Your stone reminds me of similar stones found on local beaches here in Norfolk, UK:

these are rounded pebbles with natural, often centrally placed holes. According to mythology they were considered powerful magic and to ward off evil spirits. In European beliefs, the hag stone keeps the 'evil hag' spirit away and prevents it from stealing horses and children. It was also used as a talisman to ward off the evil eye. Some people kept a hag stone in their bedrooms to prevent the succubus-hag from riding on people's chests during nightmares. In Italian witchcraft, the holed stone is associated with fairies, and often referred to as 'the holy stone'.

In Norfolk, UK, it was thought that hags or witches would take horses from stables and ride them throughout the night until they were tired out. A tired horse was, of course, not much use for working the fields with. In order to prevent witches from "borrowing" their horses, farmers would tie a flint pebble with a hole in it - a hag stone - to their stable doors.

Image below depicts locally found stones, one is a so-called witch stone, or witch bead, if you may; the stone at left is similar to yours in that it too has a central circular depression?

Cheers,
Evelyn

Last week when we had the conversation about fossil urchins, I came across this essay (URL below). Hag stones are mentioned toward the bottom. The examples shown do not look much like they have "natural perforations"—though it would not surprise that some or many might. (I collect "natural beads" that do not require added perforation.) I would guess that others are just gnarly old beads.

I think I also found the essay you quote about hag stones—as it was the first thing that came up in a Google search. I have to take exception to one comment I read there and in your post. Objects such as hag stones are (or become) amulets. They are NOT "talismans." Almost anything can be an amulet or can be put to amuletic use; and an amulet is usually a single thing. Many, many beads are amulets. (some might say they are ALL amulets.) Amulets are most often worn on the body, but they can also protect an object (a car or even a room). In contrast, a talisman is a made thing (made by a talisman-maker), and is made for a specific person and a specific function. It is a certain kind of amulet, in a broad sense. And, a talisman is often or usually made from more than one part, may or may not be worn on the body, and often includes a magical written text. The words "amulet" and "talisman" are NOT interchangeable, though in the literature you'd hardly appreciate this fact. The word "talisman" is used many more times than is "amulet" (particularly where it's the incorrect word)—and one gets the feeling that people like this word MUCH MORE than the word "amulet."

Jamey

Amulets - An object worn, especially around the neck, as a charm against evil or injury.

Talisman - a trinket or piece of jewelry thought to be a protection against evil

Once I got the one (22 x 24 mm.)pictured below in a strand with other "Mali stone" beads. Good sized, nice, but not special...or is she?

The hole in her side opens to a perfect geode (a chamber with its walls all covered by tiny quartz crystals): not just a bead, a diminutive TEMPLE!

This bead also displays a small crystal cavity. This also came from the same trade as the bead above.

It measures 43.52 mm x 31.23 mm. It has a large perforation width of 6mm.

I know you love your agates : ) This is a big piece that measures 53.05 mm x 33.89 mm. I purchased this bead from a friend last year and he picked it up from a trader who sells things from the middle east (I think). I have no idea of the origin of this bead or the age.

I cannot agree with you here. As I mentioned earlier, I believe the primary difference is that amulets are general sorts of charms; whereas a talisman is made for the person who is using it, and for a specific thing (or things) for it to do.

You can get an amulet at Ye Olde Amulet Shoppe.

For a talisman, you have to go to "Gerty the old talisman-maker," or the personage of your choice.

It is possible I have become sensitized to the use of "talisman," in terms of frequency. However, my experience is that it's used much more often than "amulet." "Talisman" is certainly used where "amulet" would be more correct.

Jamey

Thanks for sharing your understanding on this : )

You said:

"I think in Anthropology and Jewellery circles you will find the understanding is that Amulets magically protect or repel, Talismans are meant to attract, and they are both Charms"

What if a bead is meant to do both of these things? In the case of dZi, we can see that they are meant to 'repel' negativity and protect the wearer but they are also meant to bestow or 'attract' spiritual blessings, healing, wealth etc. I have found it very difficult to make a distinction between a Talisman and an Amulet in terms of these beads. I have always used the word talisman and amulet as one and the same thing and when we look these words up in a dictionary we can see there is little or no difference. I want to use the correct term and if it is amulet then so be it. Thanks : )

All the best,

James

Actually, the quote you present is a statement made by Stefany. She can ably defend or amplify her point of view. I don't (or would not) say it's wrong.

However, my opinion is somewhat different. Since zi beads are largely found by Tibetans, or are acquired as ancient beads (not made for them). I would have to classify zi beads as amulets. They serve a general function, and/or have a list of attributes..., but they were not made for their owners to serve specific functions.

