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Posted by: nishedha Post Reply
02/16/2012, 02:15:13

Do please welcome this school of beads with some juicy comments!

29islamic.jpg (108.0 KB)  


Modified by nishedha at Thu, Feb 16, 2012, 02:16:40

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Re: Recent Arrivals
Re: Recent Arrivals -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: birdi Post Reply
02/16/2012, 06:25:34

very nice! I can only dream of owning some. Thanks for sharing.



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are any of them Fimo, by any chance? they look so clean...
Re: Recent Arrivals -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Stefany Post Reply
02/16/2012, 07:55:03



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FIMO? OMG!
Re: are any of them Fimo, by any chance? they look so clean... -- Stefany Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: nishedha Post Reply
02/16/2012, 09:23:05



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Re: Recent Arrivals
Re: Recent Arrivals -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: TASART Post Reply
02/16/2012, 07:57:41

if they are ALL genuine, you have quite the nice stash of beads in this lot........from the photo it is too hard to be able to identify whether some are genuine or not.....I took the liberty of circling the beads, the green circled beads appear to be genuine, the yellow ones are types I could not tell from this picture and I have some suspicion....and....the red circled beads would need better close-ups at a minimum to determine if correct for what they appear to be, the scary thing is, these types are being made so good now a days, it is getting harder to tell....again, if all real, they are a fantastic collection!!!

nish.jpg (114.6 KB)  


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Is the 4th row middle bead Venetian?
Re: Re: Recent Arrivals -- TASART Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadbox Post Reply
02/16/2012, 08:26:24

To me this bead looks like the only Venetian bead in the group. It looks to imitate a chevron and has been trail-decorated. The shape is one that I have not seen before.

-Matt



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pedigree
Re: Re: Recent Arrivals -- TASART Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: nishedha Post Reply
02/16/2012, 08:44:10

I am not an expert to rule about their authenticity, I believe all of them to be genuine, they have all been purchased together from Alí Cissé -- a reputed dealer (see his portrait on Augusto Panini's "Middle Eastern and Venetian Glass Beads", page 24).



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Re: pedigree
Re: pedigree -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: TASART Post Reply
02/16/2012, 08:59:49

as I stated, if these are all genuine, they are a very nice lot with some killer examples!!!



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Thanks, coming from you this is a priceless statement.
Re: Re: pedigree -- TASART Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: nishedha Post Reply
02/16/2012, 09:16:42



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Re: pedigree
Re: pedigree -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: xian xianlu Post Reply
02/17/2012, 03:40:53

if you speak about the salesman of beads Ali Cissé de Mopti, Mali, I assure you that it is a large very known salesman in West Africa. It passes by its shop a great quantity of very rare and beautiful beads but also many forgeries which he resells like authentic. Either it is unable to recognize false beads or he resells them in all full knowledge of the facts while exploiting its reputation
The subject is complex, it returns us to our capacity to judge the beads which we buy and of the trust which we have in the "specialists" who advise us



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thank you, xian
Re: Re: pedigree -- xian Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: nishedha Post Reply
02/17/2012, 11:29:30

Effectively, I speak of this person, and although I blindly trusted him for different reasons, now I am starting to make my mind.



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Either my text has been edited or it morphed spontaneously...
Re: pedigree -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: nishedha Post Reply
02/17/2012, 11:38:36



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number one
Re: Recent Arrivals -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: nishedha Post Reply
02/16/2012, 13:52:17

21 x 18 mm

is1a.jpg (34.2 KB)  is1d.jpg (36.3 KB)  


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sorry but fake
Re: number one -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: ancient beads Post Reply
02/17/2012, 06:30:41



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number two
Re: Recent Arrivals -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: nishedha Post Reply
02/16/2012, 13:53:38

21,3 x 18,2 mm

is2b.jpg (33.3 KB)  is2d.jpg (35.6 KB)  


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sorry but its fake
Re: number two -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: ancient beads Post Reply
02/17/2012, 06:33:49



