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blue Chinese glass beads
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Posted by: lindabd Post Reply
02/23/2019, 08:54:04

Hello!

Pictured below are two necklaces. The long knotted one is often presented as "Deco era" 1920s "Peking glass" ,but I wonder if it isn't a lot more recent - maybe even produced currently? The beads it should be said, are really great looking and well presented with the double knots. Such a color!

The other necklace is also make with blue glass beads but these are deeper in color and seem more refined. I wonder if this might actually be a Deco era necklace. The silver work with the little foo dog links is very fine.

I would appreciate any information on either strand.

Thank you!

2_copy.jpg (205.6 KB)  IMG_8312_copy.jpg (222.7 KB)  


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Re: blue Chinese glass beads- about the knots
Re: blue Chinese glass beads -- lindabd Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: stefany Post Reply
02/23/2019, 12:38:47

the vintage chinese knotted necklaces are always beautifully regular and its probably silk if the necklace is not contemporary.
i find simple double knots - an extra turn in an overhand knot- are not useful for beads because they are not very fat and elongate over time, while the more fancy ones such as are called "Matthew Walker", or "Crowning" make a good compact cushion shape - they are much more work but the result can look and feel secure.-otherwise i teach my students how to use enough thread thickness to fill the holes of the beads so when tightened up in the best way our ordinary knots can't slide inside...



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Re: Re: blue Chinese glass beads- about the knots
Re: Re: blue Chinese glass beads- about the knots -- stefany Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: lindabd Post Reply
02/23/2019, 23:20:42

Wow! I've now looked up instructions regarding the Matthew Walker knot. Are these necklaces knotted by hand?
This necklace does appear to be knotted with silk. Would vintage mean 1980s or 90s?
Thank you Stefany!



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Re: Re: Re: blue Chinese glass beads- about the knots
Re: Re: Re: blue Chinese glass beads- about the knots -- lindabd Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: stefany Post Reply
02/24/2019, 01:04:11

i don't think a machine can do it- and of course specially in the far east we assume plenty of people trained in these skills were/are always available even if not well paid.
-i used the term "vintage" to avoid being too specific! i really meant classic style but less than 100 yrs old-



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Check the silk with a loupe - is it actually faded, and still blue in areas hidden from light?
Re: blue Chinese glass beads -- lindabd Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
02/24/2019, 13:19:19

That's what I've seen on the Deco-era Chinese glass necklaces that have passed through my hands.



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Re: Check the silk with a loupe - is it actually faded, and still blue in areas hidden from light?
Re: Check the silk with a loupe - is it actually faded, and still blue in areas hidden from light? -- beadiste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: lindabd Post Reply
02/24/2019, 20:12:27

Yes! I just had a look and indeed the knots are faded to a pale muddy blue and the silk under the beads is closer to indigo.
Thank you Chris and Stefany!



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Are there more recent versions of necklaces like these? Any thoughts about the choker
Re: Re: Check the silk with a loupe - is it actually faded, and still blue in areas hidden from light? -- lindabd Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: lindabd Post Reply
02/24/2019, 20:21:04



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Buddhist lions
Re: Are there more recent versions of necklaces like these? Any thoughts about the choker -- lindabd Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
02/24/2019, 21:53:46

It's hard for me to believe that the silver links are post-WWII, just considering workmanship and motif.

What are often called Fu Dogs might more accurately be called lions, it seems.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_guardian_lions



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Re: Chinese Knots
Re: blue Chinese glass beads -- lindabd Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
02/26/2019, 00:19:40

Hello Linda,

I have to disagree with my friend Stefany—in principle. However, I would like to see your knotted beads much more closely to be certain what I am about to write is accurate.

Chinese necklaces of knotted glass beads, composed ca. 100 years ago, often using Chinese glass beads (formerly called "Peking glass"), were knotted using what can be called a "Turk's head stopper knot." The name is not really apt, because a Turk's head is not something incorporated within necklace strands—but rather is a separate fiber "bead" (for all intents and purposes), that is strung onto a necklace, between the other beads. The "Turk's head stopper knot" looks very much like a Turk's head, but, as I said, is composed using the strands that make up the necklace. Typically these were two strands.

