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Ancient or fakes?
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Posted by: faqrun Post Reply
05/03/2014, 02:39:49

roman_bead.jpg (148.5 KB)  roman_bead2.jpg (68.0 KB)  


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Re: Ancient or fakes?
Re: Ancient or fakes? -- faqrun Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Stefany Post Reply
05/03/2014, 06:44:33

Hi-
i saw them and some others coming up in an auction and to me these ones seem real and in rather good condition...
let us know and show more pictures of them, if you get them!



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Re: Re: Ancient or fakes?
Re: Re: Ancient or fakes? -- Stefany Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: TASART Post Reply
05/03/2014, 07:33:30

I have reservations, the glass has the appearance of Indonesian reproductions.



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Re: Re: Re: Ancient or fakes?
Re: Re: Re: Ancient or fakes? -- TASART Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: faqrun Post Reply
05/03/2014, 09:22:12

I found them in an american auction at the starting price of $200. I think they are suspicious.



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I feel that both are obviously fake
Re: Ancient or fakes? -- faqrun Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick Post Reply
05/03/2014, 13:02:17

Clues:

#1. They should be "rolled pads." This means there should be visible seams.
The top one is hot pinched...and I cannot see the hole in the bottom one.

#2. The harlequin pattern is more even and attractive in ancient Roman mosaic glass.

#3. To me, they appear to be acid etched; the patina looks artificial to me.

Frederick

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They are fakes but not Indonesian productions I think.
Re: Ancient or fakes? -- faqrun Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: shinji Post Reply
05/03/2014, 19:03:02

Thier quorities are different from Indonesian newly made mosaic beads.

And we can find some more fake mosaic beads in the auction.

Unfortunatelly the Mosaic bowl in The following picture was sold as ancient one in e-bay recently.
It has same mosaic with the bead int this thred.

Shinji

mosaicbowl.jpg (157.7 KB)  


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Re: They are fakes but not Indonesian productions I think.
Re: They are fakes but not Indonesian productions I think. -- shinji Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick Post Reply
05/04/2014, 11:58:30

Shinji and Joyce,

If possible, please provide links to the auctions you have mentioned.

Thanks,

Frederick

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The link
Re: Re: They are fakes but not Indonesian productions I think. -- Frederick Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: shinji Post Reply
05/04/2014, 18:13:56

The auction has just ended.
The following link is the result.

Shinji


Related link: http://www.liveauctioneers.com/search?q=mosaic+bead&by_date=2014-05-03T14:35:26.749Z&sort=relevance&dtype=gallery&hasimage=true&type=complete&rows=20

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Re: Ancient or fakes?
Re: Ancient or fakes? -- faqrun Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Floorkasp Post Reply
05/04/2014, 00:53:53

The top one does look like one of the latest generation Indonesian replicas to me. The other one, I do not know.



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Re: Re: Ancient or fakes?
Re: Re: Ancient or fakes? -- Floorkasp Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: shinji Post Reply
05/04/2014, 18:49:32

Hi Floorkasp

If "the latest generation " means 2014 version,I have no idea.
(I have not visited there this year yet.)

I can say I have never seen that kind of mosaic beads in Java until September 2013.

And the same kind of fake(the top one) appeared in market in 2012 at least.
The quality of "the top one" is much better than Indonesian mosaic beads made in those days.
And it looks to be made by different process from Indonesian mosaic beads.

The first picture is the one that appeared in market in 2012.
The sencond picture is Indonesian mosaic beads made in 2012.

Shinji

DSC_000120120106_161108.JPG (119.9 KB)  DSCF49982014-05-05_10-58-26.JPG (94.9 KB)  


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Roger, Thank you for bringing this auction to our attention.
Re: Ancient or fakes? -- faqrun Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick Post Reply
05/04/2014, 20:43:32

Frederick

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Indonesian
Re: Ancient or fakes? -- faqrun Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Will Post Reply
05/04/2014, 23:00:38

Hi everyone,

I hesitate to disagree with Shinji because he knows this stuff so well, but on the first bead at least I think Thomas, Frederick and Floor are right. I can't be sure about the second without seeing the ends.

The first, anyway, appears to be hot-pinched, and that traditional Javanese technique, as far as I know, is only used there for manufacturing these fake "Roman" mosaic beads. The structure of the bead reveals its source.

The colours are typical of Javanese canes too, especially the brown glass which has too little red in it. Incidentally, the colours seem to me to be the same both in the US auction item (which went for $500 - ouch!), and in the replica bead that Shinji found in Java. All that appears different to me is the amount of acid exposure they've been subjected to. The colours in the bowl that Shinji shows seem more typically "Roman" to me.

Actually, I disagree with both Frederick and Shinji on one thing and that is that the canes of authentic West Asian mosaic examples of these beads are more regular in structure. Quite often it's just the opposite, surely. I don't have any examples here to show or refer to unfortunately, but I think we'll find that the black framing glass in the Javanese beads is of a more uniform thickness than in the genuine items, and the patterns generally more regular.

Thanks, Roger, for starting this.

