Post Message Search Overview RegisterLoginAdmin
response to: Jamey + Amber + Amber-Imitations
Post Reply Edit View All Forum
Posted by: Vara Nares Post Reply
12/18/2006, 17:11:22

quote Jamey: " Most modern imitations of amber are made from thermosetting phenolic plastic that was developed in 1926 (in the US). Beads of this material, from any context, must postdate this year. The thermolabile or thermoplastic beads are harder to date, because this TYPE of material is older. However, most of the beads we see are most likely 20th C. products.
I would estimate that thermosetting (phenolic) plastic imitations outnumber thermoplastic imitations by at least three or four to one. That is conservatively speaking. The phenolic percentage may be (or may have been) even higher.

Nevertheless, I am writing about the beads I have documented since 1972, that were presumed to be (and most likely were) "older" plastic imitations of amber from Africa. In recent years (in the past ten years particularly), amber fakes have been coming out of China, that clearly were intended to copy older African fakes—and many of these are thermoplastics. So the statistics are now different from what they were in the recent past. I can't estimate how much new Chinese plastic has been taken to Africa, and insinuated into the beads of local people. It may be a considerable quantity." end-quote

================================================

Hello Jamey,

if you agree that "thermosetting phenolic plastic" is what I call "Phenolic Resin", I have to disagree - just for the record - with the date, you´ve given in your post. According to my information this material has been invented only in 1928 (Catalin Corporation, USA), not 1926. Could you check on that?

There is no question about most plastic beads, sold to imitate real amber, are 20th century products in most cases.

France, but mostly Germany has been a very active producer of fake amber, starting big-time production as early as 1918/19, right after WW-1, exporting raw materials (rods in various lengths, widths, colors under varying "trade names - also big, kilo-heavy pieces in square and rectangular shape) as far as India, Russia and America, to name a few. Several big and many small factories, spread all over Germany, were not only permanentally experimenting with new materials, but also production technics and machinery for higher output and better-looking materials. Not only beads, many-many other items of daily use have been manufacured!

Reichskanzler Adolf Hitler himself signed a law in 1934, to protect natural amber (Succinit) against "amber-products" (Reichsgesetzblatt Nr. 48 vom 4. Mai 1934, S. 355). If this is of personal interest to you, I can send or post the complete text (5 rather short paragraphs).

Already since the middle of the 19th century "plastics" had been in strong competition to real amber (and other biogene materials, like ivory, horn, gagat and schildpatt). To such a degree this "plastics" were competing (Loebner, 1934), that Hitler finally issued the new law - to protect the German BERNSTEIN PRODUCERS - I was quoting above. Only natural amber and "pressed amber" were now allowed to be called "Bernstein", the German word for amber. Phenolic resins, artificial horns and all other materials resembling real amber, were no longer allowed to use the word "Bernstein" (amber) in the product description. The "Amber Manufactorer of Königsberg (Kaliningrad) was using a little red-golden sticker reading: "Echt Bernstein" (real amber) since 1934.

I assume the difference between natural amber (Succinit) and pressed amber (smaller pieces of Succinit pressed together, to get one bigger piece), and how to detect them, are no longer a secret in this forum, with you guiding and teaching readers for quite a while.

Instead I would like to quote from "Plonait" (1926) and "Fraquet" (1987) both of whom did a great job listing early and more recent materials used to function as amber imitations:

Early materials:
1) Cellulosenitrat -oldest plastic used in bigger amounts - Patent 1855
trade-names: "Parkensin", "Celluloid" (used as ivory, horn or
schildpatt)

2.) Acetyl Cellusose (or "security celluloid") - 1894 - Patent 1920
(USA)

3.) Casein plastics - 1890/1897 (?) - invented in Germany
trade name: "Galalith" (Gala=milk + lithos=stone in Greek) being a
very popular amber imitation, especially in Germany and
continental Europe in the 20´s

"Erinoid" in England

4.) Phenol-Formaldehyd-Resin
trade names: "Bakelite" - Patent: Leo Baekeland, USA - 1907

5.) Phenol(ic)-Resins - Catalin Corp. - 1928

6.) Urea-Formaldehyde - very popular for amber-imitats and beyond,
very health damaging - 1928

Recent materials:
1.) Polystyrene - ca. 1935

2.) Polymethylmethacrylat (PMMA)
trade names: Plexiglass, Perspex, Diakon - time ?

3.) Slocum imitation amber (Acrylic Resin) - Slocum Labs, Michigan -
time?

4.) Polyester - Berzilius AG, Germany - first attemps in
1847/production ca. 1940

5.) Bernat/Bernit (Polyester-Resin) - Wilhelm Co., Germany - time ?

