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Jatim or Majapahit Beads, please advise..
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Posted by: Kajornboonsook Post Reply
09/12/2014, 00:06:59

I've just found and joined this forum. As a new member please advise these beads are good or not..Thank you









Modified by Kajornboonsook at Fri, Sep 12, 2014, 08:33:38

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Welcome to the forum, Kajornboonsook...
Re: Jatim or Majapahit Beads, please advise.. -- Kajornboonsook Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
09/12/2014, 01:45:50

Hi Kajornboonsook,

Although Jatim beads have been successfully reproduced,
I feel that your beads are "good" in the top images;
That is, I think they are genuine Jatim beads.

I have one just like this grey spotted one you are showing.
And I doubt that anyone would go to the trouble of copying
a bead as plain as the one I have. The ones which are copied
tend to be the colorful and classic examples.

I have not seen the black and white beads in the last necklace before.

Just Fred

P.S.
Kajornboonsook, are you Thai? Where do you live? I live in California.
Please introduce yourself. How did you locate us at Beadcollector.net?



Modified by Frederick II at Fri, Sep 12, 2014, 09:55:08

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Re: Welcome to the forum, Kajornboonsook...
Re: Welcome to the forum, Kajornboonsook... -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Kajornboonsook Post Reply
09/12/2014, 02:31:28

Dear Fred,
I am Thai and live in Bangkok. I have collected some beads because I have friends in the artifact protection office in Java. They gave me an acknowledgement of Java Artifacts. However, I am just an amateur collector . Nice to see you here and thank you for comments. I am learning how to edit pictures to the better quality.



Modified by Kajornboonsook at Fri, Sep 12, 2014, 08:35:35

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Re: Re: Welcome to the forum, Kajornboonsook...
Re: Re: Welcome to the forum, Kajornboonsook... -- Kajornboonsook Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Kajornboonsook Post Reply
09/12/2014, 02:32:48

Dear Fred,
I found this website on Google search. Please see the updated topic images again. Nice to meet you here...


Paul



Modified by Kajornboonsook at Fri, Sep 12, 2014, 08:36:42

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Re: Jatim or Majapahit Beads, please advise..
Re: Jatim or Majapahit Beads, please advise.. -- Kajornboonsook Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: hans0621 Post Reply
09/12/2014, 02:00:23

Its also called a Tokkeh bead.
Is it possible to send bigger, more detailed pictures and size?



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What does Tokkeh mean?
Re: Re: Jatim or Majapahit Beads, please advise.. -- hans0621 Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
09/12/2014, 02:09:02

Hi Hans,

What distinguishes this bead as a "Tokkeh" bead?

Just Fred



Modified by Frederick II at Sun, Sep 14, 2014, 22:43:12

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(no text) please delete
Re: Re: Jatim or Majapahit Beads, please advise.. -- hans0621 Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
09/12/2014, 02:09:17



Modified by Frederick II at Fri, Sep 12, 2014, 16:04:47

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Re: Re: Jatim or Majapahit Beads, please advise..
Re: Re: Jatim or Majapahit Beads, please advise.. -- hans0621 Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Kajornboonsook Post Reply
09/12/2014, 03:39:54

Yes, I have adjusted the images quality. Thank you very much.



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Re: Re: Jatim or Majapahit Beads, please advise..
Re: Re: Jatim or Majapahit Beads, please advise.. -- hans0621 Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: hans0621 Post Reply
09/12/2014, 15:10:51

Fred, Tokkeh is a wall climbing lizard. A friend of mine who travelled through Java in the 1980's collecting old beads, mentioned the beads were called Tokkeh by the Javanese people who were selling the beads. 20 years later I heard the same name from the Beadbrothers, who have a big collection of the old beads (and new repro's). Have a look on www.antique-beads-indonesia.com for the old ones.
I agree with Will about the misnaming Majapahit to Jatim beads.

Kajorboonsook, thank you for the better pictures, but I still hesitate to give an opinion about the age of the beads from photographs, sorry



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"Tokkeh"
Re: Re: Re: Jatim or Majapahit Beads, please advise.. -- hans0621 Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
09/13/2014, 14:16:27

Hans,

I recalled "Tokkeh" as a name for the wall climbing lizard. Isn't it a colloquial name derived from the sound they make?
But I don't recall looking at them closely enough to have noticed spots on the lizards. Do they have spots?

