Post Message Search Overview RegisterLoginAdmin
Has Anyone Seen this?
Post Reply Edit View All Forum
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
07/01/2009, 19:23:30

This past week, I went to Legendary Beads, my local very nice bead store (and the place where joyce used to work for some years)..., expecting to buy something in particular that I needed. I never found what I was looking for—but that didn't stop me from spending a hundred bucks......

Among the beads that had arrived since my previous visit were these really beautiful variegated stone beads, that were identified as "jasper."

Although I know jasper can be any of lots of colors, and while I have a specimen that is opaque turquoise-blue, this is not a tone one sees very much—much less made into beads.

I'm not convinced these are jasper—and I am not even confident the colors are natural—the marketplace being what it has become. However, looking closely, what I see looks a lot like a mineral deposit in the crevices of a quartz-like material. Like crysocholla, or azurite and malachite.

We can see the group of beads life-size, and the large oval bead greatly enlarged. All of these beads are thin, flat tabular shapes. Any thoughts?

Jamey

406ja_jasper.jpg (37.4 KB)  407_ja_jasper.jpg (71.7 KB)  


Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Re: Has Anyone Seen this?
Re: Has Anyone Seen this? -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: TASART Post Reply
07/01/2009, 21:10:23

Hi Jamey, It looks like a variety of Chrysocolla, sometimes called Sonoran Sunrise and sometimes called Parrot Wing Chrysocolla, I suppose if it is cryptocrystaline enough some might call it Agate or mistakingly Jasper


Related link: Samples of Sonoran Sunrise

Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
"Ocean, Picture, Sea Sediment....."
Re: Has Anyone Seen this? -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Joyce Post Reply
07/01/2009, 23:06:46

Checking eBay for only the first 3 pages of over 17,000 listings under search "jasper beads" I didn't see any exactly like yours, Jamey. But there are a host of beautifully colored and patterned beads out there titled as many kinds of jasper. I can't help but to guess that these are mostly synthetic concoctions perhaps using recon genuine material, resins, dyes......Here's a pretty one titled "Sea Sediment Jasper". Most all beads from sellers in China.

Russ hopefully can provide some info. Below is the R & T gemstone index, a very helpful reference. But I don't notice Jamey's example or the "Sea Sediment" there yet.

Wish Si Frazier participated here too!

J0051B.jpg (92.3 KB)  

Related link: Rings and Things gemstone bead index: jasper
Modified by Joyce at Wed, Jul 01, 2009, 23:28:12

Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Re: "Ocean, Picture, Sea Sediment....."
Re: "Ocean, Picture, Sea Sediment....." -- Joyce Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
07/12/2019, 01:16:56

July 2019

A few years ago now, after having passed on acquiring "sea sediment jasper" beads I have: 1) bought a few of these; and 2) participated at some mineralogical fora, where this topic was pursued.

I have come to the inevitable conclusion that "sea sediment jasper" is a totally artificial material (!).

It is apparently a reconstructed material, possibly made from pulverized agate (or some convenient stone dust), glued-together (with epoxy or something else), and artificially hardened, so that it more-strongly resembles a hard stone. Also, the material is routinely presented in a variety of colors (some being very unnatural—like bright pink)—and some effort has been extended to make the material resemble the appearance of brecciated jasper.

So, this stuff is just a cheap fake. Jamey



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Re: "Swiss Lapis"
Re: Has Anyone Seen this? -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Stefany Post Reply
07/02/2009, 01:18:58

Jamey would you consider the suggestion that they are like the old "Swiss Lapis" = Jasper dyed in the early C20th in Idar-Oberstein, but where only streaky jasper has been used so it absorbs in a streaky way?
The colour appears very close, being a rather greeny turquoisey blue dye.
Stefany



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Re: Re: "Swiss Lapis"
Re: Re: "Swiss Lapis" -- Stefany Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
07/02/2009, 03:25:06

Hi Stefany,

I thought of "Swiss-dyed lapis" too--since the books say this was jasper that was artificially colored blue. I'm not positive I have seen this stuff in real life. Plus, the idea of "dying jasper" sounds like either a mistake (because you don't really dye quartz-family minerals--they being beizen in Germany), or the material was not jasper. Whatever. But, in any event, I have expected that stuff to be a dark blue like lapis, and not a greenish-blue like turquoise. The books describe the coloring agent as "Berlin blue," but this is meaningless to me anyway.

