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Posted by: AnneLFG Post Reply
03/21/2019, 10:30:27

Found this on ETSY. Evidently a Vintage Venetian Trade Bead. NOT.

$165. deal

this part!!!: It is very difficult to put a date on these beads....

ETSY What?

This could be some kind of honest mistake, who really knows.

Twice I've gotten after someone on eBay. Once was a guy that was obviously into the Reenactment Scene that posted a Riker Box with a strand of new (on the raffia!!) African granular glass/ Sand Beads which were labeled as dug up on a Native American Site, etc and a high price. The second was some Antiques Dealer that had a big chunky strand of Dyed Red Chinese Bamboo Coral labeled as Antique Mediterranean Coral- really expensive too. She, at least replied and said they were Consigned, and she withdrew the listing.

I recently had the humbling experience of having to ReWrite and ReThink one of my listings that I had fouled up. It happens. Are we the Bead Police? Of course not, However I would think it prudent to give a shout out where due in the more blatant cases. A friendly heads up to the seller might save them a bad mark on their seller's Hx, from an irate buyer. Or if they are buying from an unscrupulous Bead Seller they won't make that costly mistake again.

Bead lover, collector since Age 15, semi-retired had wholesale/retail bead, folk art, tribal art store Lost and Found Gallery for 25 yrs. in DT Greensboro, NC

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Ceramic!
Re: ETSY What? -- AnneLFG Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
03/21/2019, 12:44:26

These are ceramic beads from the 1960s (+ or -), that have decorations devised from transfers. If I remember correctly, they were said to be Greek. But, in any event, they are not Venetian, and certainly not millefiori.

Jamey



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Re: Ceramic!
Re: Ceramic! -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: AnneLFG Post Reply
03/21/2019, 15:37:30

If you speak French (She's in Canada) maybe you should break the Bad News..!?

I may later. GTK that they might be Greek Transfer-pattern ceramic, or the like. looked that way to me also, though had no clue of origin. Just thought Craft World.

Bead lover, collector since Age 15, semi-retired had wholesale/retail bead, folk art, tribal art store Lost and Found Gallery for 25 yrs. in DT Greensboro, NC

Modified by AnneLFG at Thu, Mar 21, 2019, 15:41:11

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Some of the misrepresentation of beads are hilarious
Re: ETSY What? -- AnneLFG Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
03/21/2019, 15:40:26

My all-time favorite was "First Century Islamic" beads, by a history-challenged seller - they were actually Venetian if I recall correctly.

Another beauty was "pre-contact" South American beads that were also clearly Venetian. I could not get the seller to explain how European beads arrived in the new world BEFORE anyone from Europe got there!

And I occasionally see phenolic resin beads "from the 19th century" when the first production of this material was 1910.



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Re: Some of the misrepresentation of beads are hilarious
Re: Some of the misrepresentation of beads are hilarious -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: AnneLFG Post Reply
03/21/2019, 15:46:23

You had me laughing- THANKS! I needed a good laugh today! (3 months waiting for my RA Med to get approved & delivered...)

I like the 7 layer "Pig in a Blanket" construct from Indian? Chevrons and Fimo? wrap that was posted in here a few weeks back! That was like one of the Craziest things I've ever seen. It too had like the best, most far-fetched story...!

Bead lover, collector since Age 15, semi-retired had wholesale/retail bead, folk art, tribal art store Lost and Found Gallery for 25 yrs. in DT Greensboro, NC

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Cast phenolic plastics that imitate amber largely post-date 1926 (!).
Re: Some of the misrepresentation of beads are hilarious -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
03/24/2019, 13:08:06



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I don't totally agree and I'm still digging up info on the early years of phenolic resin
Re: Cast phenolic plastics that imitate amber largely post-date 1926 (!). -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
03/24/2019, 18:54:36

I recently found three references, in French journals (thank you Marie-Jose Opper!), to Faturan, one dated 1913, naming it a "product imitating amber", and two dated 1919. Faturan was a German trade name for phenolic resin. I inspected a bead card labeled Faturan in the Jablonec Glass Museum archives and this product was a cast resin. Also a number of other German commercial phenolic resins products are described in Die Perle, a German jewelry trade magazine (started in 1924). All sound like cast products and some specifically were for faux amber.