The Matthew Walker knot (MW) is very different—in making and appearance. It is typically made by unraveling a rope into basic strands, and then manipulating these. So a Matthew Walker knot might have three, four or more strands in its composition—depending on the rope used.

Likewise, crowning is a different application of cords, with a different appearance. However, like the MW knot it can be composed with three or four cords—these typically being used within and as the lines of the necklace (but not derived from a rope). The appearance of a chain of crowns is likewise different from the Chinese technique, and different from a MW knot.

The Turk's head stopper knot (THSK) demands only two cords or lines, and is based on a Carrick bend.

Back in the early 1970s, when I began collecting Chinese glass beads, I saw long necklaces composed with THSKs—there being a single fancy knot between each bead. The THSK looks exactly like a braid seen horizontally and in-the-round. Or it can be compared to basket-weaving. (Neither the MW nor crowned chains look like this.)

For several years it was my goal to learn to tie this knot. I reasoned that it could not be that difficult, because little Chinese ladies tied thousands of them. And eventually I found a fellow bead-stringer (Lois Curry) who demonstrated that she could tie one in a few moments. But I didn't actually teach myself until I viewed the book, Knots Useful and Ornamental—that is actually fairly similar to the Ashley Book of Knots. (I have both volumes.). I used the THSK occasionally, but not often enough to get really good at it. So far, I have made only one necklace that has a THSK tied between each bead. But it is a staple in my bead stringing class, that I teach this skill to anyone who is not too tired—at the end of my two-day classes. In fact, about ten days ago, at Tucson, I taught both crowning and the THSK to my friend and neighbor, David Ebbinghouse.

OK, well this is getting very wordy. Let's sum-up.

I SUSPECT that your necklace most-likely has THSKs between the beads. I am reasonably certain they are not MW knots nor crowning. But only a CLOSE photo will demonstrate this for sure.

My first reaction to your second necklace was that these might not be Chinese beads at all. However, once I took a closer look at the silver pieces (that do appear to be Chinese—though not something I am specifically familiar with), I decided they are probably not European, but rather are just somewhat-more-nicely-made Chinese glass beads.

Be well. Jamey



Modified by Beadman at Tue, Feb 26, 2019, 09:48:22

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Re: Re: Chinese Knots
Re: Re: Chinese Knots -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Stefany Post Reply
02/26/2019, 07:08:48

Glad you have resurfaced Jamey- i hoped you would come in with details of all these knots- xxx S



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Re: Re: Chinese Knots
Re: Re: Chinese Knots -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: lindabd Post Reply
02/26/2019, 07:57:03

Cheers Beadman!
Thank you so much for this great information.
For those of you following along, there are close up photos of the knots.
These are really pretty knots!

IMG_8387.jpg (115.7 KB)  IMG_8388.jpg (53.3 KB)  


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Re: Re: Re: Chinese Knots
Re: Re: Re: Chinese Knots -- lindabd Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
02/26/2019, 09:56:03

Hi Linda,

Thank you for posting the close-up photos.

However I am surprised by what I see—and not convinced I know what the knots are.

So I have an additional question. Can you move a bead away from the knot, and determine how many cords are running through the necklace?

As mentioned previously, the THSK only requires two lines. The MW knots usually have three or four lines; and crowning requires at least three lines—and it might be four.

I will try to show some actual Chinese THSKs, if I can put my hands on them.

J.



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Re: Re: Re: Re: Chinese Knots
Re: Re: Re: Re: Chinese Knots -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: lindabd Post Reply
02/26/2019, 10:30:10

Well, looks to me like two strands of 2 ply twisted cord.
Hard to get a good photo - but here's what I have.

IMG_8399.jpg (177.0 KB)  IMG_8400.jpg (200.9 KB)  


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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Chinese Knots- excellent detailed images!
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Chinese Knots -- lindabd Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: stefany Post Reply
02/26/2019, 10:46:48



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Re: Re: Chinese Knots/THSK? PIC
Re: Re: Chinese Knots -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: AnneLFG Post Reply
03/20/2019, 11:29:47

This example would be showing the Turks Head Stopper Knot then? I mean the knots on each side of the bead.

