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Please help with bead ID
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Posted by: baca-cara Post Reply
09/02/2014, 04:37:14

I have been registered for few years, but I am not knowledgeable enough to participate in your discussions. Today I need your help with a bead ID: I purchased it 10 years ago, size 6,8 cm x 5,6 cm, hole dia 1,2 cm, I purchased as is, didn't even clean it. The blue green end may be glued, while the other fissures and cracks don't seem to be really broken apart

grosse-perle_5-1a.jpg (163.0 KB)  grosse-perle_6-1a.jpg (153.2 KB)  


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more pics
Re: Please help with bead ID -- baca-cara Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: baca-cara Post Reply
09/02/2014, 04:39:30

grosse-perle_7b-1a.jpg (168.5 KB)  grosse-perle_8-1a.jpg (152.9 KB)  


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Re: more pics
Re: more pics -- baca-cara Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: floorkasp Post Reply
09/02/2014, 05:48:48

To me, it looks like an Indonesian made bead, probably made to resemble Islamic period beads. It was probably quite new when you bought it. It is a pretty cool bead.



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Re: Re: more pics - thank you, one more question
Re: Re: more pics -- floorkasp Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: baca-cara Post Reply
09/02/2014, 23:46:11

thank you! For the sake of learning, would you tell me the reasons for your judgement? Brigitte



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A good way to learn is to buy nice fakes...
Re: Re: Re: more pics - thank you, one more question -- baca-cara Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
09/03/2014, 01:09:07

There are no examples like this from the Islamic Era -even if it appeared to be old; and it does not appear to be old at all.

The problems are: The yellow is too bright. And due to lack of proper patina, the other colors are wrong too. The silhouette is too oval. The size is too large. The patina is actually false; the bead has been soaked in acid for a couple of hours, which created stress cracks and an evenly etched surface. An old one would have an uneven patina.

Hopefully this was an inexpensive beginning for you; and now you may be better equiped to train your eye to notice the differences in an old one. But if you should be lucky to find an old one, it could cost a lot of money for a good example. Given the opportunity, most bead collectors would never have the courage to pay in four figures for one glass bead.

May I ask where you found it?

Just Fred



Modified by Frederick II at Wed, Sep 03, 2014, 03:35:16

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By comparison:
Re: Please help with bead ID -- baca-cara Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
09/03/2014, 02:15:08

Your bead is trying to emulate the one circled in this collection of mostly Islamic Era beads.

Islamic.jpg (89.4 KB)  


Modified by Frederick II at Wed, Sep 03, 2014, 02:16:24

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Re: By comparison:
Re: By comparison: -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: baca-cara Post Reply
09/03/2014, 07:17:36

Many many thanks FrederickII! MUCH to learn! This will be a longer answer, please apologize:
I am German, my husband is a very knowledgeable collector of medieval glasses (like drinking glasses etc), and he in general knows much about this kind of glass (but he knows nothing about beads, and I know a little bit, but especially that time nothing about fakes). So he knows how different old glass can look like, depending on the area (ground in most instances), it was found. We purchased this bead in the Netherlands, on the Uetrecht huge flea-market which does take place each year Nov. From a dealer who had mainly dug items, like medieval things and prehistory (stone artifacts among them), which were genuine, we definitely could judge this. This was one of the reasons we thought the bead may be genuine too. The next reason was the yellow color. My hubby thought it is the same as on the Oinochoe (glass jar) from the 6-4 century BC, region of the black sea. Technique also is the same: a sand core, and this combed feather decoration, also similar color combo with bright blue and green and sometimes red or dark blue. We thought we knew enough about old glass in general to be "on the safe side" although we really didn't know enough about old beads! But colors look different in pictures, and we just checked some pictures we have of such jars, most often the yellow is darker, warmer.

I disagree to your judgement that the surface of the bead is eaqually etched. Sorry, my pics may be not the best. The blue-green end: the green is less "pitted" than the blue, and the colored body is almost not etched, it is smooth, with many small holes we thought were air-bubbles in the glass. We thought this bead may originate from a grave, which also would explain the unusual large size. All other reasons you mention, especially the shape, size, also the red color, we agree. With respect to cracks, we thought these are caused by stress when cooling down the glass. We paid Euro 600, which was quite some money for us that time, and it was a risky thing!

