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Tucson Treasures - very long Venetian strand
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Posted by: waneeho Post Reply
02/22/2012, 22:06:39

Here is a 50 inch long strand of Venetians from Degumay. For me as a first timer at Tucson, this strand was like a dream. First photo is the entire strand in all its beauty. The second photo shows some of my favorites from the strand, including the long (20mm) yellow with the strange white/black eyes - which I think are murrine but the black portion has indistinct edges, almost like powder glass or really rough composite construction. Any thoughts? More beads in following posts.
Paul

2414-MixedTrades_LongDegumayWeb.jpg (140.9 KB)  2414-MixedTrades-CloseupDegWeb.jpg (155.5 KB)  


Modified by waneeho at Wed, Feb 22, 2012, 22:33:52

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Tucson Treasures - Mystery Venetian Zebras
Re: Tucson Treasures - very long Venetian strand -- waneeho Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: waneeho Post Reply
02/22/2012, 22:16:20

Degumay said this was the first strand of this type he had ever seen. I fell in love, then upon close examination it becomes quite apparent that these are VERY UNVENETIAN-LIKE. First photo - the full strand - notice nearly every bead has beveled ends, and at least some wear damage on edges, as any good African Trade should. Second photo - closeup, the decoration is applied as a unit, a bit like the "pad-rolled" beads which have been discussed here before. The stripes are part of a separate unit of glass, I believe, and it is at least 3 to 4mm thick. It is quite apparent that there are at least two separate units of the decoration layer (or else it wraps more than once around the bead), and they form one or more concentric seams around the bead. Sure would like to know if anyone knows this bead's origin/age. Jamey?

2412-ZebraMystery_DegumayWeb.jpg (148.1 KB)  2412-ZebraCloseup_DegumayWeb.jpg (91.7 KB)  


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Tucson Treasures - Chinese Toggles
Re: Tucson Treasures - Mystery Venetian Zebras -- waneeho Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: waneeho Post Reply
02/22/2012, 22:26:23

Known as toggles, these are the equivalent of the Japanese netsuke, and some researchers say these predate the netsukes. First photo - a freeform piece of wood with a knot, shaped a bit and drilled. This would hang at the bottom of the cord and prevent the inro (container) from pulling out from under the belt (Fred, correct me if I don't describe this accurately). I have searched for quite some time to find examples of these that were typical of those used by country people or farmers, and lo and behold Joe Loux had them at Gem Mall. The first one is 2 inches (50mm) long, the patina is stark-raving gorgeous. The second photo is a more sophisticated example, carved as a monkey (35mm x 30mm), also with rich patina. Since these are ornaments which are perforated and hang from string or cord, it seems they should be acceptable in this forum.

2400A-ChWood_ToggleJLouxWeb.jpg (82.4 KB)  2401A-ChMonkey_ToggleJLouxWeb.jpg (139.7 KB)  


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Tucson Treasures - Silver Beads
Re: Tucson Treasures - Chinese Toggles -- waneeho Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: waneeho Post Reply
02/22/2012, 22:31:31

Beautiful and heavily worn silver beads, also from Joe Loux. Joe thought they were from Ladakh, but I have some from Afghanistan that are very similar. Can anyone tell me for sure? They average around 20mm diameter, and are quite hefty. Tucson was really fun, and set my finances back far enough that I may recover by next year's show.

2397-SilverDrum_BeadsAfgha_Web.jpg (151.5 KB)  


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Far out monkey!
Re: Tucson Treasures - Chinese Toggles -- waneeho Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: nishedha Post Reply
02/23/2012, 05:36:45



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It's wonderful to see beads I have NEVER seen before.
Re: Tucson Treasures - Mystery Venetian Zebras -- waneeho Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Carl Dreibelbis Post Reply
02/23/2012, 05:44:00



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Mystery Venetian Zebras
Re: Tucson Treasures - Mystery Venetian Zebras -- waneeho Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Joyce Post Reply
02/23/2012, 06:02:45

Fabulous finds, Paul! Nor have I seen these before. But they seem very within Venetian ability - a non-glass worker's vision of how they may have been made - looks like a long-ish black base was "wrapped" with black and white striped & twisted glass, then segmented into individual beads. Very interested to hear what others think.

.....And an observation from David...yikes, could it be a new Java variety...the weight of the beads may help to tell you, as new Java would be very light compared with Venetian glass.