Image of "Mandarin Court Beads" taken from the internet:

http://susandods.com/picturebook/gallery/PictureBook/10-02-01_Chinese_Mandarin_Court_Necklace_Beads_pt_1/4_1.JPG

Bead lover, collector since Age 15, semi-retired had wholesale/retail bead, folk art, tribal art store Lost and Found Gallery for 25 yrs. in DT Greensboro, NC

Modified by AnneLFG at Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 11:37:59

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Square knotting? on Chinese Amber Glass Necklace 1930s?
Re: blue Chinese glass beads -- lindabd Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
02/27/2019, 11:02:03

Considering the graduated style, tiny clasp, nice quality of the beads - circa 1920s-30s?

Will post some more pics of carved glass bead necklaces that also feature this style of knotting.

ChineseAmberGlassEarly20thCenturyA.jpg (183.4 KB)  ChineseAmberGlassEarly20thCentury.jpg (183.3 KB)  


Modified by beadiste at Wed, Feb 27, 2019, 11:02:14

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More square knotting
Re: Square knotting? on Chinese Amber Glass Necklace 1930s? -- beadiste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
02/27/2019, 11:02:51

2_BlueChineseGlassA.jpg (50.3 KB)  SAM_8423.JPG (248.2 KB)  


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Re: A Granny (!)
Re: More square knotting -- beadiste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
02/28/2019, 15:25:49

A chain of square knots around drag lines yields a flat sennet. It's somewhat counter-productive to use this between beads, because it's flat. Chains (of knots) that produce a circular aspect are much more successful—because the cording is the same from any angle.

A chain of flat square knots is accomplished by alternating left-over and right-over passes. These two passes together make one square knot (around a drag line—which is the basis of macramé). In a corded section, these steps are repeated. Square knots are also desirable because they stay in place well—and are thus "good knots."

On the other hand, if, using the same set-up, you proceed to tie left-over passes (and do not alternate with right-over passes), you create what is called a "granny." This chain of passes (that are not "knots," because they are not stable and sound) will give you the appearance of a spiraled chain of cords.

THIS is what we see in the necklaces Chris has shown. So, NOT "square knots."

JDA.



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Re: Square knotting? on Chinese Amber Glass Necklace 1930s?/MACRAME Knotting
Re: Square knotting? on Chinese Amber Glass Necklace 1930s? -- beadiste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: AnneLFG Post Reply
03/20/2019, 08:08:17

I'm jumping in here kinda late, so may not be answering the correct question at this point. Although I believe point is knot variety used in Antique & Vintage Chinese necklaces?

I see basic Macrame knotting, on what you are calling "square knotting"and a macrame spiral pattern in the last few images. Sounds like you know this though?

This image off the internet of a reportedly Circa1900's Peking Glass Basketweave Glass necklace looks like it has the twisted cords, then is using the "basic" Macrame tying techniques...another example of the same as yours I believe (though NOT the OP's)

https://i.pinimg.com/564x/64/02/ab/6402abacb3000bca9ffe5a459f384be7.jpg

Bead lover, collector since Age 15, semi-retired had wholesale/retail bead, folk art, tribal art store Lost and Found Gallery for 25 yrs. in DT Greensboro, NC

Modified by AnneLFG at Wed, Mar 20, 2019, 10:54:30

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Twisted silk knotting - endless knot beads in that limpid light sapphire glass
Re: blue Chinese glass beads -- lindabd Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
02/27/2019, 11:05:52

The silk is deteriorating, but ends show 4 strands of twist.
Holes are comparatively small, so no need for giant knots.

ChineseGlassEndlessKnot.jpg (251.4 KB)  


Modified by beadiste at Wed, Feb 27, 2019, 11:21:19

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Knotting 1910s
Re: blue Chinese glass beads -- lindabd Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
02/27/2019, 11:08:27

Based upon comment from previous owner of the necklace with the tassels that it dated to "1908."