The present stones actually look as though a micro-crystalline mineral has been deposited in crevices—as happens with turquoise, chrysocolla, and lots of minerals. Of course, it's also possible that whatever this deposit is, it has also taken a green-blue dye very nicely, or whatever color treatment it might be.

After Thomas' post, I did some searching on the Net for "cuprite/chrysocolla," "parrot wing chrysocolla," and the like, and found LOTS of stuff (including "parrot jasper"), but nothing quite like the present material. The link Thomas gave is the closest. Also, if this is a fairly new find from México, that would explain why I haven't seen it before now--because it hasn't made it's way to every bead and mineral store in the country yet.

Thanks for your thoughts. Jamey



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Re: Re: Re: "Swiss Lapis"
Re: Re: Re: "Swiss Lapis" -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Stefany Post Reply
07/02/2009, 05:44:15

My grandmother liked "Swiss Lapis", and I have a few examples - a brooch set with a lovely large smooth-polished oval slice of it, a ring, and the beads such as are used in a necklace shown in The Bead Jewellery Book" page 33 near the centre of the page.
Unfortunately because of the yellowish background in my book one might not trust the colour as shown but it is indeed a deep but not very strong greenish version of blue, entirely opaque but not dark enough to be what I would call teal. They seem to use a jasper that starts off grey.
I would be ready to accept that the colour has been added in the way you have named "Beizen".
Perhaps someone may recognise the colour as similar in intensity to "Airforce blue" but slightly greener...?
Will do some more digging, when I get a minute...
Stefany



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Anyone got a "Chelsea Filter"?
Re: Re: Re: Re: "Swiss Lapis" -- Stefany Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Stefany Post Reply
07/02/2009, 05:56:22

"A lapis imitation known as "Swiss Lapis," or German Lapis" is created from dying paler varieties of chalcedony, ironstone or quartz jasper with ferrocyanide. A Chelsea Filter can be used to distinguish genuine lapis from Swiss lapis which will appear as red."
Quote from "khulsey.com"

Stefany



Modified by Stefany at Thu, Jul 02, 2009, 05:57:19

Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
AGTA report on glass imitating black onyx [chalcedony]
Re: Has Anyone Seen this? -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
07/02/2009, 09:32:25

Yes indeed, China is indeed getting very inventive on attractive stone imitations. Check out the attached link for an excellent imitation of black onyx [itself usually a treated stone].

Frankly, if manufactured product looks as good or better than mined - or in some cases completely new and different from any "natural" material - I see no harm in producing it.

The harm comes from mis-representing something - remember the "strawberry quartz" thing? Made the stone pretty much declasse.

While I realize that different cultural attitudes are at play here, a lot of the value of gemstone materials depends upon their rarity. Synthetics just aren't rare, no matter how attractive and durable they may be. So they're worth pennies.

The way the blue color follows the fissures in the material, I would place my money on these beads being dyed. Next bet would be some sort of glass.

Someone in your area has a gemological microscope, Jamey - have them take a look at these.


Related link: http://209.124.62.100/2009_06_23_News_flash.html
Modified by beadiste at Thu, Jul 02, 2009, 09:33:16

Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
What about glazed stone? At least not sold as 'black opal' ;-D
Re: AGTA report on glass imitating black onyx [chalcedony] -- beadiste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Snap Post Reply
07/02/2009, 19:13:35



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Glazed stone
Re: AGTA report on glass imitating black onyx [chalcedony] -- beadiste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
07/02/2009, 19:50:38

Well, an intriguing possibility, to be sure. If adhesion, spalling, fracturing, and coefficients of expansion could be worked out, say, perhaps with low-fired glazes....hmmmm....

I've always wondered if "crab fire agate" is in fact glazed quartz.


Related link: http://www.axner.com/axner/glazes/spectrumglaze-lowstone.php

Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Some Issues Raised Here.
Re: Has Anyone Seen this? -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
07/02/2009, 23:16:45

Lots of ideas have been brought up, that, unfortunately, cloud the waters much more than they clarify anything. Some of this is mistaken due to poor terminology and mistaken ideas (though popular and often-repeated). Some of it verges on what I tend to think of as "magic ideas," proposed when scientific information is available and reliable.

Stefany quotes, "A lapis imitation known as 'Swiss Lapis,' or 'German Lapis' is created from dying paler varieties of chalcedony, ironstone or quartz jasper with ferrocyanide."

The problem here is one of faulty phrasing on the part of the "expert." I have said this stuff over and over for YEARS...,but it seems to remain an under-appreciated distinction.