Baekeland's original patents (1909) described cast resins as well as the compression molded versions with and without fillers. Patents by others in the US and Europe followed almost immediately and Baekeland was vigorously defending his by 1914. The Bakelite factories did not produce a lot of cast products, but Bakelite was described as available in different "gleaming" colors (which sounds like cast products) in a 1924 book.

In Carleton Ellis' industrial chemistry book published in 1923, cast phenolics are specifically mentioned for beads, indicating that these products were available prior to that date in sufficient quantity to merit mention.

My investigation found that Bakelite Corp did not abandon its cast product line until 1929. The Catalin Corp. began to manufacture cast phenolics around 1926. However the Catalin Corp early years were considered "stormy" with an "inefficient plant" and not an especially viable business until the early 1930s.

IMHO beads were being produced from the new faux amber resins as soon as they were available in the 1910s. I might agree that the quantities were larger starting in the 1920s, but 1926 is not a magic date. It certainly appears that the 1920s and 1930s (and maybe into the 1940s) were the "hey-days" of cast phenolic beads. I don't think 1926 has any particular significance except perhaps for the Catalin Corp. It's also a mistake to be too "US-centric" when looking into phenolic bead production.



Modified by Rosanna at Sun, Mar 24, 2019, 19:51:50

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My response is similar (!)
Re: I don't totally agree and I'm still digging up info on the early years of phenolic resin -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
03/24/2019, 20:07:14

You say, "I might agree that the quantities were larger starting in the 1920s, but 1926 is not a magic date."

1926 sort of IS a "magic date." It was the year that the Bakelite company announced their NEW LINE of translucent colored phenolic plastics. And, it was in 1928, two years later, that Catelin negotiated and received the Bakelite Patent, and began to produce their own lines of cast phenolic goods.


You say, "It certainly appears that the 1920s and 1930s (and maybe into the 1940s) were the "hey-days" of cast phenolic beads."

GREAT. THAT is what I said. J.



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Re: My response is similar (!)/ Some more USA Bakelite info
Re: My response is similar (!) -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: AnneLFG Post Reply
03/29/2019, 05:30:55

While this does not reflect the activity in Europe, it does give some general info on Bakelite in USA per "Bakelite: Mystery, History & Facts" By Brad Elfrink

"Dr. Leo H. Baekland invented Bakelite by accident in 1907 while trying to produce a less flammable shellac for bowling alley floors."...

"By 1922 bakelite’s production increased so much that the General Bakelite Company found it necessary to merge with two other companies, the Redmanol Chemical Products Company and The Condensite Company, under a new name “The Bakelite Corporation” in order to keep up with the increased demand for the material. In September of 1924, Time Magazine ran a short article about Bakelite which reads as follows….

“Bakelite.” Superficially, it is a composition, born of fire and mystery, having the rigor and brilliance of glass, the luster of amber from the Isles. Poetically, it is a resin formed from equal parts of phenol and formaldehyde, in the presence of a base, by the application of heat. It will not burn. It will not melt. It is used in pipe stems, fountain pens, billiard balls, telephone fixtures, castanets, radiator caps, etc.. "

"In 1927 the Bakelite patent expired and was acquired by the Catalin Corporation that same year. The Catalin Corporation refined the Bakelite formula and manufacturing process to create cast phenolic resins and renamed the material as Catalin. Dr. Baekeland had actually patented cast phenolics in 1909 with bakelite, and his company produced the cast resins in small amounts until around 1929 when the demand for the molded materials became so high that the company focused on them instead."

ARTICLE: http://www.elvenkrafte.com/bakelite%20presentation.htm

Bead lover, collector since Age 15, semi-retired had wholesale/retail bead, folk art, tribal art store Lost and Found Gallery for 25 yrs. in DT Greensboro, NC

Modified by AnneLFG at Fri, Mar 29, 2019, 05:38:43

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Some missing info...
Re: Re: My response is similar (!)/ Some more USA Bakelite info -- AnneLFG Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
03/29/2019, 09:47:50

Hi Anne,
Actually Baekeland successfully sued the Redmanol and Condensite Corps for patent infringement and took over the two companies as a result of the lawsuit. In other words he was awarded damages that amounted to owning the two companies. Not really a situation of "finding it necessary to merge". Well at least I wouldn't put it that charitably.