I post 3 pictures of GENUINE old glass beads from digs: they all originate from a Frankish - Merovingian grave yard which was located near my hubby's hometown. It was partly destroyed by power shovel in the late 1960s. Burial objects and human bone lay in the open, and my hubby just collected the beads. The large one is a Roman glass bead (3,3 x 2,4 cm) which was given to the Frankish person for his last journey, the other three are Frankish, the two large ones look like new beads (length 1,0 and 1,1 cm). What would you think without this story? If you would see them on ebay, would you buy?

fränkisch_1_1-1.jpg ( bytes)  fänkisch_1_2-1a.jpg ( bytes)  


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Re: Re: By comparison: roman glass bead
Re: Re: By comparison: -- baca-cara Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: baca-cara Post Reply
09/03/2014, 07:19:05

römisch-perle_1-1a.jpg ( bytes)  


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Re: Re: By comparison:
Re: Re: By comparison: -- baca-cara Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: floorkasp Post Reply
09/03/2014, 08:27:37

I always love a long reply.
Interesting stuff.
About the original bead. Sorry to say, but pretty sure it is pretty new. Some of the best replicas of Islamic beads come from Indonesia. A great website to have a look at some new ones is posted below. Your specific bead, btw, is not on there. If you are not too far from the Netherlands, you may be able to go to the Tribal Jewelry fair on September 28 in Amsterdam. The seller I am linking to will also be there. We will also get together with some of the people on this forum for lunch and/or dinner. Email me if you would like to know more.

When these types of replicas were first made in Indonesia (some debate about this, probably around 10 to 20 years ago) there were quite a few issues with the glass cracking. So even the cracks are consistent with it being a replica. You could bring it on the 28th to be sure and let us have a look at it. It is never 100% sure from a picture.

The other beads you show. The three small ones look genuine to me and consistent with the period you mention. The large melon bead, I am not so sure. Not because it is a clear fake, but because I find it very difficult to tell age with these beads. They are a fairly basic shape and style that was made in many eras and places. I have even made beads that look like it. I am not very knowledgable in telling from the surface if the glass has aged. But probably your husband is?



Related link: Bead brothers

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The "Frankish/Roman" beads are genuine.
Re: Re: By comparison: -- baca-cara Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
09/03/2014, 14:15:36

In my opinion, your "Frankish/Roman" beads are all right in size, color, texture and shape; I would feel confident buying them from a photograph because there is clear precedence for these types.

But most often, I cannot describe why I feel something is wrong -as if words get in the way. I feel intuitive -based upon experience.

Just Fred



Modified by Frederick II at Wed, Sep 03, 2014, 22:29:56

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A pic of an actual Indonesian "replica" would be useful
Re: Please help with bead ID -- baca-cara Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
09/03/2014, 10:47:09

Glass bead making being the kind of craft it is, seems unlikely to me that a bead maker would have used all his/her glass to make just one bead. Surely others exist.

Who has some pictures of recent Indonesian beads to compare to this one?
One picture, ten thousand words.



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Learning about beads is an expensive hobby.
Re: A pic of an actual Indonesian "replica" would be useful -- beadiste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
09/03/2014, 13:57:33

A clever copiest would make just one or two and place them carefully.

It's an obvious and natural assumption-although hasty- that good copies are all coming from East Java.
East Javanese glassworkers make too many multiples to pass copies dishonestly.

If there are persons who can reveal this ruse, it is unlikely that they would make their presence known.

We all get burned once in awhile.

Just Fred



Modified by Frederick II at Wed, Sep 03, 2014, 14:51:24

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Thank you all for your input....
Re: Learning about beads is an expensive hobby. -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: baca-cara Post Reply
09/04/2014, 07:41:05

... it is very valueable to me! I do believe you, I have read too many fake stories here in the forum to not believe in your knowledge. I jump in here from time to time and just read newest posts or so. But my husband still has "...but, but...."

If someone found a picture of a comparable bead would be great.

Thank you too for the link, I didn't know the Dutch website, it's a pleasure to browse, and I certainly will be buying some of the replicas, just because they are gorgeous and for reasonable prices.