Just Fred



Modified by Frederick II at Sat, Sep 13, 2014, 15:50:43

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spots
Re: "Tokkeh" -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: hans0621 Post Reply
09/13/2014, 14:37:29

well...

gecko.jpg (40.7 KB)  


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Geckos
Re: spots -- hans0621 Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
09/13/2014, 15:39:16

Thank you, Hans.

In the future, I will pay closer attention to the house Geckos.

Just Fred.



Modified by Frederick II at Sat, Sep 13, 2014, 15:43:30

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Re: Jatim or Majapahit Beads, please advise..
Re: Jatim or Majapahit Beads, please advise.. -- Kajornboonsook Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Kajornboonsook Post Reply
09/12/2014, 03:32:44

I have edited the image quality. Please re-visit and comment. Thank you :)




Modified by Kajornboonsook at Fri, Sep 12, 2014, 03:34:10

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Re: Jatim, not Majapahit
Re: Jatim or Majapahit Beads, please advise.. -- Kajornboonsook Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Will Post Reply
09/12/2014, 06:39:12

Hi Kajornboonsook,

Welcome! Your beads look genuine to me. I haven't seen the black (or dark blue) and white ones in your last picture before but I wouldn't have serious doubts about them. It may be that the original colour has completely leached out of what is now white glass; this sometimes happens.

The name Majapahit is a misnomer for Jatim beads. They were made in the far east of Java around the middle of the first millennium and have nothing to do with the Majapahit Empire that was centred further to the west and flourished some eight hundred years later.

A word of warning: there are a large number of very convincing fakes nowadays and many of them are to be found in Bangkok.

All the best,

Will

1_JatimsNecklace-s.jpg (38.7 KB)  


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Thank you very much
Re: Re: Jatim, not Majapahit -- Will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Kajornboonsook Post Reply
09/12/2014, 08:23:15

Hi Will,
Thank you very much for all the interesting information. I am very appreciated.








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Dramatically changing my opinion...
Re: Jatim or Majapahit Beads, please advise.. -- Kajornboonsook Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
09/13/2014, 13:55:40

Sawasdee Khap Paul Kajornboonsook,

Before you enlarged the photos,
I was a bit hasty in reaching my conclusions.
After all, I am not intending to play the role of an expert.
I am learning just like everyone else.

But, the more I look at the improved images:,
the more suspicious I am of the beads with color.

The beads with the severely abraded apertures seemed more convincing.
And, it may be possible to achieve this type of devitrification by
leaving a bead in an acid bath for a long time, perhaps a week.

I feel uncomfortable beginning with the blue one.
And, especially the black and orange...and the green and orange one.
The green and orange cylindrical bead is Islamic Era in style.

By making convincing but confusing reproductions, Javanese copyists
have successfully killed their market for antique Jatim beads.
Now you can find bargains in ancient Jatim beads
-if only you could sort them out.

Plain beads are probably not fakes.
So, ugly beads may contain clues!

Do you recall the lyrics from the song:
"If you want to be happy for the rest of your life,
never make a pretty woman your wife.
So from my personal point of view,
get an ugly girl to marry you."
Seriously I'm kidding.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQTveD0xCsQ

Just Fred



Modified by Frederick II at Sun, Sep 14, 2014, 03:48:34

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Re: Dramatically changing/ However thank you
Re: Dramatically changing my opinion... -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Kajornboonsook Post Reply
09/13/2014, 16:55:16

Sawasdee Krub Fred,
Thank you for your comment. I understand that there are a lot of replicas to be careful in all markets nowaday but I am learning to notice the deteriorated glass with calcium stain from some old beads. Can they copie that kind of stain now?

Well, because of my benightedness at the beginning, I did uncarefully put many beads together to clean in the bucket and realized that it's not a good way.

However, it's nice to see you, friends in this forum. If the acid could make glass to be deteriorated with calcium stain as the genuine one, I would stop collecting beads.


Thank you very much again!

Paul



Modified by Kajornboonsook at Sat, Sep 13, 2014, 17:07:45

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Would like to hear more from you...
Re: Re: Dramatically changing/ However thank you -- Kajornboonsook Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
09/13/2014, 17:25:08

Paul,
The history of beads is filled with examples of copies which are now antique.
Going after antique beads (or antique anything) has been discouraging for centuries.