Modified by Joyce at Thu, Feb 23, 2012, 06:51:55

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Re: Mystery Venetian Zebras
Re: Mystery Venetian Zebras -- Joyce Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: floorkasp Post Reply
02/23/2012, 10:06:03

I have had the chance to look at these beads up close, when I interviewd Paul for my book. Very interesting beads indeed!
They felt Venetian to me. Having held quite a few Javanese beads, I would be very surprised if they were indeed from Indonesia. The surface shows age, and the overall feel is of very well made trade beads.

I remember looking at their sides, and there was a round layer of white glass there. Paul, perhaps you could photograph one from the side, pushing the others on the strand to one side, and show this to others?



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Side View of "Venetian" Zebra
Re: Re: Mystery Venetian Zebras -- floorkasp Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: waneeho Post Reply
02/23/2012, 10:33:08

Hi Floor, thanks for your response. You are right, they have the correct weight and some wear to be African, but I have never seen a Venetian with wrap (or roll)-around decoration - except when an extra long cane is trailed around as decoration. I have seen and handled a few Javanese, but would be hard pressed to say whether these are or are not from there. First photo is closeup of side of the Zebra bead. Notice how the white material, which is quite deep into the bead's body, is concentric around the perforation. The second photo is a view of another bead type I have in my collection which has been discussed here a number of times, and which Jamey thinks may be from India. Although the pattern is different in the "Zebra" beads, the style of rolling a "pad" or layer of prepared glass, containing decoration, around the central part of the bead seems similar - at least in my view. Look carefully at the second bead from the right in the red/white/black bead group, the pattern on the side is very similar to these Zebra's. These sorts of mysteries is what keeps me totally intrigued with beads. Paul

2412-ZebraCloseup3-DegumayWeb.jpg (109.1 KB)  2136-SPC-Striped_FoldedWeb.jpg (117.3 KB)  


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I agree with Joyce
Re: Side View of "Venetian" Zebra -- waneeho Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: birdi Post Reply
02/23/2012, 10:57:03

I agree with Joyce. These beads have a black core with twisted black/white stringer glass wound around the core. The white spots are where the white part of the twisted stringer is under the black stringer, but on top of the core glass.

Molten glass is pulled off the lump into 'strings'. One white string and one black string are twisted together and the resulting spiral rope/string is used to decorate. It's a standard lampwork technique.



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Check this out about the mystery zebra
Re: Tucson Treasures - Mystery Venetian Zebras -- waneeho Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadbox Post Reply
02/23/2012, 12:53:46

In Picards Vol 6, page 80 and bead number 2583 looks like the same make except in smaller slices on your strand.

What do others think?

-Matt



Modified by beadbox at Thu, Feb 23, 2012, 14:44:41

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Yes, Yes, Yes Matt - you found it!
Re: Check this out about the mystery zebra -- beadbox Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: waneeho Post Reply
02/23/2012, 17:37:00

Matt
Thanks so much for finding that set of beads in Picards Vol V1 Millefiori book. Number 2583 is the exact bead! I thought I had looked through the books thoroughly but you did find them. I would sure like to know if anyone else has any of these? Are they common? Their construction is so different than the majority of other mosaic beads.
Paul



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I can't recall coming across either slices or elbows of this type ever.
Re: Yes, Yes, Yes Matt - you found it! -- waneeho Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadbox Post Reply
02/23/2012, 18:15:43



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Re: Tucson Treasures - Mystery Venetian Zebras
Re: Tucson Treasures - Mystery Venetian Zebras -- waneeho Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: JP Post Reply
02/24/2012, 10:45:39

hello Paul
we have this type in our museum and on an exhibit too, I would think early 1900s
JP


Related link: http://www.picardbeads.com/e_archive/archive2/exhibit/no134.html

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In honor of the Oscars....Best Bead in Black and White goes to.......
Re: Tucson Treasures - Mystery Venetian Zebras -- waneeho Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: JohnnyAppleBead Post Reply
03/01/2012, 16:02:52

I always thought they resembled the Krobo too the black and white venetians mentioned here not too long ago...very nice, you don't see these that often. Here's a few and some of their black and white friends too. In honor of "The Actor" Best Bead in Black and White!