With respect to the beads shown by me, thanks for your comments! floorkasp, you are right, the Roman bead is of very common shape, popular up to today, it is really difficult to judge at all. the soil they were deposited in was very good, not aggressive, so almost all beads are excellently preserved. . The small yellow one is the worst of the entire lot, there are more of this type, but different glass composition, and as well preserved as the other beads. There even were several amber beads unbroken and in great condition for their age (6th century AC)

Brigitte



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An actual Indonesian "replica" would be useful
Re: A pic of an actual Indonesian "replica" would be useful -- beadiste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: hans0621 Post Reply
09/04/2014, 10:12:20

Well, these are beads made in East Java just before 2005. these beads are smaller ±20mm length
But I have my doubts of the Baca Hara bead is made in Indonesia.
In a not obvious way to me, there's a different.

IMG_5986_1.jpg (59.7 KB)  IMG_6061.jpg (72.9 KB)  


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and another one
Re: An actual Indonesian "replica" would be useful -- hans0621 Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: hans0621 Post Reply
09/04/2014, 10:13:12

IMG_6080.jpg (69.7 KB)  


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"Rechercher s'il vous plaît…"
Re: Please help with bead ID -- baca-cara Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
09/03/2014, 15:03:27



Modified by Frederick II at Wed, Sep 03, 2014, 15:10:59

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Re: "Rechercher s'il vous plaît…"
Re: "Rechercher s'il vous plaît…" -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: baca-cara Post Reply
09/04/2014, 07:19:35

okay, here is what my husband said:
it is a ground /dig find, glass is of different composition, that's why the yellow and white look in most places like new and even shiny. The brown spots should be sinter, the soil the bead was deposited in caused some etching. The large round spotted structure on the black glass in the first picture looks a bit strange. All the "marks" on the bead depend on how the bead was deposited in the soil. His gut feeling says it is genuine old. You know yourself that it is difficult to judge only from pictures, better to have the item of interest in your hand. Pictures are bad, before buying he would ask for better pictures. Given that Islamic Near / Middle East currently is the world's most important and best region for tomb raiding and illicit digging, does support the gut feeling. We learn from our media how easy and excellently organized it is to sell such finds from the first one who dug (poor peasant or similar) to worldwide. This is no judgement about the bead as type, age, etc

If I were the seller, I would at least add some description - would be easier to sell, it does cost a bit more than few $

Brigitte



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Re: Re: "Rechercher s'il vous plaît…"
Re: Re: "Rechercher s'il vous plaît…" -- baca-cara Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: floorkasp Post Reply
09/04/2014, 08:20:04

I'll jump in to. I think this bead is also a fake, but made in China. A lot of beads of this type are currently being produced and artificially aged.
The colors are off, and the style is different from ancient beads. Only slightly, but still. The blue and yellow seem too bright. I agree that it is difficult to tell for sure from a picture. A lot of it comes down to having seen a lot of truly old ones, and having seen a lot of fakes. Visiting markets in China where lots of fake beads were being sold, has been a great education for me. However, sometimes, looking at so many fakes you can become too suspicious.......

Here are some images of beads from these markets that I think are similar. (though not exactly the same)

1_IMG_1122.jpg (89.2 KB)  1_IMG_1123.jpg (94.5 KB)  


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Re: Re: Re: "Rechercher s'il vous plaît…"
Re: Re: Re: "Rechercher s'il vous plaît…" -- floorkasp Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: baca-cara Post Reply
09/04/2014, 08:45:24

floorskap,you could very well be right! But this was not the judgement in question. My husband cannot judge type of this bead, region of original production and so on. He only looked at the pictures with HIS knowledge about glass which may originate from digging. So, he only looked at the glass itself. So, the bead HAS typical marks of being deposited in ground. But one need to see this in person to be SURE. The sinter spots in fact could perhaps easily washed off (sign of fake), all the "ancient" ground deposit marks may be too irregularily distributed for the bead to haven been a real dig find, aso. And To get the entire picture, you must add your knowledge too, which is more about the bead itself and the history of faking! At least that's the way we understood your question, and that's the reason we purchased this large fake bead - we have only a part of knowledge,an important part is missing, so we have at least one blue eye - not good for questionable beads buying :)
Brigitte



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Re: Re: Re: Re: "Rechercher s'il vous plaît…"
Re: Re: Re: Re: "Rechercher s'il vous plaît…" -- baca-cara Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: floorkasp Post Reply
09/04/2014, 09:13:38

It is indeed about putting knowledge together. We all have pieces of the puzzle, and only whenever we put another piece together, we start getting the whole picture. I know very little about how glass degrades, but I have seen quite a few fakes.