I think there ARE certain beads in Tibet that were made for specific functions, for the person who receives and uses them. These, I would say, are talismanic. I have documented one such bead from a private collection in the Eastern US.

Cheers, Jamey

Before I start let me say:

"I come in Peace!"...........

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"Amulets magically protect or repel, Talismans are meant to attract" (ST)

As I watched "World on a String" last night I noticed in the intro the narrator said (quote): "Talisman for protection" in reference to the way beads are used.

So.... either he is wrong or someone needs to expand the meaning if it must only be one way or the other?

.....But what about the basic natural law of 'equal and opposite' in that perhaps these things happen in concert?

"I believe the primary difference is that amulets are general sorts of charms; whereas a talisman is made for the person who is using it, and for a specific thing (or things) for it to do." (BM)

When you say you 'believe' is that a personal belief structure or fact that compels the argument that everyone should use one definition of these words? You go on to say in a follow up that this is your 'opinion' which is not as dogmatic an interpretation and somewhat neutralizes this argument.

I am not picking on you Jamey, (mostly I pick my nose & scratch my butt) but I am wondering to who and why does it matter if my amulet is also a talisman? If I call it the wrong word maybe it is usless and will not work!

You have argued before about the meaning of certain words when (for example) dictionaries in reality are sometimes inadequate in some (or many) references. Protracted dialogues about words can sometimes leave things more confused than settled.

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I will admit some of these semantic arguments give me a headache. ;-}

"I can also see with how these really could actually be interchangeable" (Carl)

"I have found it very difficult to make a distinction between a Talisman and an Amulet in terms of these beads." (Garuda)

I am inclined to agree with the above sentiment and think (my opinion) the in this case the idea is more important than the word.

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< - YOU HAVE MY PERMISSION TO CALL IT WHATEVER YOU LIKE. - >

(thanks for indulging me & good luck - now back to drywall....)

Harry Primate

Sorry if I sounded harsh in my post -

I am emotionally involved in whoreld events and especially Nepal at the moment and sometimes these issues seem to be so "Much ado about nothing" while I do realize they are important to many. So please forgive my impertinent tone.

I do respect you and others opinions a lot so do not take my tirades too personally.

All the best everyone // bb

Just between you & me (and the world). I DO NOT enjoy having to apologize for so many of my posts. However it is my desire is be a peacemaker and when I read some of my posts I sound like an angry guy with a chip on shoulder. I don't want to be a jerk but it does sometimes come off that way. I don't mean to offend anyone but it is not as easy as it should be somehow? It can be hard work for a fundamentally lazy guy.......

So many people who post here are much, much more knowledgeable than I am about most things bead related. Particularly glass beads. I have my own personal observations although sometimes they are hard to express without inciting a riot or going to page two unnoticed.

Kay Garne (what to do)?

Often it comes to this: "To post or not to post - that is the question?"

As everyone knows it can be very time consuming to compose and edit a post and as an expert at procrastination I avoid other things I need to do while another day goes by bound to a computer.

Anybody besides me ever feel this way???

Best wishes and I will try to post about BEADS someday soon???

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For now try this fabulous & extensive site about the Indus Valley with excellent research by Mr. Mark Kenoyer which I highly recommend if you have any interest in this area:

These are all examples of Tibetan silver work. They are principally decorative elements that are sewn on leather or fabric much like the Native American 'concho'. Probably from belts, pouches or heirloom headdresses. Examples of repousse Ag & brass with turquoise, coral and a couple are glass or plastic simulations. Lower right is a Ag Chinese coin with a coral set.

Some are indeed have used as hair ornaments so you wouldn't be wrong.

They are traditional, not tourist fodder & sure tempted me!!!

I love reading and looking at everyone's posts here. I am more of an observer/student than a participant, as I am pitifully lazy about learning our (new) digital camera (we had to buy one as our art major college student plans a semester in Florence this fall, lucky young woman!). So, I just say, "ooh" and "aah" and ask a question here and there. With our hundreds of readers and posters, it's okay to just be an observer, right?

What I'm trying to say is: if everyone felt unsure about posting before they did, nobody would, and the forum would be one huge bore. I miss Steve's beadscapes, but I'm enjoying Charles' humor-laden, beautiful bead posts. As I've said before, this forum is a haven and good company for my morning cup of java.

I never, ever pass up a post of yours, Bob... and when I see "img" next to it, I am more eager to click on the link to get me there. I have a co-worker/friend traveling (again) to Tibet this summer, and I've tried to get him to write to you to inquire about beads and/or stones/jewelry. His name is also Bob. It's a small world when you pull folks together, as this forum does.

Thanks, again, to Joyce and David.