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This type of thing drives me crazy
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Posted by: beadweyr Post Reply
12/11/2011, 10:50:21

I know we have posted stuff like this in the past but for some reason this seller really pisses me off. Maybe it is because someone is buying a fake L&C bead for $125 or the fake ambassador bead for $54. Read the descriptions they are classic.

Just a few from this seller from our favorite online auction house:

360417117268
130615100126
360417074106
360417074105
130615100120



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Re: This type of thing drives me crazy
Re: This type of thing drives me crazy -- beadweyr Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Jim Johnson Post Reply
12/11/2011, 13:05:37

Thanks for your posting. I search Ebay every day for "Indian Trade Beads" - these beads came up in that search.
Having only been a member of BCN for a year, and learning new things every day from BCN folks, how does one spot these beads as fakes?? Where and when were they made??
I do see "Indian Trade Beads" very frequently that are clearly African (Raffia is a dead give-away) or beads that simply were never traded to Native Americans in the US. Ebay sellers even try to pass off sand cast strands/singles and Miiefiori beads as found at Native American sites....



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To spot new repros,
Re: Re: This type of thing drives me crazy -- Jim Johnson Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Joyce Post Reply
12/11/2011, 13:22:56

it helps a lot to be able to see and handle many many beads. Some differences don't show up in images, like the weighty feel a Venetian has (because of the lead oxide in the glass) compared to a new modern bead made in current times.

The seller can deliberately obscure (scrub it away) the tell-tale powdery residue inside new Czech or Indian beads. So the non- presence of the white powdery mandrel release is not conclusive.

The glass the new repros are made with is softer than the old glass - it shows in the lampwork decor of the so-called "ghost" beads in a very tell-tale way. The yellows are wrong, almost greenish. The reds and other colors are different. And the wear on the new ones is very uniform.

The best thing an honest eBay seller can do is mention this site in their auctions, and provide a direct link from your "me" page. You can't provide direct linkage from your auction, but you can from your "me" page. (Also you can provide a direct link to your website from your "me" page.)

Encouraging sellers and buyers alike to post images for discussion can only help educate.



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Re: Re: This type of thing drives me crazy
Re: Re: This type of thing drives me crazy -- Jim Johnson Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadweyr Post Reply
12/11/2011, 14:03:59

Hi Jim
It is hard to tell from pictures but there are thing that can be picked out. As Joyce mentioned quality of glass and colors of glass are one way of telling, also finishes on the beads and the way the bead holes look. To be honest this knowledge comes from lots of handling of beads and looking at lots of images. The beads that this seller is misrepresenting are most likely Czech or Indian or even Chinese. As Joyce recommends if people are not sure this is a great place to ask and get opinions.

One thing I have personal experience with and know is a major problem with Indian trade bead collecting is the common practice of many dealers to sell period and type correct beads traded in Africa as authentic Indian Trade beads. When I had my Bead business during the 90's I had several dealers that would by old Venetian beads from the African trade from me and take them to Pow Wows all along the east cost and sell them as authentic Indian trade beads. This is also very common on Ebay. Proving provenance on Indian trade beads is very difficult. Knowing the type of beads that were traded in the Americas helps to at least avoid buying incorrect period and type of beads.

Wayne



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Amazing American Indians and their glass works
Re: Re: This type of thing drives me crazy -- Jim Johnson Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
12/11/2011, 17:43:52

I've written to a few ebay sellers who actually state that various glass trade beads (usually Venetian or modern powder glass) were made by American Indians, right here in North American at their, er, glass-making villages? The fact the required glass factories, etc have never been found does not seem to faze them.

My favorite recent trade bead "experience" - at a local fabric shop, I spotted a small dish of millefiori cylinders, and started to sort through. As I was doing this, a clerk came by & asked if I needed any help. I said sure, do you have any other antique Venetian beads? She glared and said, "THOSE are not Venetian beads, THOSE are AFRICAN TRADE BEADS!" When I pointed out that yes, they are African trade beads, but made in Venice, she was even more irritated.

However the best mangled description by far that I've seen was of the "1st century Islamic" beads that were mysteriously made hundreds of years before Mohammed was born, and were actually Venetian beads anyway. The seller insisted that a "noted bead expert" had given him the description and he did not change the text, despite being around 1900 years off on the date.

Oh well, I guess a few of these make up for the times we spot someone selling "old beads" for cheap that are worth a lot more than advertised because the seller doesn't know what they are. The bead karma goes both ways, I think!




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this dealer is a known liar and misrepresents many beads
Re: This type of thing drives me crazy -- beadweyr Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: TASART Post Reply
12/11/2011, 19:22:50



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Ambassador bead comparison
Re: This type of thing drives me crazy -- beadweyr Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
12/11/2011, 21:08:49

Here's a side-by-side comparison of the "Ambassador" bead, real Venetian (photo with 2 beads showing different wear) vs. reproduction (from one of the ebay auctions mentioned above). Note that the yellow and red colors differ. The Venetians used a very mustard-y yellow which I believe was derived from sulfur compounds and just not seen in new beads. Note also that the yellow "stems" differ in execution.

I will do the Lewis & Clark bead comparison tomorrow.