6.) Epoxy Resin - Rozhdesterniskii (USSR) - 1957

7.) Natural Resins (Copal)

If you want to know more, especially about chemical details, but much more than only this, let me know!

I guess this is enough for now!

VARA!



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Oh, dear ... here we go again.
Re: response to: Jamey + Amber + Amber-Imitations -- Vara Nares Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Austin Cooper Post Reply
12/18/2006, 19:52:04



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Go again.
Re: Oh, dear ... here we go again. -- Austin Cooper Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Vara Nares Post Reply
12/19/2006, 15:20:36

Cooper-Austin,
could you maybe elaborate on this? Despite you status of the "one-sentence-person" on this site, I would like to know who "oh dear" is (meant with) and what "here we go again" relates to.
I would like you to tell me, what is hidden behind your cryptic, nevertheless simple thought and statement. Go ahead, try to master more than your obligatory one-sentence-statement and be "brave" so say clearly what ou REALLY mean.

Can you...?
VARA!



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Don't you have some unfinished business with some bead dealers in Africa?
Re: Go again. -- Vara Nares Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Austin Cooper Post Reply
12/20/2006, 16:19:37



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Austin... how are the dogs? ;)
Re: Oh, dear ... here we go again. -- Austin Cooper Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Logan Post Reply
12/19/2006, 15:34:09



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
They are all doing great - frisky with this cold weather.
Re: Austin... how are the dogs? ;) -- Logan Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Austin Cooper Post Reply
12/20/2006, 16:02:24



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Re: Thank you and more
Re: response to: Jamey + Amber + Amber-Imitations -- Vara Nares Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: nishedha Post Reply
12/19/2006, 02:33:38

Thank you for such detailed post. Wouldn't it be possible to go further and teach us to discriminate between all these different materials when handling a bead in real life?



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Re: Amber + Amber Imitations
Re: response to: Jamey + Amber + Amber-Imitations -- Vara Nares Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
12/19/2006, 03:11:12

Hello Jürgen,

I have studied all of this very carefully.

Here are some replies, in the order you discuss them:

In the past (well over twenty years ago) I also read that cast phenolic plastics were developed in 1928. However, in 1986, I met Catherine Yronwood—a local plastics collector who organized a group here in Sonoma County—who had pursued research at the NY Public Library on the history of this material. From the Professional Trade Journals of the Plastic Industry, she SHOWED ME her copies of the promotional materials that were produced by manufacturers (in NY), that publicized the release of this plastic in 1926. I don't think I have to look further than this.

In the early 1980s, I had an argument with a friend of mine, who said her grandmother had bought a strand of phenolic plastic beads (imitating "cherry amber") in 1926. At that time, I told her she probably had the date wrong, and that it couldn't be before 1928. I later had to EAT those words....

It is my strong impression that the fake amber sold in Africa has largely been German material SOLD through French middlemen. Though the French make or made plastics, I don't associate much of a Phenolic industry with that country. (Their imitations were mostly thermoplastics, used for imitating ivory--for instance.) Let's not confuse salesmen with manufacturers. The entry into Africa for this European plastic has mainly been through Morocco and Egypt, for most of the previous century.

The Patents for Celluloid date to 1868 and 1869 (a year apart in the US and England--where the material was called, respectively, "cellulose nitrate," and "nitro-cellulose." Your dates are much too early.

I am not familiar with the work of Plonait (1926). However, I have read Fraquet—and my opinion is that there are quite a few mistakes in this book.

I would have to disagree with you about "bernat/bernit."

Why the long monologue? My post was about a very simple and easy-to-answer question. I moderate a Group, to discuss these issues in detail. I don't see much need to do it here.

Jamey



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
more quotes. Jamey again!
Re: Re: Amber + Amber Imitations -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Vara Nares Post Reply
12/20/2006, 18:31:48

quote Jamey:
Why the long monologue? My post was about a very simple and easy-to-answer question. I moderate a Group, to discuss these issues in detail. I don't see much need to do it here.


Hello Jamey,
sorry, you ask why I decided to post in a somewhat "longer" (too long for you?)fashion? You´re kidding me!!! Are you saying "your short questions" - which one, I didn´t answer to a question! - deserve nothing but a short answer? You, being the very person having problems with (my) easy-to-answer questions, yourself (as I´ve proven in my previous post) demand I´d be better shorter in what I have to say? Like that...?

I don´t know of an amber-group you are moderating. Where? What are the rules of participation? Am I welcome?

B.E NARES!



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Huh? Are you welcome? No. It requiress a civility you don't own.
Re: more quotes. Jamey again! -- Vara Nares Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
12/20/2006, 18:57:15



Copyright 2024
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users


Forum     Back