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Hi,
I have been wondering how one can date and origing on these agate beads.
I read that most of the stone comes from India, but with different designs for different markets.
So how can you tell that yours are from the liao dynasty, for example?
Just been in a museum, and the agate beads from different times and different places seem so similar to me.
Here's some I bought in Iran.

hi,thanks for your reply.i saw many the same style beads in chinese museum,and they were remarked that they were from liao dynasty.so i think the several beads were from liao dynasty too,maybe i have a mistake.:-)

Dear 999,

For over 2000 years, the majority of agate and quartz beads have been made in India, and traded around the (known) world. This is not to say that there was no local hard-stone beadmaking in many places—including, of course, China. But Chinese beads should be distinct to China, and will (usually/generally) not look like beads from other industries. This is because local material differs, techniques differ, and art sense differs.

The beads you are showing look very much like beads from India—and I would guess that that is what they are. Whether they date from between the 10th and 12 centuries (encompassing the Liao dynasty) is anyone's guess, but it would not be my guess. I think this is probably too early for the present beads.

I would call your attention to the form of these beads—that they are faceted or prismatic. In my mind, faceting is a foreign shape, in relation to Chinese preferences. I would like to see any examples of faceted stones from China, also dissimilar from any from India.

If your beads are actually from China and the Liao Dynasty (that is recovered from there and from that time), I would still have to think they are imported from India. But there is every possibility they are just Indian beads that have been misidentified as to time and origin.

Jamey

So now I am curious.....
How do I identify these beads by age or their destination (after being made in India)

I was told that how more complicated the shape, how newer it was. So faceting means it could not be very old. Is this true?
Round ones, ovals, tubes could be prettu old, but diamond shapes, and faceting could not.

Hello Floorkasp,

As I post below, many shapes exist from antiquity, including the longitudinal faceting of fusiform beads (in the region of India). But these are not typical Chinese shapes. The point of faceting a stone is to affect its refraction or reflection of light. A multifaceted stone glints in the light. (The modern brilliant-cut diamond is the greatest achievement of this arena,) As I understand it, the glinting of stones is not an effect that Chinese folks appreciated or desired. They much preferred stones to glow. And the glowing of stones is accomplished through making smooth rounded shapes.

Nevertheless, when I look at the beads in question, in addition to their shapes, I am looking at the material. The carnelian of India is distinct from that of China. Both are distinct from the carnelian of Germany (actually derived from Brazil, after 1881); and from the South American carnelian of pre-Columbian antiquity (for instance).

The beads in question do not look Chinese. But I would not support the generalizations you list. They are over-simplified.

Jamey

Hello Jamey

I got these 2 long faceted crystal beads from Henan Province in China and was told it is from Liao Dynasty.
Any chance that it may be genuine Liao Dynasty or have I been fooled again ?

Sallie

Here are 2 more faceted crystal beads from China from unknown dynasty.
Should this shape be described as flat ?

Any comments about these crystals would be appreciated. Thank you

Sallie

Hello Sallie,

These beads look more like specimens from India or Europe than anything else I can think of.

Nevertheless, back in the early 1980s, when old Chinese beads were beginning to flood the market, I recall I bought a pair of antique faceted bicone SILVER beads from China—that I selected because I thought they were so unusual to be Chinese.

One cannot say this shape is entirely foreign to the Chinese; just as it is reasonable to expect there may be some Indian beads among old Chinese beads recovered in China.

Never say never. (But sometimes say "recently introduced.")