IMG_1363.JPG (151.7 KB)  IMG_1367.JPG (137.5 KB)  


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Great Strand Paul!!!
Re: Tucson Treasures - very long Venetian strand -- waneeho Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadbox Post Reply
02/23/2012, 05:11:57

I looked at this strand from Degumay the 1st weekend. When I went back on Sunday it was gone. I didn't have the funds to purchase it, but really just wanted to see and hold it one last time! When I was searching the wall Degumay informed me that this strand had sold. Now I am happy to know you have it. Great to meet you Paul, and hope to see you next year. You have great bead taste!

-Matt



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Absolutely killer.
Re: Tucson Treasures - very long Venetian strand -- waneeho Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Carl Dreibelbis Post Reply
02/23/2012, 05:43:13



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Great variety, great finds, makes me want to go to Tuscon someday.
Re: Tucson Treasures - very long Venetian strand -- waneeho Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadweyr Post Reply
02/23/2012, 06:38:44



Modified by beadweyr at Thu, Feb 23, 2012, 06:47:14

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Strange Yellow barrel with white/black eyes
Re: Tucson Treasures - very long Venetian strand -- waneeho Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
02/23/2012, 22:14:13

Hi Paul,
This bead is shown in two sizes on p. 242 of Middle Eastern and Venetian Glass Beads, by A. Panini. The legend says, " Large barrel-shaped lamp beads with longitudinal linear elements make up this degraded strand. They are vaguely reminiscent of the prestigious Middle Eastern mourfia aynifaine, from which Venetian glassmakers certainly took inspiration to satisfy the precise demands of the African market". Panini defines mourfia aynifaine as 10th to 15th century mosaic beads with eye decorations.

PS KILLER STRAND PAUL!!!!



Modified by Rosanna at Thu, Feb 23, 2012, 22:16:03

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Re: Strange Yellow barrel with white/black eyes
Re: Strange Yellow barrel with white/black eyes -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: waneeho Post Reply
02/24/2012, 17:56:32

Rosanna - thanks for finding those beads in Panini, I have to admit to not looking for many things in that book, gotta pay more attention. I really like these beads, they are just wierd and imprecise enough to set them apart from the much more precise and tightly patterned common mosaic beads. Thanks again for you research on this bead. Paul



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Variations by different cultures
Re: Strange Yellow barrel with white/black eyes -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: TASART Post Reply
02/26/2012, 13:45:34

Here are a few side by side comparisons, they have always reminded me of the Morfia beads, the Kiffa copy the Morfia as do the Venetians, In my humble opinion

DSC01280.jpg (135.8 KB)  DSC01282.jpg (163.3 KB)  


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Re: Variations by different cultures
Re: Variations by different cultures -- TASART Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: waneeho Post Reply
02/27/2012, 18:53:39

Thomas Ah, now I see what Panini was talking about in his description from MIDDLE EASTERN AND VENETIAN GLASS BEADS when he said he thought they resembled morphia. You have quite a collection of these Thomas, I should have guessed you would. I like the ones with the large black discs the best. Thanks. Paul



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Sample Card from Trade Beads from the Company J.F. Sick & Co.
Re: Re: Variations by different cultures -- waneeho Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: TASART Post Reply
02/28/2012, 15:36:27

another selection cropped from a Sick collection sample card

3407-1a-019.jpg (129.3 KB)  


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Re: Tucson Treasures - very long Venetian strand
Re: Tucson Treasures - very long Venetian strand -- waneeho Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: JP Post Reply
02/24/2012, 10:59:50

hello Paul
Great strand! lot of good beads
We consider them as composite millefiori with black center
They are rare beads on that size but they do come more often in smaller size
JP


Related link: http://www.picardbeads.com/e_archive/archive3/exhibit/b4.html

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Re: Re: Tucson Treasures - very long Venetian strand
Re: Re: Tucson Treasures - very long Venetian strand -- JP Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: waneeho Post Reply
02/24/2012, 18:01:54

John Thanks so much for your information on both the black & white "zebra" as I call them, and the two-layer yellow mosaic with both black & white murrine and trail decoration. I really like knowing that the black & white beads are an imitation of Krobo black & white beads. No one seems to have seen them much before - are they scarce? And I really love the big yellow mosaic beads - I already have a few of the smaller size and I was astounded to see these big ones. I didn't know whether to call the murrine composite, there seems to be quite a bit of distortion in them. Thanks again, your info was a big help. Paul



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Sick Sample Card....examples!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Re: Re: Re: Tucson Treasures - very long Venetian strand -- waneeho Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: TASART Post Reply
02/28/2012, 06:34:10

they came in all yummy colors!!!!