If you feel you have the aptitude -and fortitude- go for it.
Some people are willing to suffer. "No pain, no gain."
It's like gambling. But you get to keep your chips.
Sometimes your beads will turn out to be valuable.
Sometimes your beads will become lessons well 'earned.

Just Fred

P.S. Please make pictures of some of the dealers in Chatuchak.
I am sure we would all enjoy seeing these images posted here.



Modified by Frederick II at Sat, Sep 13, 2014, 17:29:59

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Re: Would like to hear more from you...
Re: Would like to hear more from you... -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Kajornboonsook Post Reply
09/13/2014, 19:17:30

Fred,
"Chatuchak" Weekend Market is quite near to my place. There are several kinds of antique selling but there are lot of fake things. I can take some pictures of the market for our friends but I have never bought any beads from this source.

Well, Antique Collecting is one of my favorite hobbies. I love ancient bronze, Buddha statue, terracotta and votive tablets of Buddha; but beads collecting is something new for me.

Sometimes I tell myself "enough" because it consumes a lot of money ^^"

Even this is beads forum but please let me share some of my antique pictures


Cheers!

Paul










Modified by Kajornboonsook at Sat, Sep 13, 2014, 19:40:06

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I feel that you have an aptitude for collecting antiques.
Re: Re: Would like to hear more from you... -- Kajornboonsook Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
09/14/2014, 01:11:00

Hi again Paul,

I would never suggest that a person should become a collector of antiques.
Because it can be a harsh experience. Even after many years of experience.

But if a person is already doing it, can't seem to stop, and has an aptitude
for art and learning, I would not discourage that collector either.

I have probably spent about sixty days or more shopping the weekend market.
And I would recommend the amulet market on Friday late afternoon.
I feel certain that you most likely already know about it.

There are plenty of experts in Bangkok handy to share a second opinion.
And you are living in one of the world's most important meeting places
for bead dealers and collectors. Bangkok is a wonderful place to learn.

Enjoy,
Frederick



Modified by Frederick II at Sun, Sep 14, 2014, 01:35:44

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Images of the weekend market...
Re: I feel that you have an aptitude for collecting antiques. -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
09/14/2014, 01:59:59



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Video of the Amulet Market...
Re: Images of the weekend market... -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
09/14/2014, 02:26:19


One of the best times to visit hot and humid Bangkok is when the weather drops down
to ninety degrees fahrenheit or thirty two degrees celcius.
And this is usually only in December and January.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2H1qAxneXM



Modified by Frederick II at Sun, Sep 14, 2014, 02:32:41

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Video of glass bead making in East Java
Re: Video of the Amulet Market... -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
09/14/2014, 02:37:28


In Java, the best weather is in June -when the temperature drops down to 80 degrees fahrenheit or 27 degrees celsius.
Normally it is around one hundred degrees and very humid.
Imagine how much warmer when working over a fire:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3re9nkUTtwg



Modified by Frederick II at Sun, Sep 14, 2014, 15:12:18

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Re: I feel that you have an aptitude for collecting antiques.
Re: I feel that you have an aptitude for collecting antiques. -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Kajornboonsook Post Reply
09/14/2014, 06:06:35

Dear Fred,
Yes, Chatuchak is the biggest weekend market in Thailand where is the rendezvous of all wholesale and retail antique sellers.

I don't know much about ancient bead dealers there but I am sure we are able to find the genuine one among plenty of replicas; also the Buddha amulets but there is only 3-5 percent which good. The remaining things are reproductions or even something called "set up" which never really been found with many long tale stories.

Lastly, I would like to thank you very much for all useful information and especially for your friendliness.

Cheers!

Paul






Modified by Kajornboonsook at Sun, Sep 14, 2014, 06:07:58

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Re: Jatim or Majapahit Beads, please advise..
Re: Jatim or Majapahit Beads, please advise.. -- Kajornboonsook Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Bolthouse Post Reply
10/11/2014, 15:40:46

Vibrant clean colors, fresh baked, no patena , beads do not have a ancient smooth wear to them.. typical chinese fakes.. many of the replicas are made in southern Thailand near Puhket



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