Posted by: porshiebo Post Reply
07/03/2011, 08:03:11
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07/03/2011, 08:11:05
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Posted by: uwe Post Reply
07/03/2011, 10:16:11
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Posted by: porshiebo Post Reply
07/04/2011, 04:15:31
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Posted by: Carl Dreibelbis Post Reply
07/05/2011, 21:09:06
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Posted by: Barbara Post Reply
07/03/2011, 10:41:55
Imagine carrying all that wealth around.
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Posted by: porshiebo Post Reply
07/04/2011, 03:52:15
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Posted by: porshiebo Post Reply
07/04/2011, 03:58:43
Modified by porshiebo at Mon, Jul 04, 2011, 03:59:03
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Posted by: porshiebo Post Reply
07/04/2011, 04:01:25
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Posted by: porshiebo Post Reply
07/04/2011, 04:04:27
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Posted by: porshiebo Post Reply
07/04/2011, 04:07:52
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Posted by: porshiebo Post Reply
07/04/2011, 04:12:30
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Posted by: porshiebo Post Reply
07/04/2011, 04:14:35
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Posted by: porshiebo Post Reply
07/04/2011, 04:17:10
... Another day I'll post photos of costumes from other regions :)
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Posted by: choorbazar Post Reply
07/16/2011, 01:16:16
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Posted by: choorbazar Post Reply
07/16/2011, 01:18:06
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Posted by: porshiebo Post Reply
07/17/2011, 02:41:22
Choorbazar I'm not sure what you mean. Do you mean photos from events during the last year? Or did you mean something else?
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Posted by: Carl Dreibelbis Post Reply
07/07/2011, 19:35:26
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Posted by: Carl Dreibelbis Post Reply
07/07/2011, 19:35:39
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Posted by: Joyce Post Reply
07/03/2011, 09:10:44
Greetings and welcome! Two important back issues of Ornament Magazine that you may already have:
Ornament Magazine Cover Volume 23 No. 4
Summer 2000 Also, the link below to the back issue from 2007:
Related link: Hezuo Festival Gansu Province
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Posted by: porshiebo Post Reply
07/03/2011, 09:36:57
Hi Joyce! Thanks for your reply I think I have one or both of those issues of Ornament, not sure which one though, as they are back in the UK (I'm in Japan until September)Also back in the UK I have the book Gold Jewelry from Tibet and Nepal by Jane Casey Singer. Looking at those photos from the Hezuo festival from the 2007 issue of Ornament, it's interesting to see that the costume style and arrangement, and the individual ornaments from that region are distinctive again from the styles and ornaments of other regions (The main regions that find photos of are Litang, Yushu and Aba). I haven't found detailed information about the whole range of Tibetan costumes by region, just many small pieces of info that I am trying to put together (mostly I learn from Chinese websites using google translate). My dream would be to goto Tibet and do comprehensive research and photography of many regions' costume style and type of ornaments, and publish the what I learn and photograph online, or in print somehow. As well as pursuing my own interest, I hope that raising awareness of these costumes and festivals could play a part in encouraging tourism to Tibet, which hopefully makes jobs for Tibetans. The costumes are pretty amazing for their rarity and expense and beauty... I have many photos of people wearing many kilos of gold or coral ornaments, and looking very gorgeous too
Modified by porshiebo at Sun, Jul 03, 2011, 09:41:34
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Posted by: uwe Post Reply
07/03/2011, 10:18:43
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Posted by: red Post Reply
07/03/2011, 10:53:20
Hi Porshiba,
you may find other info and pics here at an ethnic jewels forum
http://ethnicjewels.ning.com/Warm wishes
Sarah
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Posted by: red Post Reply
07/03/2011, 10:55:02
http://ethnicjewels.ning.com/main/search/search?q=tibetThis is the search result for the word tibet on the site
S x
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Posted by: porshiebo Post Reply
07/04/2011, 05:24:35
Thanks Sarah - and wow, great website! Very extensive gallieries and great photos and all sorts of ethnic jewelry. Really glad to find out about it and will definitely be exploring more
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Posted by: mosquitobay Post Reply
07/05/2011, 07:51:13
First, I think it is all gorgeous stuff. But aren't most all of the large pinkish colored beads just synthetic amber (phenolic resin)? The smaller beads that are supposed to be coral (on the hats, etc), are they really coral or are they also synthetic. The gold looks real, but the last batch of gold material I saw out of Tibet (five or six years ago), was only gold plated ( but done very well and hard to detect). See example below: It would make me wonder if the $100,000 worth of beads may be a bit of stretch. No offense intended, it is beautiful ornamentation, whether it is all authentic material or not. There is some excellent original antique Tibetan ornamentation out there, but it is often only the really old stuff that is made from authentic material. Now if Tibetan people are wearing new material, it is still Tibetan (or is it)? Happy collecting, Jan Skipper,
Mosquitobay
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Posted by: judy Post Reply
07/06/2011, 11:28:10
I have seen this coral which is defintely real. Personally I'm not wild about the color but the darker coral is harder to find now. The coral is coming from Nigeria and sold by Africans to Tibetan dealers (the connection being made in Tucson) who take then sell it in Tibet. I believe it is Pacific coral, definitely not Meditteranean. And yes, the value is realistic too. Beads have been travelling since day one and nothing's changed. It's fascinating to watch the movement.