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number three
Re: Recent Arrivals -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: nishedha Post Reply
02/16/2012, 13:54:45

21,6 x 18,1 mm

is3a.jpg (31.9 KB)  is3d.jpg (28.5 KB)  


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sorry but its fake
Re: number three -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: ancient beads Post Reply
02/17/2012, 06:36:19

12_Roman_period_64_BC-330_AD_Egypto_Roman_Eastern_Mediterranean_1st_2nd_AD_Checkerboard_bead._Early_Roman_period_and_Later.3.jpg (118.9 KB)  


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number four
Re: Recent Arrivals -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: nishedha Post Reply
02/16/2012, 13:56:04

19,45 x 16, 20 mm

is4a.jpg (29.3 KB)  is4e.jpg (27.9 KB)  


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Re: number four, Sorry! But, very suspicious looking!!!!
Re: number four -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: adjichristine Post Reply
02/16/2012, 17:07:34



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Really? Then what about number five?
Re: Re: number four, Sorry! But, very suspicious looking!!!! -- adjichristine Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: nishedha Post Reply
02/16/2012, 23:47:07



Modified by nishedha at Thu, Feb 16, 2012, 23:48:37

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sorry but its fake
Re: number four -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: ancient beads Post Reply
02/17/2012, 06:37:23



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number five
Re: Recent Arrivals -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: nishedha Post Reply
02/16/2012, 13:57:19

21,70 x 18,25 mm

is5b.jpg (36.3 KB)  is5e.jpg (30.2 KB)  


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sorry but its fake
Re: number five -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: ancient beads Post Reply
02/17/2012, 06:38:01



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number six
Re: Recent Arrivals -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: nishedha Post Reply
02/16/2012, 13:58:29

17,3 x 17 x 21,7 mm

is6b.jpg (32.4 KB)  is6d.jpg (27.4 KB)  


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sorry but its fake
Re: number six -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: ancient beads Post Reply
02/17/2012, 06:38:55



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number seven
Re: Recent Arrivals -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: nishedha Post Reply
02/16/2012, 13:59:26

18 x 17,2 mm

is7a.jpg (26.8 KB)  is7d.jpg (24.8 KB)  


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sorry but its fake
Re: number seven -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: ancient beads Post Reply
02/17/2012, 06:39:29



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number eight
Re: Recent Arrivals -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: nishedha Post Reply
02/17/2012, 01:54:04

18 x 24,8 mm

is8b.jpg (68.0 KB)  is8d.jpg (54.2 KB)  


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sorry but its fake
Re: number eight -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: ancient beads Post Reply
02/17/2012, 06:40:25



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number nine
Re: Recent Arrivals -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: nishedha Post Reply
02/17/2012, 01:55:06

19,75 x 25 mm

is9a.jpg (70.5 KB)  is9d.jpg (59.1 KB)  


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sorry but its fake
Re: number nine -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: ancient beads Post Reply
02/17/2012, 06:41:17



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number ten
Re: Recent Arrivals -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: nishedha Post Reply
02/17/2012, 01:56:15

19,25 x 17,20 mm

is10a.jpg (60.0 KB)  is10d.jpg (52.1 KB)  


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looks good
Re: number ten -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: ancient beads Post Reply
02/17/2012, 06:42:23



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Re: number ten, authentic morfia trade bead
Re: number ten -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: adjichristine Post Reply
02/17/2012, 12:33:44



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Re: Re: number ten, authentic morfia trade bead
Re: Re: number ten, authentic morfia trade bead -- adjichristine Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: ancient beads Post Reply
02/18/2012, 03:09:23

Dear Christine
morfia beads are not trade beads by definition.
All the best



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number eleven
Re: Recent Arrivals -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: nishedha Post Reply
02/17/2012, 01:57:14

20,70 x 19 mm

is11c.jpg (56.2 KB)  


