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Please help ID this bead.
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Posted by: Mor Post Reply
06/02/2014, 23:22:55

Hello,

I bought it from my friend in Bangkok on 3 years ago. He told me that the ancient bead. The dimension is about 34 mm.x 24 mm. and material is glass. I would like to get your assistance in advising what type of this bead, age,origin and ancient or not.

Thanks in advance for your help.

Mor

DSC_20561-horz.jpg (164.5 KB)  DSC_20591.jpg (120.2 KB)  


Modified by Mor at Mon, Jun 02, 2014, 23:24:13

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wow- this one is really unique! love to learn more...
Re: Please help ID this bead. -- Mor Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Stefany Post Reply
06/03/2014, 00:28:20



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A singular bead...
Re: Please help ID this bead. -- Mor Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Just Fred Post Reply
06/03/2014, 02:27:48

Khrabkhun mak khap, Mor:

Thank you very much, Mor -for sharing this beautifully incised bead with us.
It is a good example of the sophistication in the Bangkok bead market.
Are you feeling suspicious of the antiquity of this bead?
In any case, I am certain that I would enjoy owning it.

Sawasdee Khap,
Frederick



Modified by Just Fred at Tue, Jun 03, 2014, 20:42:33

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Questions
Re: Please help ID this bead. -- Mor Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Will Post Reply
06/03/2014, 09:03:13

Hi Mor,

Belated greeting on my part.

This is a fascinating, curious bead. I don't think it's ancient, and it's certainly not an ancient Southeast Asian bead. The bearded face in profile looks like a modern image to me. I'm still trying to figure out how the bead has been made. It seems to be trying to fit into a tradition of West Asian folded beads, but of course it's not folded. Do you think the black pattern has been overlaid on top of the white glass or has the design been cut into the glass and filled with an oily black material? I'm reminded slightly of the technique that was used in early fakes of Jatim polychrome beads from Java where a monochrome bead was used as a base and the design was cut into it and filled with quite convincing coloured inlays. This is not the same - not at all - and I haven't seen a bead like yours in any of my trips to Java, but it occurs to me that the technique might be similar.

In any case, this is not a fake, since it's not trying to replicate any known ancient bead. It's clever and interesting in its own right. I hope we'll be able to find out more about it.

All the best,

Will



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Re: Please help ID this bead.
Re: Please help ID this bead. -- Mor Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Just Fred Post Reply
06/03/2014, 11:46:59

Will and Mor...

The iconography on this bead suggests an ancient coin, -perhaps with the profile of Alexander the Great with horseback rider on the opposite side. The folded look of the engraved glass suggests Islamic Period.

We do know that the ancient technique of incising or excavating and filling the surface of a bead has become commercially revived during the last five years in Pakistan. In Pakistan, there are many highly skilled refugees from Afghanistan who are replicating geometrically incised carnelian beads and filling them with composition. These highly skilled craftsmen are capable of the sophistication found in this commercially attractive large bead/pendant.

There are many Afghani bead dealers in Bangkok who are clever and ambitious. And they receive incentive from a well established clientele. Because this bead is a singular example, my concern is that it may have been recently made, artificially patinated, and unwittingly resold as "ancient."

Frederick



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Color and iconography
Re: Re: Please help ID this bead. -- Just Fred Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Just Fred Post Reply
06/03/2014, 12:03:46

Hello Mor,
Looking into the hole, is the base color of the glass white, black or cobalt blue?
Are you certain it is glass?...Here are examples of ancient coins for comparison:
Frederick

coins.jpg (28.7 KB)  


Modified by Just Fred at Tue, Jun 03, 2014, 20:44:21

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Mixed responses
Re: Please help ID this bead. -- Mor Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Carole Morris Post Reply
06/03/2014, 15:22:23

When I first looked at this bead I was struck by the similarity of this and polymer clay replication of folded beads. Jamey did various workshops with us in the UK many years ago on using PC to replicate folded islamic type beads. Would it be easier to make this face image in polymer clay than glass?

Then I looked at the rider image. The iconography in this (if you look at the rider and a line which seems to be a spear), is St George and the dragon.

Just some initial thoughts! No conclusions.

Carole



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That's close to what occurred to me...
Re: Mixed responses -- Carole Morris Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Luann Udell Post Reply
06/03/2014, 17:24:10

(although I know nothing about this) but I thought the horse looked like Medieval imagery--like the horses in the Bayeux Tapestry!