3407-1a-161.jpg (143.1 KB)  


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How cool Thomas! (show off!)
Re: Sick Sample Card....examples!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! -- TASART Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Carl Dreibelbis Post Reply
02/28/2012, 16:48:47



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Wow!! The nicest strand I´ve ever seen...congrats...!!
Re: Tucson Treasures - very long Venetian strand -- waneeho Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: uwe Post Reply
02/25/2012, 04:21:13



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Long Venetian strand and PAINTED CORAL
Re: Tucson Treasures - very long Venetian strand -- waneeho Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: waneeho Post Reply
02/25/2012, 23:07:24

Thanks very much to everyone who offered information and compliments and all your various thoughts about my Tucson Treasures. It was really a pleasure to read all your input. Thanks. Quite a few years ago, in an Ornament Magazine article, I believe it was Robert Liu who wrote about various types of fake coral. He discussed the so-called "African coral" which is red powder glass, and he also showed a couple of painted clay examples. I believe he said that the painted clay faux coral was made in Morocco and was quite rare. I have tried to relocate the article without any success, and wondered if anyone could remember it, or if anyone knows this bead type? Thanks. Paul PS: these came out of the Rita Okrent collection, sold to me by her daughter Jocelyne.

1885-PaintedFauxCoral_Edit1Web.jpg (117.2 KB)  


Modified by waneeho at Sat, Feb 25, 2012, 23:09:20

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Re: Long Venetian strand and PAINTED CORAL
Re: Long Venetian strand and PAINTED CORAL -- waneeho Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: JP Post Reply
02/27/2012, 11:22:16

Hello Paul
Interesting strand, we have on also on display some painted clay, we call them "poor man's coral" they were found in Nigeria and are large size, considering the small one in middle is about 12mm
JP

fake_coral.jpg (141.0 KB)  


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PAINTED CORAL
Re: Re: Long Venetian strand and PAINTED CORAL -- JP Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: waneeho Post Reply
02/27/2012, 18:44:50

John
Thanks for that photo and the confirmation about these beads. My cylindrical beads reach 35mm in length, and the barrels are right at 20mm, so yours must really be huge. Do you know anything else about them? I was really hoping someone might remember seeing Robert Liu's article about them. Do you suppose you and I are the only people who own strands of these? I can't imagine. Thanks again. Paul



Modified by waneeho at Mon, Feb 27, 2012, 18:48:12

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Re: PAINTED CORAL
Re: PAINTED CORAL -- waneeho Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: jp Post Reply
02/27/2012, 20:12:47

hello Paul
I don't think we are the only people who would have that, but frankly I don't see many others interested in these.
We have this strand on display in the museum in the coral section along with many variations of fake coral found in Africa, particularly Nigeria.
Coral in Nigeria is highly praised and expensive. Only the wealthy high class can afford it; common people settle for their simulation which comes in many in-between qualities, either European or African made.
We try to show that in our museum display case.
JP



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Thanks again John. (PAINTED CORAL)
Re: Re: PAINTED CORAL -- jp Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: waneeho Post Reply
02/27/2012, 23:07:50



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Re: Tucson Treasures - very long Venetian strand
Re: Tucson Treasures - very long Venetian strand -- waneeho Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: dreamfeat Post Reply
02/27/2012, 20:26:35

WOW!!! I AM SOOO DROOLING!!! That is fantastic!



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Drooling
Re: Re: Tucson Treasures - very long Venetian strand -- dreamfeat Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: waneeho Post Reply
02/27/2012, 23:12:39

Anne Glad you like them. I stood their drooling so long that I was afraid that I would get dehydrated, so I negotiated a little, bit the bullet, and bought them. While it seemed like a lot of money, the beads came out to only $12 apiece. I think they were worth it. It was worth half the price of the strand just to read all the great comments I got from BCN members. Paul



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Re: Drooling
Re: Drooling -- waneeho Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: dreamfeat Post Reply
02/28/2012, 09:00:29

lol, yes the hazards of the desert, the strand is AMAZING! It took every bone in my body not to jump in my truck and drive to Tuscon...hopefully next year!~Anne



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