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looks good but need to see better pic
Re: number eleven -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: ancient beads Post Reply
02/17/2012, 06:44:13



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number twelve
Re: Recent Arrivals -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: nishedha Post Reply
02/17/2012, 01:58:13

21 x 40 mm

is12a.jpg (89.9 KB)  is112d.jpg (62.8 KB)  


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sorry but its fake
Re: number twelve -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: ancient beads Post Reply
02/17/2012, 06:44:57



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number thirteen
Re: Recent Arrivals -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: nishedha Post Reply
02/17/2012, 01:59:47

16,90 x 19,85 mm

is13a.jpg (72.9 KB)  is13c.jpg (53.4 KB)  


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number fourteen
Re: Recent Arrivals -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: nishedha Post Reply
02/17/2012, 02:00:47

19,90 x 22 mm

is14a.jpg (67.7 KB)  is14d.jpg (51.3 KB)  


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sorry but its fake
Re: number fourteen -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: ancient beads Post Reply
02/17/2012, 06:45:57



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BEWARE! I have been privately advised that most are FAKES!
Re: Recent Arrivals -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: nishedha Post Reply
02/17/2012, 05:18:39



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NOT ALL fakes
Re: BEWARE! I have been privately advised that most are FAKES! -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: TASART Post Reply
02/17/2012, 06:00:24

I still believe that some of these are legit old beads, my circled version of your beads show beads circled in green, these appear to be old and authentic, the ones picture here are Java and new, of course!

image


Related link: a past thread about similar
Modified by TASART at Fri, Feb 17, 2012, 06:04:43

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Re: NOT ALL fakes
Re: NOT ALL fakes -- TASART Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: xian Post Reply
02/17/2012, 08:15:01

I allow myself to bring this reflection to you which has been the fruit of my trips and searchs for beads in West Africa, for more than 25 years, where I am lucky to meet many salesmen of which several became great friends.

I believe that it should well be understood how the majority of the beads discovered in West Africa reach us.
At the base of the travelling merchants traverse the bush or the desert with an aim of exchanging with the villagers very diverse products such as rice, sugar, fabrics or clothing, agricultural implements or material of kitchen. In exchange they bring back artisanal objects (baskets, seats, fabrics) plants, meat of bush but also of the old objects or copies the old ones and of course beads. These travelling merchants do not have practically any idea of the value of the beads which they bring back and which they sell to more specialized merchants such Ali Cissé. They sell these beads by batch, i.e. all that they found in their round. There is in these batches of all, old beads, modern beads, broken beads and any type of materials (glass, wood, metal, plastic…). The purchaser gives a price for the unit. For these beads there is a very reduced number of purchasers. It is an activity which in general is transmitted of father as son.
This practice is very old and the forgeries in the field of the beads are rather recent.
These salesmen of beads recognized are confronted today to determine the truth of the forgery without having really the means. Few, to see not reference material, for certain difficulties of reading and the majority even not a magnifying glass like material of checking and especially very weak knowledge of the techniques of manufacturing. The beads are only one product as another which they buy and which they sell without never making collection of it (with some rare exceptions such Oumar Cissé).
The only experts on the ground are collectors residents on the spot in Africa but they are seldom salesmen…
There are of course great differences among all these salesmen, some control well better than of other their subject, some show a greater honesty than of others, some seek more than others to be formed.
It is in the sense that it is necessary largely to thank this forum for the exchanges that it allows us and the knowledge which he diffuses.



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well said, thank you!
Re: Re: NOT ALL fakes -- xian Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: TASART Post Reply
02/17/2012, 10:43:31



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Muddy waters, fishermen's gain.
Re: Recent Arrivals -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: nishedha Post Reply
02/17/2012, 12:50:25

Thanks to you all, Forumite fellows, for so many juicy comments, that have enlivened this great learning experience.
Yankee, your laconic style is much appreciated. Such elegance!
Stefany: I think it is all glass, but nowadays (Kali Yug)I am selling plastic at the same rate as amber.
TASART: how great you are,an iron hand in a velvet glove.
xian: your excellent report shows first-hand field work at its best, thanks.
Will: that one I want!