Jamey

Hi
I'd like to add to this discussion some historical perspective.
When talking about the Liao dynasty(916-1125), we are talking about a geographical area in North East China (later known as Manchuria) that was ruled by the Qidan tribal peoples.This area was later ruled by the Jin dynasty (1115-1234) ,the Ruzhen tribal peoples to whom the Manchu,the rulers of the Ching dynasty,were descended.
When describing an item as from Liao dynasty i would expect that it would be found(excavated) in that geographical area.
You described your agate beads as having been found in South West China.During the Liao dynasty South West China ,loosely where Yunnan province is now,would have been its own independant State, the NanZhao, with its capital in Dali.
At this time The Song dynasty,the somewhat battered, and in retreat, remains of the Han people(960-1279) and the Tangut Kingdom of Xixia(1038-1227) also were in power controlling various areas of what we now call China.
Confusing right?
In my experience i have known dealers who name items as from the Liao dynasty but they are trying to "spice " up the origin,the pieces they have might well be from that "time period" but might not be specific the the Qidan peoples.If the item was from a known Liao dynasty burial site it would not be from SW China area ,but there is a possibility,fairly remote i would guess, that an item with characteristics of Liao artistic work could have been traded to other areas.
I would tend to agree with Jamey that India should be focused on as an origin.Yunnan province(if that is the SW China referred to) borders Burma and historically has been active in trade from India/Burma and Tibet.Having said that though much of "China" has also seen such trade,so agate beads and other items of Indian origin are also found in burial sites all over China and from various time periods.I would therefore not rule out seeing items orginating from outside China in Liao(Qidan) specific burials but if your agate beads were indeed excavated in Yunnan province area i would speculate on that evidence alone that they were not connected to the Liao dynasty.
To sum up i'd say we should use knowledge of the history of technology in beadmaking,history of trade patterns and if possible knowledge of the time period and location of the excavated site to get an idea of possible history of the beads in question.
I haven't tried to identify your beads in question because i simple don't know enough but when i hear SW China and Liao dynasty in the same sentence i would be wary.

Peace
Springee

hi
thanks for your reply,you know chinese history very much i admire you!
what you said about chinese history is very correct.
these bead were found in sichuan province next to yunnan,maybe they were really traded to china from india.

Dear Springee,

Thanks. Your summary of Chinese history is not confusing to me.

Unfortunately, my experience makes it very easy for me to be skeptical of stories I am told, or that I read, that do not make much sense in relation to the beads I know about. Not that I know all about Chinese (or East Asian) beads—because I don't. But over the years, since trade with China opened up, I have had a pretty decent exposure to that corpus of ornaments (supplemented by considerable reading, and a friendship with one of the most vigorous Chinese collectors—Dr. Robert Liu).

When I see a "Chinese bead" that looks to me like an Indian bead, I am inclined to suspect that it is actually from India. And further, these days, I am inclined to suspect it may have only recently arrived in China, and may not have any real relation to historical Chinese culture.

Some years ago, a client of mine showed me a long strand of gray banded agate beads, of a type that is considered typical of Ladakh, but that were said to have come from China. My gut told me these beads had just crossed a few borders recently, and were being misrepresented, and sold at what was twice their usual value. I told the client to disregard the story as probably untrue, and to realize that these same beads could be had from Ladakh for about half that price. The doubling of the price is the cost of the story....

Then, a few years ago, a group of people went on a tour to Thailand, and returned with a variety of beads they had acquired at a local market. Most of these beads were from Afghanistan—and at that time Afghan sellers had begun to dominate the markets of Bangkok (and are only now beginning to wane, some five years later). But those folks only knew they were buying "beads from Thailand" that they brought back to the U.S. But this is what the marketplace is like, especially lately.

Be well. Jamey

Hi Jamey and 999 beads
Jamey i agree with you.The term "found" in China is the crucial problem.The artifacts could either have been only bought in China from a dealer/market and be only recently imported/even produced or the artifacts could have been excavated in China with whatever origin is evidenced based on burial time/location/and historical context.
There is solid evidence for both scenarios but unfortunately the former is by far the dominant pattern seen now.Having said that though the term "now" might be somewhat misleading.There are documents in existence in China from the Tang dynasty(618-907) that are essentially catalogues,produced in and/or for the royal court, of fake "burial" items that were being produced in China at that time(more than a thousand years ago) to satisfy the booming antiquities/ancient artifacts market way back then!!
As i said in my previous post i won't speculate about the origin/story of the beads in question in this specific thread.I would simply say that the Liao dynasty/SW China connection is not something i would be happy about and i agree that the origin of the beads points to the Indian tradition of agate bead production.When or how they came to China is not in immediate evidence.I am aware of the suspicion that we both share concerning current market conditions but based on the evidence given that is all i could say without speculating,which i know is something that you don't like to do,right? ;)
Perhaps Jamey if we can ,between my ambient ramblings and your knowledge of bead history,give 999beads an idea from your side at least,when such agate beads with such faceting could have been produced in India.This i am sure would give at least an initial solid foundation of scientific knowledge from you that 999beads can pick up on in his interest and hopefully further study.

Peace
Springee

dear Jamey,
thanks for your so detailed explaintion,in china i find very poor recordation about the old beads,and i was very happy to find this site,i think i can learn much about all kinds of beads here .
btw ,beads in the pics were really found in china .

Hi Jamey
I just edited my previous post by adding the following.......