About faking the 'dug up look': At the same markets, They also used a very simple way of making beads look old and coming from a dig. Just stick some brand new beads in the mud, and make it seem as if you just dug them up....

CIMG1350.jpg (64.1 KB)  CIMG1335.jpg (63.5 KB)  


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Another example of modern Chinese beads
Re: Re: Re: Re: "Rechercher s'il vous plaît…" -- baca-cara Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: hans0621 Post Reply
09/04/2014, 09:52:36

Collected these 15 years ago.
In that period they made also very nasty phoenician face beads, aged as well.
Didn't buy them, too ugly.

IMG_7765.jpg (61.4 KB)  


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I believe the only convincing copies from Indonesia are the Jatim replicas...
Re: Please help with bead ID -- baca-cara Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
09/04/2014, 19:38:03

It is often said that Indonesian beads are usually from the city of Jember.
Having traveled in East Java with Jamey Allen and James Langton, I find
that there is a cottage industry of bead making in a variety of villages.



Modified by Frederick II at Fri, Sep 05, 2014, 03:06:40

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Possibly a repro bead made in Syria...
Re: Please help with bead ID -- baca-cara Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Joyce Post Reply
09/04/2014, 22:53:33

it looks different from the Java material, and not Chinese either....



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thank you.........
Re: Please help with bead ID -- baca-cara Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: baca-cara Post Reply
09/06/2014, 09:20:36

Thank you Just Fred, Hans - also for showing the pictures - and Joyce. So, to sum up, Just Fred, you think my fake bead is not made on Java, and Joyce, you think it may have been made in Syria. So, that's something to "work" with. Still, if anyone of you accidently would find a similar bead to mine, I would be grateful for a post with picture here.

Brigitte



Modified by baca-cara at Sat, Sep 06, 2014, 09:36:34

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Re: Please help with bead ID
Re: Please help with bead ID -- baca-cara Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Will Post Reply
09/06/2014, 13:58:42

Some random thoughts and questions:

Thanks, everyone for this interesting thread. Sorry to be so late getting into it.

Brigitte, as you say, your bead appears to be “core-formed” - which means the glass has been trailed, shaped and marvered around a clay core. That certainly seems to be true from what one can see of the perforation. But that technique, which was used for the making of Hellenistic alabastrons in the first millennium BCE, was never, as far as I know, used for making any beads that resembled yours. Beads such as the beautiful one on Fred’s necklace are, as I understand them, wound, trailed, combed and pinched (is that the right word for the vertical indentations?), and they almost always have applied glass rings around the perforations (usually yellow, sometimes green). So like many reproductions, your bead seems to imitate the appearance but not the technique of an ancient bead.

I don’t think your bead resembles any of the reproductions of west Asian beads that I’ve seen in recent years in East Java. Sometimes it seems as though we’re attributing all the fakes that appear to Java (which I guess testifies to the adaptability of the beadmakers there), but, like Joyce and Hans, I think this bead is much more likely to be from Syria or Lebanon. It looks very similar to me to the fake alabastrons that are produced for the antiqities market. I’ll attach a photo of one that I bought there about fifteen years ago. I got it in a glass factory in Beirut for $10 or so, and later the same day I saw an almost identical one (no more convincingly aged) selling for $1300 - which would have been cheap if it had been authentic. You’ll notice how similar the cracks are to the ones in your bead, with the same residue of what I imagine is a mix of limepaste and adhesive.

As Fred says, the size of your bead ought to be one of the suspicious elements with your bead. I certainly haven’t seen an authentic one that was anything like as large. But I don’t have a problem with the yellow. Though most ancient yellow glass is a more mustardy colour, there are many lemon shades in ancient canes too.