Cheers,

Will



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"Regular" vs."Wobbly"
Re: Indonesian -- Will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick Post Reply
05/05/2014, 00:49:37

I agree that it could be argued that the overall pattern on the reproductions are more regular. But, the black lines are more wobbly in the Indonesian examples than the ancient Roman ones. And this is because they were fired at a higher temperature.

Frederick

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Re: Indonesian
Re: Indonesian -- Will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Shinji Post Reply
05/05/2014, 08:04:14

Hi will

It's always pleasure for me to talk with you here.
And thank you for your hesitation.

I have seen several hundreds kinds of mosaic beads newly made in Java,
But the quality of the top one don't look any new Indonesian mosaic beads I have seen.

That's the only reason why I can't stop believing I'm right.
So if someone show me the right examples I can change my mind easily
in this case.
Have you ever seen that kind of beads made in Java?

By the way the patina on the bowl looks artificial to me.
And quality of mosaic is same as the beads to me.
I think both(the bowl and beads) are fakes and the source of the bowl and the beads are same.
And the source is not Java.
Javanese don't make that kind of bowl as far as I know.
I don't know anyone who could make that kind of beads in Java 2 years ago.
This is my current idea.

The following is a reference.

I know the reason why that kind of Roman style mosaic beads appeared in Java suddenly.
They didn't know about that kind of beads before.
3-4 years ago one Japanese guy who can speak Javanese tried to start new business in Indonesia.
He brought some books about old beads from Japan and stayed at local village in east Java for several months and tried local beads maker to imitate popular ancient beads.
At first those kinds of beads were being sold only in Japan.
But they started to make more and more and tried to sell to other people.(This is normal way...)
Nowadays you can get them easily as much as you want.


Shinji



Modified by Shinji at Mon, May 05, 2014, 08:57:10

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Contemporary reproductions, pros and cons:
Re: Ancient or fakes? -- faqrun Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick Post Reply
05/05/2014, 00:18:01

I find that the Javanese bead makers and Balinese salesmen (for the most part) are honestly representing these beads as contemporary reproductions. And they are selling them at an honest price.

The word "fake" should be applied only when they are being misrepresented and offered at a prices which suggest that they are ancient.

From another perspective, the Javanese are providing the bead world with an opportunity to collect contemporary pieces for comparison. -And to cultivate connoisseurship among collectors.

Frederick

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Re: Contemporary reproductions, pros and cons:
Re: Contemporary reproductions, pros and cons: -- Frederick Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Shinji Post Reply
05/05/2014, 08:41:53

Hi Frederick

I agree with you.
And we should take care the fact that there are many kinds of quality of replicas in Java also.

One is normal replica.
Another is well-done replica.

The quality between them is completely different.
So better sales man is selling two kinds of replica together.

"this is new, this is old."

But sometimes both of them are new....haha.

Shinji



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I believe that none of the misrepresented beads have actually sold in this auction.
Re: Ancient or fakes? -- faqrun Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick Post Reply
05/05/2014, 00:20:25

Frederick

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Actually...
Re: I believe that none of the misrepresented beads have actually sold in this auction. -- Frederick Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Will Post Reply
05/05/2014, 02:02:08

... according to the catalogue, and also to the Live Auctioneers link that Shinji provided above, the top bead went for $500 and the lower blue one made $150.

W.



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You are right.
Re: Actually... -- Will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick Post Reply
05/05/2014, 15:09:24

Frederick

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Image of an ancient Roman example:
Re: Ancient or fakes? -- faqrun Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick Post Reply
05/05/2014, 01:11:13

This ancient example is not the "Harlequin Pattern" but exemplifies straighter black lines.

ancient_Roman.jpg (21.8 KB)  
Frederick

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Re: Ancient or fakes?
Re: Ancient or fakes? -- faqrun Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: ancient beads Post Reply
05/05/2014, 10:07:35

Hello
I am pretty sure that both beads are fake.
I don't know where they are from.
Please find attached original beads photos(from my collection) in two versions for a comparison.
All the best,
Yankee.

12_Roman_period_64_BC-330_AD_._1.jpg (105.2 KB)  


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Re: Re: Ancient or fakes?
Re: Re: Ancient or fakes? -- ancient beads Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: ancient beads Post Reply
05/08/2014, 08:46:20

12_Roman_period_64_BC-330_AD_Egypto_Roman_Eastern_Mediterranean_1st_2nd_AD_Checkerboard_bead._Early_Roman_period_and_Later.6.jpg (115.4 KB)  


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Yankee, you have an amazing collection. Thank you for sharing!
Re: Re: Re: Ancient or fakes? -- ancient beads Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
05/08/2014, 09:50:25



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Thank you all for your wise comments and ideas. It's a real pleasure to read you.
Re: Ancient or fakes? -- faqrun Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: faqrun Post Reply
05/05/2014, 10:30:14



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Fakes
Re: Ancient or fakes? -- faqrun Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: sisterray Post Reply
05/05/2014, 12:09:02

I, too, saw them (although I hadn't remembered where I saw them) and I decided they were fakes. I can post several examples of authentic ancient mosaic beads if anyone is interested. But I'm afraid I'll be taking pictures from my iPad, as I don't have a working camera at the moment.

Rachel



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Please post images.
Re: Fakes -- sisterray Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick Post Reply
05/05/2014, 14:46:12

Frederick

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