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fake or true
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Posted by: alin Post Reply
07/19/2018, 09:17:58

i found a piece as pic shown,is it fake or true?it is copper material.

1_mmexport1532016671632.jpg (59.9 KB)  


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What do you mean by "true"? Please let us know what you think is being faked.
Re: fake or true -- alin Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
07/19/2018, 11:32:06



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Re: What do you mean by "true"? Please let us know what you think is being faked.
Re: What do you mean by "true"? Please let us know what you think is being faked. -- Rosanna Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: alin Post Reply
07/19/2018, 18:31:41

true,i mean genuine old



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Please make an impression in wax or clay.
Re: Re: What do you mean by "true"? Please let us know what you think is being faked. -- alin Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
07/19/2018, 21:20:03

Probably fake. Usually seals are made from stone. And they are graded by the impression they make in clay or wax. In this case, the pits in the surface are going to become part of the pattern -not good.



Modified by Frederick II at Fri, Jul 20, 2018, 01:50:00

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Some more information, please
Re: Re: What do you mean by "true"? Please let us know what you think is being faked. -- alin Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Rosanna Post Reply
07/19/2018, 22:52:46

Alin, I guess what I would like is more specific information about this bead / cylinder seal. You can help people like me, who are not familiar with this type of bead, to learn something.

Some specific questions:
Where did you purchase or acquire it?
What were you told about it?
Where is it supposed to be from?
How old do you think it is?
How big is it?
How big is the hole?

Thanks!



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FAKE! FAKE! FAKE!
Re: fake or true -- alin Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
07/20/2018, 13:12:42

OK, I should not reach conclusions unless I see it in person. So, a scientist should politely say: "I have to see it in person first."

But, buying antique beads is more like gambling. Especially when it comes to rare items on ebay and elsewhere. I am a buyer -not a bead researcher. So, I must gather clues based upon my experience and decide whether or not to buy as quickly as possible, intuitively…Because -especially when it is a rare beautiful bead- it may sell to a competitor quickly.

Based solely on the photo (I do not trust hearsay): There are pits which often appear in cast copies. It is copper. And copper is soft and develops a patina quickly. There is no patina. Therefore, based upon these clues, I would defer to judgement by my intuition: It is a beautiful FAKE!



Modified by Frederick II at Sat, Jul 21, 2018, 00:08:37

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Re: FAKE! FAKE! FAKE!
Re: FAKE! FAKE! FAKE! -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: alin Post Reply
07/21/2018, 00:30:48

thanks a lot.your jugement is reasonable right.do you have any clue when and where was faked this bead?attached are some extra pics



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Re: Re: FAKE! FAKE! FAKE!
Re: Re: FAKE! FAKE! FAKE! -- alin Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: alin Post Reply
07/21/2018, 00:59:55

mmexport1532156507030.jpg (201.9 KB)  mmexport1532157621345.jpg (30.1 KB)  


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you should touch many original ones
Re: Re: Re: FAKE! FAKE! FAKE! -- alin Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: alipersia Post Reply
07/21/2018, 05:32:37

6212018165524.jpg (89.9 KB)  


Modified by alipersia at Sat, Jul 21, 2018, 05:33:37

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Re: you should touch many original ones
Re: you should touch many original ones -- alipersia Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: alin Post Reply
07/21/2018, 09:54:00

yes,naturally old.nice.thx



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If your bead were right it would be worth many thousands of dollars.
Re: fake or true -- alin Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
07/22/2018, 15:59:18

A cylinder seal is cylindrical. Your bead is not cylindrical, it is ovoid.

And, a carver capable of creating a well designed pattern like yours, should provide a proper perforation. The hole in your bead is irregular.



Modified by Frederick II at Sun, Jul 22, 2018, 22:21:40

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Re: If your bead were right it would be worth many thousands of dollars.
Re: If your bead were right it would be worth many thousands of dollars. -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: alin Post Reply
07/23/2018, 02:31:23

thanks.well educated.



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Re: Seals
Re: fake or true -- alin Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
07/23/2018, 20:48:14

I will repeat that I am not an expert on ancient seals. However, here's a link to a past discussion on the topic.

Please note that ancient cylinder seals generally were rotary-cut—this being in-process similar to drilling. Whereas most or at least many modern attempts to make copies of seals rely on wheel-cutting (using the wedged edge of a rotating wheel).

Your bead has been wheel-cut—and consequently does not accurately resemble the decorations on stone seal beads. Nevertheless, the pattern, seen rolled-out, is somewhat impressive.

You say the material is copper. However, what I see looks very much like gold. Is the color not accurate?

Jamey

http://beadcollector.net/cgi-bin/anyboard.cgi?fvp=%2Fopenforum%2F&tK=carnelian+seal+beadman&wT=1&yVz=yTz&aO=1&hIz=5000&hJz=4000&cmd=find&by=&xcfgfs=tK-wT-yVz-aO-hKz


Related link: http://beadcollector.net/cgi-bin/anyboard.cgi?fvp=%2Fopenforum%2F&tK=carnelian+seal+beadman&wT=1&yVz=yTz&aO=1&hIz=5000&hJz=4000&cmd=find&by=&xcfgfs=tK-wT-yVz-aO-hKz

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Re: Re: Seals -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
07/24/2018, 13:35:01



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Re: Re: Seals
Re: Re: Seals -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: alin Post Reply
07/25/2018, 00:18:51

thanks so much!



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You are welcome!
Re: Re: Re: Seals -- alin Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
07/27/2018, 20:40:36



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Gold or not Gold?
Re: Re: Seals -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Karlis Post Reply
07/25/2018, 01:28:59

Looking at the images, there seem to be small pits and craters all over the surface, as well as areas of tarnish. Gold does not tarnish and being relatively soft, any imperfections can be easily remedied. I would guess the material is brass.



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It does look like it may be made from gold. Gold is often used for high class copies.
Re: fake or true -- alin Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
07/24/2018, 08:55:00

I am not an expert on cylinder seals either. But I have had a lot of experience with metal ojime.

In my opinion, it is cast. The original may have been wheel cut. But, this piece has been made from a mold; so, it is not wheel cut.

This is where the scientist should ask to see it in person. We can only make assumptions based upon a photograph alone -which is what we do on BCN.



Modified by Frederick II at Tue, Jul 24, 2018, 14:06:16

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I feel it would be worthwhile for you to have the bead tested for potential gold content.
Re: fake or true -- alin Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
07/25/2018, 03:13:54



Modified by Frederick II at Wed, Jul 25, 2018, 13:15:11

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A specialist in cylinder seals would probably know best.
Re: I feel it would be worthwhile for you to have the bead tested for potential gold content. -- Frederick II Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Frederick II Post Reply
07/25/2018, 13:19:48

The "tarnish" may be surface soil, or treatment to make the bead look old. And, I feel, the color of the bead looks like 9-12K. Small pits and craters occur from casting.

We are each doing the best we can do to speculate based upon our personal areas of expertise. I have specialized in ojime, which are usually the same size and often made of metal, and fabricated or cast. Collectors gain advanced intuition through first hand experience -having invested money. Researchers gain knowledge by investing time. It takes one or the other or both to come closer to the truth.

A true bead researcher must see it in person. Or, at least, see results of a test for metal content. At the same time, Beadcollector.net participants are helping one another by revealing their logic -albeit in the dark.



Modified by Frederick II at Wed, Jul 25, 2018, 14:01:35

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