It's hard to find good info on the web - I've been looking into the history of Bakelite for over 3 years now. I am familiar with both of the sources you found. I summarized a lot of my findings in the BEADS article I wrote for volume 28, 2016. See link on the BCN Articles page for the paper on Imitation Amber Beads of Phenolic Resin.

The best article on the history of the Bakelite Corp. was published in March 1936 in Fortune Magazine - I have it but it is not accessible on the web as far as I know. It dishes a lot of dirt on the people behind the various companies that went into competition with Baekeland.

Over in Europe, it seems that the Germans in particular went into production with competitive products almost immediately - I base this on scanty evidence but the 1913 mention of Faturan is suggestive. Baekeland also filed European patents and he went to court there as well. I have not delved too far into what specifically happened but one reference in a German chemical index says that the successful defense of the German patents allowed the development of an independent phenolic resin industry in Germany. It appears that this industry was up and thriving before 1926. I don't have any production figures for either Germany or the US prior to 1926, but I believe that the info I have points to significant production in the early 1920s and possibly before.

This is why I consider the year 1926 not a useful milestone when dating cast phenolic resin beads - I think a lot were made in Europe as well as in the US before that date. In particular, the many graduated bead necklaces, both faceted and smooth, that we now call "cherry amber" because the phenolic resin formulation did not have a stable amber color, are very suggestive of the early days of production when the color instability was a noted problem.

I know that the cherry amber beads were originally yellow amber colored because I fractured some and found that the red was confined to a thin surface layer. The fractured surfaces have slowly turned red over the last 3 years sitting out in the air in my office. Some products were reported to change color in only a few weeks. There's a lot of chemical info in the patents and early texts about this - too much to try and review here.

Last year I visited the Plastics Historical Society archives and copied some info, which I am still digesting. I am still on the lookout for early phenolic resin bead info so if anyone finds anything interesting, please let me know!



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Re: I don't totally agree and I'm still digging up info on the early years of phenolic resin
Re: I don't totally agree and I'm still digging up info on the early years of phenolic resin -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: AnneLFG Post Reply
03/29/2019, 06:22:51

Hi, I did find this from the Plastic Historical Society/ PHS:

James Swinburn, seeking a material for electrical insulation purposes, developed the previous work of Baeyer, Smith and the Austrian chemist Luft.
Both Smith and Luft succeeded in obtaining only insoluble, infusible resinous products which were impossible to mould. (ICI. 1962).
In 1904 Swinburn developed a formula for phenolic resin, whilst in the same year establishing the Fireproof Celluloid Syndicate Ltd. to commercialise the product. This commercialisation was not very successful although a very usable lacquer, for the protection of brass and other metal surfaces, was produced and sold well. By 1910 this lacquer was the dominant company product and the name of the firm was changed to the Damard Lacquer Company.
In parallel to this L.H. Baekeland, working in New York, was also investigating the phenol formaldehyde reaction in the search for an electrical insulating material.
Arthur Smith, in England, took out the first patent for the use of phenolic resins, as they were called, in 1899 (it happened to be for electrical insulation), and five years later an electrical engineer, James Swinburne, established the Fireproof Celluloid Syndicate in London to manufacture and sell the same sort of material. However, neither of these ventures was technically or commercially successful. Baekeland was therefore not tilling virgin soil … (Kaufman 1968).
From 1902 onwards, after five years research, and in a masterpiece of chemical investigation, Baekeland succeeded in producing a synthetic resin which he called Bakelite, registering his ‘Heat and Pressure’ patent on July 13th 1907. Unfortunately this material did not prove itself to be easily mouldable and it is his patent of October 1908 that really covers what is now considered to be a mouldable Bakelite material.
Baekeland was not the first chemist to make a resin …(from phenol and formaldehyde) ….. but he was the first to make a resin which could be used to manufacture useful things (Farrell 1955)."

It goes from there to the USA Baekeland 1908 Patent for Bakelite..