Modified by judy at Wed, Jul 06, 2011, 17:25:24
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Posted by: mosquitobay Post Reply
07/06/2011, 11:49:06
Hi Judy, Are you saying the big pink beads are the Chinese dyed branch coral, and not synthetic amber. I just took a closer look at the pics and I can see little pin holes in some of the beads, so I could believe that. Unless something drastic has changed since I was in Tucson though, the Chinese dyed coral can be purchased by the pound. Unless the dozens of matching dZi bead spacers are authentic (not), my guess is that the whole package is a mix of newly made synthetic material possibly mixed in with some older authentic stuff. Also, I am still doubtful about the gold as well. It is definitely beautiful costuming and ornamentation, but I cannot believe the $100,000 price tag. Just skeptical I guess. I am not an expert by any means, but I have bought and sold a lot of Asian and Tibetan material, both authentic and copies. Any other opinions?
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Posted by: mosquitobay Post Reply
07/06/2011, 12:22:42
Here is a pic of two bead types, first glass made to look like coral, second, authentic Mediterranean coral
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Posted by: mosquitobay Post Reply
07/06/2011, 12:25:14
Top string is glass, second is Chinese branch coral dyed, third is lower quality Mediterranean coral, bottom is Mediterranean coral sourced from Tibet: I understand the dyed Chinese branch coral comes in many other colors and finishes/shapes now.
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Posted by: mosquitobay Post Reply
07/06/2011, 12:28:59
Synthetic amber sourced from Africa. This is old & dirty, but if it was cleaned up and dyed pink originally at manufacture, it would look very much like what is in the pictures of the Tibetan costumes. I used to buy this for around $100 for a 30 to 40 inch string.
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Posted by: judy Post Reply
07/06/2011, 17:27:31
I have seen a huge amount of it with an African seller friend. I don't want to talk about his business because it would be betraying a trust but I have handled a fair amount of it. The pale pink coral that he had was real coral. I agree with you that the darker red coral in the pictures does look dyed. I'm not an expert either. I'm afraid I made an error in my previous posting and referred to the coral as 'amber'. What a twit! I aplogogize for the confusion. I have corrected it and I think the posting will make more sense now.
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Posted by: mosquitobay Post Reply
07/06/2011, 13:04:27
Of course I could be all wrong. If the gold alone on some of the costumes is authentic and solid, that could easily reach $100,000 at today's prices.
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Posted by: Joyce Post Reply
07/06/2011, 17:13:19
And in the world of beads and adornment we all know money doesn't buy a great quantity. 100,000.00 is only 58 green 7-layer chevrons.
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Posted by: nishedha Post Reply
07/07/2011, 00:31:10
These girls look as funny as their attire -- not so much like Tibetan folk, rather like models dressed with costumes and costume jewelry that do not belong to them.
The King is nacked!
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Posted by: Stefany Post Reply
07/07/2011, 01:14:41
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Posted by: nishedha Post Reply
07/09/2011, 10:52:16
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Posted by: porshiebo Post Reply
07/07/2011, 07:33:09
They are not models, and I think that the jewels are authentic. As valuable as I wrote originally, though not ancient I think The girls are usually the prettiest daughters or nieces in the rich families that pool all the jewels. Big families select one person to wear everything I wrote quite a lot in the reply below titled " Tibetans wearing their *expensive* beads (Aba region) Photos", and also what I have written about in the other thread with photos from Dege. Please take a look
Modified by porshiebo at Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 07:36:53
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Posted by: porshiebo Post Reply
07/07/2011, 05:16:34
Thanks everyone for your replies. I am delighted to have found BC.N and the knowledgeable people here. I am very inexperienced with beads, indeed I am yet to hold antique coral or a dzi bead in my hand. However I have done a lot of looking around and reading about these Tibetan costumes from the people who have attended these festivals and photographs these exhibitions. These exhibitions are put on at regional Tibetan festivals organised for Tibetans. I see the exhibitions repeatedly described as celebrations where the wealthy show off their rare and valuable jewelry collection. Whether it's ancient or modern, real, dyed or fake coral/amber, solid gold or gold plated, I have no definite idea, and am very curious to find out the truth.