Perhaps Jamey if we can ,between my ambient ramblings and your knowledge of bead history,give 999beads an idea from your side at least,when such agate beads with such faceting could have been produced in India.This i am sure would give at least an initial solid foundation of scientific knowledge from you that 999beads can pick up on in his interest and hopefully further study.

Peace
Springee

Hi Springee,

Ok, but this is much easier to ask than to answer.

Longitudinally faceted fusiform carnelian beads can be found as far back as the Indus Valley (present day Pakistan, but culturally India). Faceting, and/or making prismatic beads is of a very long tradition in this region. But, as I mention, not typical of China. (I would like to show some exceptional beads, if I can put my hands on them.)

Nevertheless, the beads in question from China do not really look like very early ancient beads. To my eye, they look rather modern. But whether they would be 100 years old or 500 years old might be just a guess.

The bottom line for me is that I would tend to exclude them from a Chinese tradition, regardless of their real age.

Jamey

Hi Jamey
Thanks for your reply.I appreciate the difficulty in determining dates for such items.When you say "I would tend to exclude them from a Chinese tradition" are you talking about a tradition of working raw carnelian into a product or a tradition of importing/incorporating the already worked beads into a cultural situation?

Peace
Springee

Hi again,

I am talking about the manufacture of beads. Anyone, given the desire and the appropriate connections, can import anything from anywhere. We all know beads travel, and often very far from their place of manufacture. Once in a new location, they are either appreciated, or not. Some people like the exotic. Others are grounded in local ideas of beauty and desirability. Some beads catch on and become fads. In the instance where an imported bead becomes popular enough, for a long enough time, it comes to be seen as a "local" bead, and owners may not realize it was imported at all.

JDA.

Thanks all for a fascinating discussion.

Don't know if this will be of interest to more informed minds, but in the forum gallery I found this photo of some pema raka with a few faceted beads that look very much like the ones under discussion - with some backlighting, they might be identical?

Link: http://collectiblebeads.com/galleries/08/pages/Pemma-Rocca.htm

There seems to be a connection with China as the center of pema reka manufacture and trade, but I'm not venturing to say what that might be.

Hi Tantalus,

It has been my expressed opinion that pema raka beads were made in China, from a distinct material (that I suspect may have been mined or acquired in Chinese Turkistan, or environs), and made by them for the Tibetan market. I have posted this innumerable times here and on the Net.

Also, in the late 1980s or early 1990s, NEW pema raka beads became available, made from more-or-less the same material (and presumably source), though tending to be less opaque and more translucent, and with a greater incidence of structural patterning. Also, the perforations are different in the reproduction beads.

I agree that some of the beads in the photo you reposted look like they might be Indian, based on shapes that are typical of India and atypical of pema raka beads.

Jamey

Hi Jamie,

It was your viewpoint I was going by. Possible, do you think, that having cornered the Tibetan market, so to speak, Chinese traders bought in carnelian from elsewhere - India in this case - to satisfy demand, and in the process some of that stock ended up in contemporary tombs? This is historical tail-chasing, of course, but compelling as well...

Cheers,

Pip

Hi Pip,

It would be hard to know if Chinese traders brought stone beads from India to China; or if Indian traders brought them in; or if the beads just migrated—by the process of changing hands between people who lived close together in a chain that went from India to China. Trade can be a local situation, in which movement is slow, and the better beads often don't travel as far as the less-good beads. Or it can be facilitated by a trader who travels great distances, meeting people at favored centers, who have also come from a great distance. Import/export entrepots have been great facilitators of trade between people who are far apart.

I have remarked a number of times, the origin of the Silk Route ( or "Road") was based on the exchange of goods between the Persian and Chinese empires. This happened at a time when there was very little formal trade between sellers and receivers, but rather represented the exchange of goods between rulers and the elite. But eventually, caravans formed, great quantities of goods were moved around, and many people—including ordinary or not-high-class people—benefitted.

Around 500 BCE, glass beads from the Mediterranean, including the popular and often seen Phoenician (or "Phoenician style") stratified eye beads, were sent as far away as China—and they are now recovered from Chinese excavations. (I am a primary proponent of the idea that this trade, and exposure to these beads, instigated the making of Warring States Period glass beads in China. I think the beads themselves support this idea.)

So yes, I do think foreign beads would have occasionally or often found their way to contemporary Chinese graves—to be recovered later.

Unfortunately, I also think that many newly moved old beads wind up in China, and are falsely claimed to have been recovered there from archaeologically significant or just ancient sites (when they were not).