Here is the WHOLE ARTICLE:http://plastiquarian.com/?page_id=14339

Bead lover, collector since Age 15, semi-retired had wholesale/retail bead, folk art, tribal art store Lost and Found Gallery for 25 yrs. in DT Greensboro, NC

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Re: I don't totally agree and I'm still digging up info ..../ More Info For You
Re: I don't totally agree and I'm still digging up info on the early years of phenolic resin -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: AnneLFG Post Reply
03/29/2019, 06:29:05

Hi, I did find this from the Plastic Historical Society/ PHS:

"James Swinburn, seeking a material for electrical insulation purposes, developed the previous work of Baeyer, Smith and the Austrian chemist Luft. Both Smith and Luft succeeded in obtaining only insoluble, infusible resinous products which were impossible to mould. (ICI. 1962). In 1904 Swinburn developed a formula for phenolic resin, whilst in the same year establishing the Fireproof Celluloid Syndicate Ltd. to commercialise the product. This commercialisation was not very successful although a very usable lacquer, for the protection of brass and other metal surfaces, was produced and sold well.

"By 1910 this lacquer was the dominant company product and the name of the firm was changed to the Damard Lacquer Company. In parallel to this L.H. Baekeland, working in New York, was also investigating the phenol formaldehyde reaction in the search for an electrical insulating material. Arthur Smith, in England, took out the first patent for the use of phenolic resins, as they were called, in 1899 (it happened to be for electrical insulation), and five years later an electrical engineer, James Swinburne, established the Fireproof Celluloid Syndicate in London to manufacture and sell the same sort of material. However, neither of these ventures was technically or commercially successful. Baekeland was therefore not tilling virgin soil … (Kaufman 1968)."

"From 1902 onwards, after five years research, and in a masterpiece of chemical investigation, Baekeland succeeded in producing a synthetic resin which he called Bakelite, registering his ‘Heat and Pressure’ patent on July 13th 1907. Unfortunately this material did not prove itself to be easily mouldable and it is his patent of October 1908 that really covers what is now considered to be a mouldable Bakelite material.

"Baekeland was not the first chemist to make a resin …(from phenol and formaldehyde) ….. but he was the first to make a resin which could be used to manufacture useful things (Farrell 1955)."

It goes from there to the USA Baekeland 1908 Patent for Bakelite.. "

Here is the WHOLE ARTICLE:http://plastiquarian.com/?page_id=14339

Bead lover, collector since Age 15, semi-retired had wholesale/retail bead, folk art, tribal art store Lost and Found Gallery for 25 yrs. in DT Greensboro, NC

Modified by AnneLFG at Fri, Mar 29, 2019, 06:31:47

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From 2006
Re: Re: I don't totally agree and I'm still digging up info ..../ More Info For You -- AnneLFG Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
04/01/2019, 15:09:00

Here is a dialogue from 2006, in which I divulge (as I have done countless times) the differences between Bakelite and cast phenolic plastics.

My perspective has changed a little since then—but it is a very little. JDA.

http://beadcollector.net/cgi-bin/anyboard.cgi?fvp=/openforum/&cmd=iYz&aK=41103&iZz=41103&gV=0&kQz=&aO=1&iWz=0


Related link: http://beadcollector.net/cgi-bin/anyboard.cgi?fvp=/openforum/&cmd=iYz&aK=41103&iZz=41103&gV=0&kQz=&aO=1&iWz=0

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Bakelite Corp. made cast phenolic resins before 1926
Re: From 2006 -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
04/01/2019, 16:59:05

Both the Bakelite Corp and numerous European firms (and probably some other US ones that Baekeland sued) were making cast phenolic resins before 1926.

All of Bakelite's products were called Bakelite, not just the more industrial, filled and press molded compositions. The cast resin products were a "small" part of the Bakelite production, but not that much material, poundage-wise, would have been needed to make a LOT of beads.

The information you had from 2006 and earlier was a good start but incomplete. I repeat my debunking of 1926 as some sort of milestone date for dating phenolic beads.

Here are excerpts about the Bakelite cast resin products from two of the references I used in my research. They both are from 1924 and it would not be much of a stretch to assume the products were available for a number of years before. My 1923 chemistry text for instance talks about cast phenolics for imitation amber as if it was an established product for all types of applications, including a specific mention of beads in several places.