At these festivals (such as Litang and Yushu horse festivals) most Tibetans turn up in their ceremonial costumes and best jewelry. By comparison with the photos of the normal festival participants, the people in the exhibitions are decked out in way more stuff that looks way more expensive. Please check out the photos from Litang and Yushu when I post them, because the jewelry and beads is not the same as from Aba which I've posted here. Ifm very surprised and interested in the divergent opinions by mosquitobay, Judy, Nisheda. To me such polarised views are a sign of realise how much imitation and misrepresentation there is in the bead world (and Tibetan stuff in particular perhaps). I hope we can carry on together and discuss this, I have some more stuff I would like to show. Also, Jamey Allen has contacted me, and we are in the middle of a discussion. Here is some stuff we said about the coral. Please watched the video which I have linked to! ************* "Jamey:Regarding coral, there are presently two different Chinese groups circulating. From 1995, many dyed bamboo coral beads were made expressly for the Tibetan market. But, from just a few years ago (three or four) a new type has been circulated. these are made from "sponge" coral (a name that describes the texture of the material, not its relative softness)--and these are likewise dyed reddish. But there is a much greater tendency for these to be more orange or pinkish-orange than red. What I see in the photographs is much more the latter. I have several strands of these beads that I bought retail locally (from the bead store of a friend of mine)--and I was astounded how inexpensive they were.
Porshiebo: I see, that's very interesting, I didn't know any of that.
Pbo:So, from what you have written, the second type of coral which the beads in the photos resemble, the "sponge" coral started appearing around 2007-8. But the photos are from a festival that occurred, at the latest, in 2004, because that's when the photos I posted first appeared online. And I guess the most of the coral is a bit older than that. I don't see why the people in the photos would have necessarily bought the coral soon before the festival, my guess is that they built it up over the years (In my mind ten or twenty years). Of course it's a possibility that they acquired it all in 2004, but even then, doesn't that rule it out from being the recent Chinese sponge coral, and mean it's something else? Pbo:Please take quick a look at this video from 1:40 (SEE LINK BELOW), taken in downtown Yushu in 2009 of a shop selling very expensive coral strands, $1500 for a small strand and $12,000 for a big one. I don't know whether coral can possibly age and look so smooth, but I am guessing that coral is harvested very recently. Very curious to learn what you make of that coral, and what you make of the prices! "
How about the possibility that newly harvested, genuine undyed coral is extremely highly valued in Tibet, and that rich Tibetan families (traders and people with government jobs) are buying it up? This is my hunch on what the majority of the beads on display are, and what might be being sold in the video linked below. (Also, I realise now that I shouldn't have written "heirloom beads" in my BCN post... after discussions here and with Jamey, I think that the stuff worn in the photos probably IS indeed high value coral, but is more likely new undyed coral than ancient coral, any of the imitations). More later :)
Related link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r8zZMfyDTsI
Modified by porshiebo at Thu, Jul 07, 2011, 05:24:03
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Posted by: judy Post Reply
07/09/2011, 13:43:02
This has been an interesting discussion. I have spent quite a bit of time looking at the pictures and reading the postings. I think some of the beads are real coral and some not. The beads I find the most curious are the large round beads being worn by the woman on the left in photo 7. I have never seen coral beads this round shape, they always seem to follow natural contours. It would be hard to believe that real coral would be wasted in cutting and shaping it to make this form. Also the color is not the color of true coral. The light colored coral that the man is wearing in photo 10 has the white spots of Pacific coral which are where the small branches were growing from the main stem. If this is artificial coral the spots have been well reproduced. These pictures were taken in bright sunlight which always caused reds to be misrepresented, the beads could look very different in reality.
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Posted by: porshiebo Post Reply
07/10/2011, 13:25:26
Hi Judy, Thank you very much for sharing what you see! This is an enlightening forum Thanks to people here and to Jamey, I have learnt much more about the beads in these photos in the last week of posting on BC.N than I have in all the rest of the 3 or 4 years since I started collecting these photos. I wonder what people make of the coral that can be seen in the closeup photos of ladies' hands in photos 2 and 8?