As to the bead that you asked for opinions on, Fred, like you I have my doubts. I’ve bought authentic items from this seller in the past (not beads), and that’s always a positive factor for me. But ithe bead itself is quite puzzling. The design seems more Phoenician than Islamic in its strictness, but the glass, especially the yellow, doesn’t resemble the Phoenician glass that I know at all. (It doesn’t look like the modern Chinese copies either.) But it’s very pretty and very well done. Fred, can I ask what your own suspicions are based on?

And finally, Fred, could we please have some close-ups of that beautiful necklace?

All the best,

Will

FakeAlabastron.jpg (45.9 KB)  


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I am not ready for my close up, Mr. Will...
Re: Re: Please help with bead ID -- Will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
09/06/2014, 14:50:22

I'm busy preparing to attend a gathering tomorrow in honor of the late Naomi Lindstrom.

As soon as possible, I will try to make close up photographs of the Islamic Era beads.

Just Fred



Modified by Frederick II at Sat, Sep 06, 2014, 17:12:00

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Lots of great information
Re: Re: Please help with bead ID -- Will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: floorkasp Post Reply
09/07/2014, 01:21:11

I have been going through images I have of Indonesian copies, and the more I was looking, the less sure I am of this bead indeed being an Indonesian replica.
Guess you are right, Will, we (including me) sometimes jump to Indonesian made beads too quickly.



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Yep.....
Re: Lots of great information -- floorkasp Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Joyce Post Reply
09/07/2014, 07:49:59



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Re: Re: Please help with bead ID
Re: Re: Please help with bead ID -- Will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: baca-cara Post Reply
09/08/2014, 07:42:17

thank you so very much for your very interesting post, Will! Yes, my bead is made around what is called sand core, and my husband did know that type of alabastrons - I said earlier that his collecting interest is antique glass glasses, jars etc. He remembered the sandcore technique, which was one reason for us to think the bead would be authentic, we just thought that beads were made that way too. I already said, never again invest money in something of which you know only half of the story :)

Anyway, you are most probably right with the residue on the bead. We removed a small amount from the outside of the bead, was very easy, and it looks very similar to the one on your jar, only not as bright, just more dirty.

I am so grateful for all your help. Even if the result is a bit depressing, I must no longer be puzzled over the bead's authenticity. And I learned a lot!



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Here is a comparable copy I was able to find through a Google search
Re: Please help with bead ID -- baca-cara Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
09/08/2014, 22:51:30

Hi Brigitte and Will,

This is a recent copy also. But I do not know where it was made. This "zig zag" pattern bead differs from baca-cara's "arcaded" or "festooned" bead in that it is a combed in both directions like my genuine Islamic one. And it has caps on both sides.

In antiquity, these types were sometimes capped on one side only; when like beads were strung together, it looked appropriate. Sometime afterward, a cap could be added around the other aperture to make a solitary bead appear to be complete.

Usually, it is difficult to feel certain of the antiquity of a bead without seeing it in person. And when viewed in a photograph, more experience is required. I have a great deal of empathy for dealers in antiquities; it is gambling at a highly artistic level, I feel. And very intuitive.

Just Fred

Keynote.jpg (20.8 KB)  


Modified by Frederick II at Tue, Sep 09, 2014, 23:52:09

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Chemical analysis of glass...
Re: Here is a comparable copy I was able to find through a Google search -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
09/09/2014, 00:21:44

The following is an example of advanced research through chemical analysis which may become popular in the future. Hopefully, someday copies will become easier for each of us to identify:


Just Fred



Modified by Frederick II at Tue, Sep 09, 2014, 02:55:55

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Re: Chemical analysis of glass...
Re: Chemical analysis of glass... -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
09/09/2014, 00:32:34

Word.jpg (66.3 KB)  One.jpg (34.3 KB)  


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Re: Re: Chemical analysis of glass...
Re: Re: Chemical analysis of glass... -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
09/09/2014, 00:33:21

Two.jpg (108.3 KB)  Three.jpg (21.5 KB)  


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Cap on one side
Re: Here is a comparable copy I was able to find through a Google search -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: hans0621 Post Reply
09/09/2014, 09:13:52

I had to dig deep, but I found it.
Even with the mentioned one side capped beads was experimented before 2005 on East Java.
It was never taken in production, you can see why :-)

IMG_4902.jpg (40.0 KB)  


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