AmbassadorsClose.jpg (35.0 KB)  ReproAmbassador.jpg (22.8 KB)  


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Applause - pix speak louder than words!
Re: Ambassador bead comparison -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Joyce Post Reply
12/11/2011, 21:25:11



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Re: Ambassador bead comparison
Re: Ambassador bead comparison -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Stefany Post Reply
12/12/2011, 01:04:28

i have one or two that were made in Czechoslovakia in the 1980s.



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thank you Rosanna. These comparisons are helpful to me.
Re: Ambassador bead comparison -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: birdi Post Reply
12/12/2011, 16:20:01



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Lewis&Clark comparison
Re: This type of thing drives me crazy -- beadweyr Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
12/12/2011, 06:56:15

Here is a picture of some variations seen in the "Lewis & Clark" design Venetian trade bead, compared with a reproduction (listed on ebay in one of the above auctions). Note especially the very thin, rope-like characteristic of the twisted red/white cane on the Venetian bead, which has a lot of variation from bead to bead. As for the Ambassador beads, the red in the Venetian beads has a blue tone, making it more toward a purple color than the orange-y reds seen in newer beads.

I'm sure that it is hard to judge a repro when there is nothing to compare it to, which is one reason to try to handle a lot of beads, as Joyce suggests, before being comfortable purchasing on-line.

Lewis&ClarkExamples.jpg (44.6 KB)  ReproLewis&Clark.jpg (23.4 KB)  


Modified by Rosanna at Mon, Dec 12, 2011, 07:01:41

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An idea.....
Re: Lewis&Clark comparison -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: floorkasp Post Reply
12/12/2011, 07:11:31

Perhaps those of us going to Tucson could bring some of our finest or most interesting replica beads. We can compare notes, take pictures (possibly next to the original ones) and post them on here?
I have made a post on millefiori replicas on my blog before, but it needs updating. Also, it does not include any beads like fancies or chevrons.


Related link: Millies: scroll down

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Re: An idea.....
Re: An idea..... -- floorkasp Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: bonpo Post Reply
12/12/2011, 12:21:27

It's sometime difficult to keep up with the new copy's these days,
I've got some good newly made Indian white hearts and Chinese copy germen marbles etc.
it will be nice to have a special Galleries or some sort of forum just to share infos on copy or new replica beads.



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Tucson material in pix in Special 'comparison gallery': I applaud
Re: Re: An idea..... -- bonpo Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: karavanserai Post Reply
12/13/2011, 04:22:19

Rosanna, Floor, Bonpo : excellent idea. Only I wonder if it is feasible for the administrators? Joyce?

Or we could agree always to use COMPARISON in the title of the threads whenever someone makes excellent comparison pictures as Rosanna and Floor and others did in the past. That way it is easy to go through the archives. More feasible, I think. Just a thought

martine

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Re: An idea.....
Re: An idea..... -- floorkasp Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: TASART Post Reply
12/13/2011, 04:14:49

Actually we have a ton of great info already here on the forum, the search may be a bit tough at times but possibly the makings of a permanent exhibit?

image


Related link: just one older post regarding fakes, copies and comparisons

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A Link to an older thread regarding fakes and copies
Re: Re: An idea..... -- TASART Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: TASART Post Reply
12/13/2011, 10:58:28


Related link: OLD POSTS REGARDING FAKES AND COPIES

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Re: Lewis&Clark comparison
Re: Lewis&Clark comparison -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: JP Post Reply
12/12/2011, 18:29:37

here are Venetian replicas from the 1980s
JP


Related link: http://www.picardbeads.com/czech_beads/cz219.html

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Re: This type of thing drives me crazy
Re: This type of thing drives me crazy -- beadweyr Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Jim Johnson Post Reply
12/12/2011, 13:12:21

A big thank you to all the great responses thusfar from BCN members on this subject. The side-by-side comparisons are very valuable, and I certainly support a series of pages where newly made beads are displayed by photos alongside their original counterparts.



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Here are more than 80 reproduction beads from T & T Trading
Re: Re: This type of thing drives me crazy -- Jim Johnson Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Joyce Post Reply
12/12/2011, 18:03:27

Some of these should look pretty familiar while looking at ebay auctions.


Related link: tttbeads.com repro pages

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Green Lewis & Clark bead?
Re: Here are more than 80 reproduction beads from T & T Trading -- Joyce Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
12/13/2011, 07:05:46

Was there ever an original Lewis & Clark bead with translucent green base? I would love to see a pic of a real one. Going to check my Picard volumes right now....



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Re: Green Lewis & Clark bead?
Re: Green Lewis & Clark bead? -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: JP Post Reply
12/13/2011, 09:53:47

I have not seen one yet, but there are 3 opaque green in the museum one dark green and two different yellow green
There are pictures as #899, #900, #902 in our volume V.
JP



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a few on a sample card
Re: Green Lewis & Clark bead? -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: TASART Post Reply
12/13/2011, 10:21:27

Sick collection, Troppen Museum

SICK-3407-1a-096.jpg (155.1 KB)  


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Lime Green Lewis & Clark - fabulous!
Re: a few on a sample card -- TASART Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
12/13/2011, 12:14:28

I have never seen some of these colors - the lime green version is spectacular!!!



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