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Posted by: Joyce Post Reply
07/11/2011, 06:10:53
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Posted by: Stefany Post Reply
07/10/2011, 23:33:15
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Posted by: Abdul touray Post Reply
07/10/2011, 05:36:57
is everything real coral?
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Posted by: porshiebo Post Reply
07/10/2011, 15:02:48
There's no way to know unless somebody here is intimately familiar with these contemporary Tibetan beads and ornaments I think most of it is coral, and some stuff not. I am an absolute beginner at beads, so am mostly basing that on what people here have said, plus also other writing I've managed to find while collecting these photos. In a year or two, I hope to goto Tibet and do my own research. Does it all look like real coral to you?
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Posted by: choorbazar Post Reply
07/13/2011, 21:44:41
hi its 100% reall but
i think we cant find or see any more ladies wearing like this beads
this is an old picture mybe about 20 years old in that time it dosnt worth much just few thousend dollers
in that time tibetan want to sell this kind of beads . right now they are buying back this kind of beads
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Posted by: choorbazar Post Reply
07/13/2011, 21:16:54
hi i think we cant find or see any more ladies wearing like this beads
this is an old picture mybe about 20 years old in that time it dosnt worth
much few thousend dollers in that time tibetan want to sell this kind of beads . right now they are buying back this kind of beads
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Posted by: porshiebo Post Reply
07/14/2011, 01:40:08
No the photos are from this decade. The ones in this thread are from 2004. In other threads photos are from 2003 - 2007
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Posted by: Russ Nobbs Post Reply
07/15/2011, 18:40:38
During the recent Olympics in China there were a lot of Han Chinese dressed in traditional costumes of the various ethnic minorities. My memory was of mostly pictures of women but maybe some men also. Is it possible these pictures are from some event or celebration of that sort? Most of the women shown have features that look more typically Chinese than Tibetan. I do love looking at the pictures in this thread. No matter who, what or when, they are great displays of ornamentation. Some years back I hand carried back from China a large "coffee table" book of ethnic regalia. When I get home I'll try to post some pictures from that book. (I'm in Maryland right now, flying out tomorrow after a computer software conference.)
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Posted by: porshiebo Post Reply
07/17/2011, 02:39:43
Hi Russ I haven't yet been to one of these costume exhibitions but have read a lot about them, and I feel safe to say that the costumes and the wearers are much more genuinely Tibetan than anything at the Olympics These exhibitions are part of the biggest regional Tibetan festivals in Eastern Tibet, festivals which are fairly well documented. The festivals themselves and costume exhibitions are ostensibly put on by Tibetans, and attended by Tibetans. At the larger festivals - practically none of which have happened since 2007 - there was significant Chinese military presence, as well as attendance from Chinese local officials and a significant number of tourists (both Westerners and Chinese tourists). Travelers who have regularly visited Tibet write about these festivals as being some of the most genuinely Tibetan events anywhere on the Tibetan plateau. But since the 2008 Lhasa riots the Chinese have basically banned the big festivals, however Tibetans instead hold small unofficial festivals basically spread by word of mouth on the day that they happen. These festivals have no Chinese military presence and very few tourists, but I have found some photos from local photographers. Those smaller festivals follow the same formula, with horse racing, dances, and these costume exhibitions by wealthy Tibetan nomad/trader families. At those recent small autonomous festivals the costumes look exactly the same as here, though the number of participants in the exhibitions is less than ten (as opposed to 50 or 100 in the big festivals of the mid-2000s)
That being said, I see what you mean about the ladies have quite Chinese looking features. May I suggest that I major reason for that is that Kham is the region of traditional Tibet to traditional China. The nomads on the Kham plateau are traditionally traders who travelled widely, so genetically they'll be closer to Chinese than Lhasans (I read somewhere that Khampa Tibetans are supposed to have a bit of 'Aryan' blood too... because of the silk road? Can't remember)
Also most of the women in the exhibitions - especially the younger ones - look like they haven't been living the harsh nomadic way of life, but have grown up in towns. None of them have the red sunburnt, chapped cheeks that most nomads have (such as the ones in the audience watching the exhibitions). Interestingly many of the men in the same exhibitions have darker complexions. Could it be from spending more time outside? I don't know. The men and women in these exhibitions are specially selected for being handsome or pretty. Like in other parts of Asia, in Tibet in might be considered beautiful to have a light complexion
Modified by porshiebo at Sun, Jul 17, 2011, 02:54:52
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