After reviewing my sources again, I found more discussion of how Catalin really did not take off until 1929 -1930. So I will modify my previous general statements as follows:

From 1910 to 1930, cast phenolic resins were being made and used as faux amber as well as in other colors, for beads & jewelry, by the Bakelite Corp and a number of European firms. The earliest mention of European cast resin for imitation amber (that I have found so far) was in 1913 for the German product Faturan. After 1930, in the US, the Catalin Corp. became the dominate maker of cast phenolic resin due to the Bakelite Corp discontinuing its product lines in 1929 (per Fortune Magazine March 1936).

That's my perspective and I welcome the opportunity to change it upon discovery of more data.

StoryOfBakelite.jpg (76.9 KB)  BakeliteJewelryBook.jpg (84.6 KB)  


Modified by Rosanna at Wed, Apr 03, 2019, 00:03:10

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Re: Bakelite Corp.
Re: Bakelite Corp. made cast phenolic resins before 1926 -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
04/02/2019, 04:30:12

"All of Bakelite's products were called Bakelite."
According to whom, and when?

"Here are excepts about the Bakelite cast resin products from two of the references I used in my research. They both are from 1924 and it would not be much of a stretch to assume the products were available for a number of years before."
"Not much of a stretch"? OK. WHAT beads would those be?

I provide practical information based on reasonable generalizations. My ideas are based on published technical and commercial publications, that (apparently) you have not seen. But I have discussed them multiple times.

I largely do not disagree with you, except in terms of practicality. I make remarks. You disagree, and then you say (essentially) the same thing I said. That is not much of a disagreement.

JDA.



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More info about Bakelite products pre-1926
Re: Re: Bakelite Corp. -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
04/02/2019, 08:44:21

I'd love to see your reference material.

Here's a cut from a Newsletter I just received this morning. The source of the information is a 94-year old woman, Mrs. Nancy Byck Welch, who is the daughter of one of Baekeland's first employees. She was interviewed by Reindert Groot, who runs the Amsterdam Bakelite Collection.

The clip indicates that Bakelite jewelry was made by the Embed Art Co. up to 1926, and that European competition put them out of business. Which conforms my view that beads were being made from cast phenolic resins before 1926, in both Europe and the US. I am currently trying to get in contact with Reindert and find out more about the history of Embed Art Co., especially when they began production of beads. Or possibly visit Mrs. Welch myself since she lives in the US.

My intention is to add information that may be of use to the bead world. My main disagreement is with your contention that there were no cast resin beads before 1926. I think this is misleading to bead collectors as I have evidence to the contrary. I also have firm evidence that the Bakelite Corp. made both cast and molded products so your contention that there are NO cast resins from Bakelite Co. is in error.

I don't think your advice is practical, since it isn't accurate. There is new information unearthed about beads of all types, all the time, and we should be willing to incorporate it into our research.

EmbedArtCompany.jpg (58.1 KB)  


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All Bakelite products were called Bakelite
Re: Re: Bakelite Corp. -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
04/02/2019, 17:10:48

General answer to your first question - according to industrial trade journals and texts that I've read. I have not found any exceptions up to the point where the Bakelite Corp. merged with Union Carbide in 1939. I haven't looked at much info beyond that date.

Specifically, here are copies of two texts: The first is from The Chemistry of Synthetic Resins by Carleton Ellis (1935). The codes m, l, s, t next to Bakelite stand for molding composition, laminated, soluble type, and turnery type (cast and machined articles).

The second is from Handbook of Plastics by Herbert Simmons and Carleton Ellis (1943). Note that all the products, not just phenolics, are all called Bakelite. This is typical of a lot of chemical companies.

Ellis1935Bakelite.jpg (59.6 KB)  Ellis1943Bakelite1.jpg (35.4 KB)  


Modified by Rosanna at Tue, Apr 02, 2019, 17:12:06

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Bakelite Cast Phenolic Resins
Re: All Bakelite products were called Bakelite -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
04/02/2019, 17:17:02

They existed, and they were called Bakelite Cast Resins. If they were discontinued as products in the mid-late 20s, it appears they were back in production sometime before the 1935 book was published.

Excerpt from the 1943 Simmons & Ellis text mentioned above.

Ellis1943Bakelite2.jpg (30.8 KB)  


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