Jamey

I have met many chinese from Yunnan who came to buy especially amber and decorated carnelian beads (new and old) & etc from Burma nowadays.

Best regards.

Hi Jamey

They came by group of 2 to 3 persons from Yunnan (Dali) and met them in Burma since early 2007. They comes every 2 or 3 weeks.

According to them they came to source and buy these beads in Burma since 2006.

Best regards

very interesting,we chinese call these linked beads "nanhong".i donnt know how to say "pemma" in chinese,and anybody would tell me what "pemma" means?
here are my "nanhong" bracelet,and some other "nanhong" beads.

more...

Hello 999,

What makes these beads "linked"?

The online Tibetan dictionary has no entry for "pemma." I have always spelled this word "pema." I don't know the possible variable meanings of the word, but I know it is a common female name in Tibet.

I was first told the name "pema raka" by my good friend Judith Carlsson, who at that time was a bead seller based in Washington, DC. The spelling was not discussed in this verbal exchange. I have always spelled it as I present it based on phonetics. I don't know of any literature that discusses these beads with this name. I do have a reference to carnelian beads from Tibet, having (as part of their name) "han"—taken to indicate the beads were thought to be Chinese.

Because the Chinese have made MANY ornaments from this particular stone (that is, this variety of red agate, and closely related variations), I would not call everything made from this a "pema raka." The pema raka beads are those that were made for the Tibetan market. They are typically, large "nugget" shapes, smaller melon beads, thick disks, and short oblates. If there are other shapes in the greater Tibetan cultural region, I don't think of them at the moment.

Your beads appear to be rather new—so I would have to suspect they are reproduction pema raka beads.

Jamey

Hi again
The popular girls name in Tibet "Pema" is,i think, a word meaning lotus.If someone can show me the words "Pema raka" written in Tibetan script i can translate it but written in English its hard to know.......but i wouldn't be surprised if it also includes "Lotus".
As many of you will probably know the Buddhist mantra "Om mani Padme Hum" from the sakskrit/Indian side, the most common Tibetan variant being roughly "Om mani Peme Hung".I can't accurately translate that but the Lotus is central.
The popular Padmasambhava ,also known as Guru Rinpoche,is credited as bringing and being able to establish Buddhism firmly in Tibet in the 8th Century.His name means "Born of the Lotus" and we can see that root Padma in his name.In Chinese he is known as "Lin Fa Sang Dai Si"(cantonese spelling) again meaning Born of the Lotus.Anyone interested in reading more about Padmasambhava would be rewarded with,how to say,........you won't be disappointed! ;)
Not strictly bead knowledge here but it does help to show the interest in all things connected to Buddhism/Himlaya/Lotus ,and consequently related beads, by many peoples in asia especially China at varying intensities over the years(the many years that they are!).Some of the Buddhist cave paintings from DunHuang in China show some fascinating strings of beads adorning the Buddhas and Boddhisatvas,and these paintings are thought to be from around the late han dynasty(or probably a bit later......c.300AD)
Hi 999beads when you say "Nan Hong" what does this translate to in English?I always think writing Chinese language in English letters doesn't show the full meaning,only the nearby sound of the words....I am sure many of the forum members will be interested to know.Thanks to you 999beads,Jamey and all who have been contributing in this topic.

Peace
Springee

This is the usual translation—though. no doubt, it leaves something intangible unincluded.

Cheers, Jamey

hi Springee,i am very pleasure to say something i know about nanhong ¡£in chinese, "nanhong" is two chinese words,"nan" is south,"hong" is red."nanhong" means "the red come from the south". chinese people think that the origin place of the red stone is in south china.so we call these beads "nanhong".
hope you can understand my poor english,hehe!

I recall the last time you stated that carnelian beads were called "Han".

I said I thought that it was BS at the time.

You called me all sorts of names for that one!

That was really funny!!!

You also said you would post your source???

(I recall you said it was an old National Geo?)

If there is any relevance to that name I'd like to know. Seriously.

Still waiting...........

Dear Mr. Brundage,

Your memory is quite faulty. I do not believe I called you any names—but I recall your bad manners quite well.

I also remember very well that I mentioned a written source for the admonition I have repeated here—that the Tibetan name for these beads included "han." Since the first time I reported that, I have not come across the paper in my archive. But when I do I will quote it. And if you like I will scan that page and send it to you, since it's clear you think I am a liar.