In the artificial coloring of minerals for jewelry and ornament applications, there are two VERY DIFFERENT approaches that have been traditionally taken for at least two centuries—and probably much longer (for some of them). The stones (usually in the microcsystalline quartz group—chalcedonies and agates, and perhaps jaspers) can be DYED—or they can be treated via the BEIZEN method (using chemicals to copy nature and impart color). Beizen stones ARE NOT DYED. Dyed stones are not "beizen."

Nevertheless, outside of Germany, very few authorities have made any effort to distinguish between these techniques and the results they create. Thus, they say or write "dyed," when this is technically inaccurate.

Backtracking for a second—the development of artifiically coloring and "enhancing" stones goes back to ca. 3,000 BCE, and has been practiced in one form or another for a very long time. But it was the technologically savvy Germans at Idar-Oberstein, at least since the 19th C., who made these skills into a scientific art. They provided colored stones to the rest of the world, and in the late 20th and early 21st Cs., the technology was transfered to Brazil and China (respectively). Now, the Chinese, particularly, are running with it, and going crazy.

To be as brief as possible, any stone can be dyed—this dying consisting of using organic pigments, that result in shallow penetration (so the stones are not usually colored in-the-mass), that are also temporary treatments. They are reversible, and prone to destruction via heat and exposure to ultraviolet (as from the sun!). Dyed stone eventually FADE!

In contrast, beizen stones are PERMANENTLY colored—because the process introduce metallic elements into the lattice of the stone (just as nature does). The result is a stone that is colored in-the-mass (not always 100 % successful, but usually so), and that is not attacked by heat or radiation (ultraviolt).

In terms of commerce, and being an astute collector—do you want to by a cheap dyed stone that's going to fade..., or do you want a high-tech permanent job that will look good forever? This is presuming we are still in the context of "enhancing" stones. I think most people would agree that a naturally-colored stone is superior to any that we are presently discussing. However, particularly NOW, the percentage of natural untreated stones is way in the minority—though there are plenty.

So, suggestions that the material we are discussing here has merely been "dyed," may completely miss the point. What I see in this material is not an accumulation of "dye." At the very least, the dye (if that's what it is) has colored a PART of the stone itself.

Then, if the material is not dyed, but rather is beizen, this application likewise has changed the blue parts of the material—and is not "dyed," and the color is not itself foreign to itself, but rather just colors that material.

OK. About frankly-fake materials that have been coming out of China for the past seven-or-so years. The first successful one was what is called "strawberry quartz," OR "cherry quartz." (There has been some suggestion that these "are different stones," and that "one is real and one isn't." However, these are just two different popular names for THE SAME MATERIAL exactly—and that material happens to be GLASS.) Right after "strawberry quartz" was introduced, the following year, it was available in other colors..., and now is routinely passed- off as any variety of semi-precious transparent stones.

The idea that the Chinese are making a "glass stone" that faithfully resembles the convolutions of agate and/or jasper—and that I or anyone might not recognize it, is nonsense! I have not spent forty years in this field, studying minerals and glass, in order to be fooled by some new amazing product. (Thus my admonition that this is a "magic syndrome.")

The question remains—is this a natural stone or a treated stone? I am reasonably sure it's not a "dyed" stone. But, knowing what the Chinese are now pursuing, I think it might be an enhanced beizen stone. I am certain it is not a "glass stone." But, seeing some of the varieties of chrysocolla that are exploited, and knowing a new variety from México has been discovered (thanks Thomas!), I am convinced there's every possibility that this is what the present stone may be.

I still have to wonder about a stone that is called "Swiss lapis," that is a color more resembling turquoise or any of the sky-blue stones (?). The beads I have seen, so-called (though I don't know that it was correct), were somewhere between lapis-blue and turquoise-blue—but closer to a dark blue.

Jamey



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Re: Some Issues Raised Here. testing your stone
Re: Some Issues Raised Here. -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Stefany Post Reply
07/02/2009, 23:35:20

Good information Jamey. Now to find a Chelsea Filter and establish whether the test of "Swiss Lapis" comes out the same as your stone, and whether its a test for "Beizen" or ordinary dye...
Stefany



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
That would be a task. I wonder where that be is.....?
Re: Re: Some Issues Raised Here. testing your stone -- Stefany Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
07/03/2009, 01:53:46



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Jamey, can you break a bead?
Re: Has Anyone Seen this? -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Joyce Post Reply
07/02/2009, 23:41:49



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users


Forum     Back