Your instant help will hopely enable me in restoring to balance Justice's Scale: the man IS I believe honest...we are short-sighted.



Modified by nishedha at Sat, Feb 18, 2012, 01:49:03

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Looks Familiar
Re: Recent Arrivals -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Finfan Post Reply
02/17/2012, 13:04:06

This is a strand that I got back in 2008. It looks similar to the 1st bead in the 5th row. I know this is modern manufacture. Perhaps copies of your bead. The decoration looks cleaner on your bead.

m_IMG_0071.jpg (32.5 KB)  


Modified by Finfan at Fri, Feb 17, 2012, 13:05:20

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Comparing
Re: Recent Arrivals -- nishedha Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Will Post Reply
02/17/2012, 15:44:05

Hi Nishedha,

It's very instructive to look at these. I agree with what Yankee, Thomas and Christine have said, but to be honest I think I would have been quite capable of falling for some of the beads that I think are fake if I had seen them individually (#1, for instance). And it's always more difficult to be sure of one's judgement when there are some lovely apparently authentic beads (the two morfia - #4 & 5 on line 3) mixed in with the batch.

What first awakened my suspicions was the poor quality of the three fake "morfia"on the left in line three. They really don't look very similar to any genuine beads I've come across. And for most of the beads that appear to be doubtful or worse, I would also share Stefany's question with regard to the material they're made from. A lot of the colours (reds, yellows, blues) are a bit off in comparison to genuine ancient and Islamic beads and in many of them the white seems much too white for authentic ancient white glass. Are they even glass at all?

Let's try to establish some comparative examples so that we can talk specifically about what is wrong in the ones we think are fake. For a start I'll attach a photo of an authentic Roman bead that's similar in style to your #3, so that we can see the difference - the coloured and the white squares in your bead are all either slightly or substantially wrong.

I hope you get your money back from these, Nishedha, but in the meantime the discussion here can be very useful for us all.

Will

Rom350.jpg (52.7 KB)  


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Thank you Will for the comparison ! This helps. Anyone with other examples?
Re: Comparing -- Will Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: karavanserai Post Reply
02/17/2012, 16:45:34

I am sorry Nishedha that your beads are not what you hoped. They surely could have fooled me. I hope you can negotiate with the seller.

As I am reading through the comments not all beads get an unanimous fake label. Anyone else who has the experience and knowledge to comment and point out the characteristics that make these beads authentic or fake , please ... novices like me will be ever grateful! Thank you in advance.

martine

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these are authentic
Re: Thank you Will for the comparison ! This helps. Anyone with other examples? -- karavanserai Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: TASART Post Reply
02/18/2012, 04:13:14

1_checker.jpg (156.2 KB)  


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Thank you Thomas. ..
Re: these are authentic -- TASART Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: karavanserai Post Reply
02/18/2012, 08:06:15

Does the surface feel specific; is it possible to describe? Is it grainy, or is it smooth with some wear and tear. From the picture it seems like the bead middle left has a different surface than the mosaic ones. Or not?
These are really nice.

martine

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surface wear
Re: Thank you Thomas. .. -- karavanserai Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: TASART Post Reply
02/18/2012, 10:42:47

these all have some age to them, thousand or so years, depends on where they were kept during that time that would affect their surface or internal structure, some soils are acidic some more alkaline and some neutral, also the glass may have different chemistry which would be affected in different ways as well.......which says nothing of the use and wear the beads received during their use.....I would guesstimate the checker beads I show are all from the same time period or close, where they were found and who used them ages ago would be a mystery that could affect the surface.....I would never judge a bead by its surface solely, Thomas



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forgot about that factor! Lesson learned. Thank you!
Re: surface wear -- TASART Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: karavanserai Post Reply
02/19/2012, 05:11:54

martine

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