These seem to be re-cycled court beads, with that fine braid used for the knots. One of the pics, IIRC, is from Susan Dods.

1_ChineseLavalier_003.jpg (106.2 KB)  BlueChineseGlasswithKnotting.JPG (142.8 KB)  


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Court Necklace / Hat finial style beads in light sapphire glass
Re: Knotting 1910s -- beadiste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
02/27/2019, 11:13:23

The large bead seems of a type used in mandarin hat finials.

The smaller beads seem carefully made from good glass, have smoothed largish holes, are of a type that could have been used in court necklaces?

ChineseGlassLavalierA.jpg (249.6 KB)  ChineseGlassLavalier.jpg (224.6 KB)  


Modified by beadiste at Wed, Feb 27, 2019, 11:18:40

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Chinese button knot
Re: Knotting 1910s -- beadiste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
02/27/2019, 11:29:08

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_button_knot

I've used this guy's video demo before to tie a knot using just one thread end - he shows the tightening sequence.

https://www.tanglesnknots.com/pages/chinese-button-knot



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Chinese Button Knot - One Cord End
Re: Chinese button knot -- beadiste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
02/27/2019, 11:33:31

ButtonKnotOneCord.jpg (51.5 KB)  


Modified by beadiste at Wed, Feb 27, 2019, 11:34:03

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Re: Chinese Button Knot
Re: Chinese button knot -- beadiste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
02/28/2019, 15:32:58

The "Chinese button knot" is exactly the same knot I described as the "Turk's head stopper knot."

Your photos avert the need for me to find a photo specimen—so thank you for that. J.



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Seems I have a necklace similar to yours...
Re: blue Chinese glass beads -- lindabd Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
02/27/2019, 17:06:55

12mm beads, 44 inches long, tiny button knots separating the limpid light sapphire beads, strung on a double strand of twisted threads.

One hefty strand of beads, hangs to my waist.

ChineseGlassButtonKnotsA.jpg (140.1 KB)  ChineseGlassButtonKnots.jpg (250.7 KB)  


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Button knot with two cords
Re: Seems I have a necklace similar to yours... -- beadiste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
02/27/2019, 17:14:49



Modified by beadiste at Wed, Feb 27, 2019, 17:15:29

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beads and knots
Re: Seems I have a necklace similar to yours... -- beadiste Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: lindabd Post Reply
02/28/2019, 08:52:22

Thank you for the knot information!
Your necklace is indeed very similar to mine - though my beads are 1cm in diameter and the strand is 49" long.
I'm attaching images of two more necklaces using square knots, one of carved bone beads and one of MCN carved pit beads. Perhaps both necklaces were put together in early 20th c. ?

il_570xN.1512074697_bq82.jpg (61.6 KB)  IMG_2575_copy.JPG (176.3 KB)  


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Is 1910+ 2-ply silk cord still available and where?
Re: blue Chinese glass beads -- lindabd Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: jrj Post Reply
03/19/2019, 17:21:36

I especially like the cord in the necklace on the left and would love to acquire some of it for my Chinese glass beads. Any suggestions about where it can be purchased would be greatly appreciated.

1_1_ChineseLavalier_003.jpg (106.2 KB)  


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Or vintage or modern single ply sim. to antique silk cord still available?
Re: Is 1910+ 2-ply silk cord still available and where? -- jrj Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: jrj Post Reply
03/23/2019, 16:41:01

Alternatively, can anyone suggest where I could find a vintage or modern single silk cord similar to one ply of antique double ply cord? All suggestions greatly appreciated.



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Contact Marion at jewelsinfiber.com
Re: Or vintage or modern single ply sim. to antique silk cord still available? -- jrj Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
03/24/2019, 06:46:41

If she doesn’t have what you need, she may know where to get it. She imports a lot of traditional knotting cord, plus loads of silk. And there is tutorial on making your own two ply silk cord from available products.



Modified by Rosanna at Sun, Mar 24, 2019, 06:56:07

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Thank you!
Re: Contact Marion at jewelsinfiber.com -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: jrj Post Reply
03/24/2019, 23:59:54



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