Not that a bead that looks like a French embroidery means anything.... :^)

odo_bayeux_tapestry_(400x290).jpg (171.7 KB)  
Luann Udell artist & writer Ancient stories retold in modern artifacts LuannUdell.com

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No, wait--Assyrian!
Re: That's close to what occurred to me... -- Luann Udell Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Luann Udell Post Reply
06/04/2014, 08:13:54

assyrian_horses_(500x352).jpg (171.4 KB)  
Luann Udell artist & writer Ancient stories retold in modern artifacts LuannUdell.com

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Spear not a bow!
Re: No, wait--Assyrian! -- Luann Udell Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Carole Morris Post Reply
06/04/2014, 15:14:43

Definitely a spear, not a bow!
Have another look! LOL
Carole



Modified by Carole Morris at Wed, Jun 04, 2014, 15:16:05

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St George image
Re: Spear not a bow! -- Carole Morris Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Carole Morris Post Reply
06/04/2014, 15:24:10

There are hundreds of pictorial images of St George slaying the dragon - all with a rider, a long spear and a dragon on the geound. The one I've previewed is just one of many. This seems to me to be so much like the image on the bead?

Carole


Related link: http://www.art-prints-on-demand.com/kunst/novgorod_school//Icon-of-St-George-and-the-Dragon.jpg://
Modified by Carole Morris at Wed, Jun 04, 2014, 15:24:52

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I was paying more attention to George's beard & the horse.
Re: Spear not a bow! -- Carole Morris Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Luann Udell Post Reply
06/06/2014, 12:48:14

But yeah, it's definitely a bow. :^)

Luann Udell artist & writer Ancient stories retold in modern artifacts LuannUdell.com

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Did you buy this from a dealer who also sells in the basement of the Pratunam market?
Re: Please help ID this bead. -- Mor Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Just Fred Frederick Post Reply
06/03/2014, 21:09:20



Modified by Just Fred at Tue, Jun 03, 2014, 21:10:48

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No,I don't.
Re: Did you buy this from a dealer who also sells in the basement of the Pratunam market? -- Just Fred Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Mor Post Reply
06/03/2014, 23:24:32

No,I don't.
I buy from the man that I know him on Thai beads website.

Mor



Modified by Mor at Tue, Jun 03, 2014, 23:30:36

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Thanks for all comments,
Re: Please help ID this bead. -- Mor Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Mor Post Reply
06/03/2014, 23:29:27

Thanks for all comments,

I agree with Frederick about the sophistication in the Bangkok bead market.
You can find many kinds of beads but you probably will not get the actual information.

In the picture, the rider that Frederick says that similar images of Alexander the Great.
I think patterns on the beads indicate Persian art.
The man has a long beard and wears a hat look like Persian hat, reminds me of Darius III the last king of the Achaemenid Empire of Persia.
Because the pictures of him are big eyes just like the picture on the bead.
The horse picture on back side shows the muscle clearly.

Will's comments about the technique Jatim polychrome beads.
I found some beads on ebay, It seems that using techniques similar my bead. It was found in Mali.
I believe this bead isnít Southeast Asia beads, sometime itís West Asian beads as Will told.

Unfortunately, I keep this bead in my home at Nong Khai.
Now I can not to see inside the hole, according to the Frederick told.
Opportunities when I return to Nong Khai, I will check again.

I have searching for St George and the dragon picture as Carole mentioned that the same really.
I still need to see underside of the beads again.
And thanks for the idea about the horse looked like Medieval imagery by Luann Udell.

Thank you very much,
Mor

PS. I do not worry about this bead, Frederick . Because it looks like a work of art. Ha Ha HaÖ



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Re: Work of art
Re: Thanks for all comments, -- Mor Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Luann Udell Post Reply
06/04/2014, 08:15:55

I really like the black/white layers & imagery, whatever it turns out to be. I forgot to ask, how big is it?

Luann Udell artist & writer Ancient stories retold in modern artifacts LuannUdell.com

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Re: Re: Work of art
Re: Re: Work of art -- Luann Udell Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Mor Post Reply
06/04/2014, 18:12:11

The dimension is about 34 mm.x 24 mm.

Mor



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Original model
Re: Please help ID this bead. -- Mor Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Just Fred Post Reply
06/04/2014, 10:34:24

After his morning shave.

Horse.jpg (35.1 KB)  


Modified by Just Fred at Wed, Jun 04, 2014, 10:39:07

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Re: Original model
Re: Original model -- Just Fred Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Mor Post Reply
06/04/2014, 15:42:41

Thank Fred. Ha Ha Ha....



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Reminded me of this Roualt painting
Re: Please help ID this bead. -- Mor Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
06/07/2014, 08:41:20

OldKingRoualt.jpg (47.0 KB)  

Related link: http://www.wikiart.org/en/georges-rouault/the-old-king-1936

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Assyrian king Sargon, for example
Re: Reminded me of this Roualt painting -- beadiste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
06/07/2014, 08:49:12



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