sat, Sep 27, 2014, 04:12:48

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lighting a candle
Re: Dimly lit rooms... -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: TASART Post Reply
09/26/2014, 10:00:15

Fred your insight is like lighting a candle and giving us a glimpse through your minds eye into that dimly lit room... all of your input and efforts are appreciated and even if they enlighten just one person, I believe it has been worth it! Keep up the good sleuthing, Thomas



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Re: bead ID please
Re: bead ID please -- bonpo Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: ancient beads Post Reply
09/27/2014, 04:33:42

Dear Bonpo,
I was looking at your bead for quit a while, there is something wrong with it - I will try to explain. The bead was made with premanufactured stratified eyes, that were inserted into concave depressions on the core of the bead. This technique was well known from the third and second century B.C from the north of the black sea area, just at the end of the Greek empire and the beginning of the Roman empire at this area. I haven't seen this technique with the Warring state period on GLASS. I've seen them on a composite but never on glass.

The core of the bead and the eyes have different wear on them. This by its own raises a flag.

The core of the bead is TOO transparent also something I've never seen with Warring state beads.

So all and all the facts don't add up, especially if you bought it in the far east.

Please find attached the first photo is of a "normal" stratified eyes and the second one is premanufactured eye beads from the North Black sea for you to compare.

Live long and prosper,
Yankee

Img7100_North_black_see.jpg (126.8 KB)  1_Img7220.jpg (100.7 KB)  


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Most excellent set of pictures!
Re: Re: bead ID please -- ancient beads Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
09/27/2014, 07:34:56



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thank you for sharing your view!
Re: Re: bead ID please -- ancient beads Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: bonpo Post Reply
09/27/2014, 23:34:45



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Thank you, Bonpo...
Re: thank you for sharing your view! -- bonpo Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
09/28/2014, 00:00:30

Bonpo,

Your bead I.D. exercise was challenging for all of us.
The excellent photography gradually provided clues
we needed to search for agreement about this bead.

We may never know when and where it was made.
But we have better questions and an understanding
of what to consider when looking carefully at a bead.

Subarashii!

Just Fred



Modified by Frederick II at Sun, Sep 28, 2014, 07:15:09

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Fred. thank you for your insights. Ill come back and make a report if I ever discover the truth.
Re: Thank you, Bonpo... -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: bonpo Post Reply
09/28/2014, 10:13:36



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