I think the work in question was published by the Smithsonian. However, it could also be from the Newark Museum. (Both institutions, at that time, published similar publications, based on their fieldwork and their holdings.) I did not mention National Geographic—and this is not a publication I refer to much. I would only cite it if I had no other information to go on. The report I referred to is an anthropological museum work, though not a thorough analysis of Tibetan material culture.

Jamey D. Allen

Your funny Jamey......

No, of course I don't think your a liar!

Sorry. Sometimes at our elevated ages we make mistakes or say things we don't mean. At least I do?

It seems unlikely but what do I know? I am humbly striving to be open to learn. I am just overwhelmed by your vast knowledge of everything.

Good luck with your research.

If you run across the quote please let us know.

thank you Jamey ,after reading your reply, i know much more about those red stone . thanks
hehe, my english is poor,when i want to say "beads in the Link Tantalus show us ",i dont know how to express,so i said "linked beads" ,.......

Like 999beads I also bought this long faceted carnelian bead from Sichuan Province. I was not told of its origin but I thot it came from Tibet.

Sallie

This shape sure reminds me of the ones made in Idar-Oberstein for trade to Africa. The Idar ones surely were made to imitate much earlier beads.

Hi Sallie,

Your bead looks like an Indian carnelian (regardless of where it may have recently come from).

The similarly-shaped beads from Idar-Oberstein are more regular. Being newer, they are often in much better condition than older Indian beads, and have sharp edges. The folks at Idar-Oberstein made these beads to copy Indian beads, and to compete in the marketplace where the Indian beads were distributed and admired. The material of the German beads, being from Brazil, is quite different. But that can be hard to determine from a photo of a single bead. Among all similarly-shaped carnelian beads from Germany and India, some would look alike, but a LOT would be different. Among the different beads, the Brazilian material would not be confused with agate from Western India (and vice versa). The Brazilian material is more translucent, can tend to be yellow or yellowish, and is often regularly banded. The Indian material tends to have a fatty translucency, and to be orange, and is quite often unbanded. Of course, there are many exceptions—and these are generalizations.

Jamey

Thank you Jamey. How about the faceted crystal beads posted higher up. Any comments or opinions on those ?

Sallie

Thank you beadman, thank you springee.

In the year 2000, the Chinese government in cooperation with the Canadian Foundation for the Preservation of Chinese Cultural and Historical Treasures organized an exhibit of Chinese jade which traveled throughout Canada for a period of three years.

On exhibit from a regional museum in Shaanxi Province, was a Western Zhou (11thc -771 BCE) pendant set - one of the only known sets whose configuration was substantially intact when unearthed, therefore providing "an invaluable piece of evidence for the study of . . . ornaments worn by nobles of the Zhou dynasty."

Several agate elements - some faceted- can (barely) be seen in this jade pendant set. I apologize for the quality of the photo.

From, Jade, the Ultimate Treasure of Ancient China pp.5, 95

In another recently published catalog of an exhibit, The Language of Adornment, Filippo Salviati comments on two Western Zhou necklaces composed entirely of asymmetrically arranged agate beads. The entry is directly relevant to this thread:

"Virtually all shapes are used for the agate and carnelian beads which compose these two Western Zhou necklaces: tubular, round, oval, faceted, prismatic and elliptical. . . . . . composite pendants, pectorals and necklaces discovered in Western Zhou tombs of the 8th and 9th century BC often display the same disparities and random arrangement.

". . . the Western Zhou fashion of wearing ornaments made of varied beads probably came from outside China. In all likelihood, many of the beads were not worked locally but imported: the use of carnelian, an artificial type of agate, as well as the shapes, point to foreign sources. . . . .

"While no technical studies have yet been conducted on excavated Western
Zhou carnelian beads, an Indian origin is the most likely hypothesis."

I would never call these items "necklaces". They look like "strands" to me. Just an opinion: these people collected beads, treasured them, had some of them strung for convenience and always at hand. Then were buried with their collection of favourite beads.

I take your point. They are called necklaces in the catalog, but unless
they were actually found around the neck - and even then, you might say -
they could be strands of precious beads to be treasured or used in other
ways.

-roughly contemporaneous to Western Zhou-

A number of elaborate necklaces composed of carnelian beads and agate
pendants can be seen in Chad Harrington's Early Chinese Stone and Circular Art pp 183-190. Many spectacular faceted beads can be found in two of the necklaces. He attributes these to the Dong Son (the Dong Son cultural sphere extending into what is now Southwestern China), and dates the necklaces to 1000 - 700 BCE

Terry

but this is not what we had already assumed in previous posts of this same thread!

I think you are a dangerous new member!