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Millefiore
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Posted by: gabriel Post Reply
04/12/2006, 02:25:30

I have just purchased this bead which seems to me to be uncommon.

Gabriel

DSC08174.JPG (39.1 KB)  


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What was its context? It looks like a bead that imitates a Venetian type.
Re: Millefiore -- gabriel Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
04/12/2006, 02:34:22



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Re: What was its context? It looks like a bead that imitates a Venetian type.
Re: What was its context? It looks like a bead that imitates a Venetian type. -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: gabriel Post Reply
04/12/2006, 02:48:12

Hello Jamey,

I is a lose bead. I bought it in Mauritania from one of my usual dealers which told me that it is Venetian. I would like to check that.

Thank you,

Gabriel



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Re: Your Bead
Re: Re: What was its context? It looks like a bead that imitates a Venetian type. -- gabriel Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
04/12/2006, 02:56:42

Hello Gabriel,

Thanks for your reply. I am surprised that this bead would come out of West Africa (or North Africa, if you prefer).

It would be very helpful to see the bead from several angles, and to have an idea of its size.

My first impression (that I really didn't want to post presumptuously) is that this may be a new bead from India, made to look something like some Venetian beads.

A more clear view of the perforation (apertures) and of the cane decorations would most likely provide needed information about the origin. Also, the size and shape of the perforation, and the presence or absence of a separating compound is helpful to ascribe a likely origin.

Jamey



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Re: Your Bead
Re: Re: Your Bead -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: gabriel Post Reply
04/12/2006, 03:01:26

Hello Jamey,

Thank you for your answer. I will take different (and better) photograhs of the bead and will post them tomorrow.

Gabriel



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Re: Millefiore -not made in India
Re: Millefiore -- gabriel Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Stefany Post Reply
04/12/2006, 03:49:55

This bead is not Indian.
In my opinion its made with Venetian Millefiori cane slices and has a large hole but no visible black hole deposit which also says Venetian, and the delicate rather than strident colours all suggesting Venetian make.
However similar canes are occasionally used on recent Indonesian beads, but then... its not an Indonesian shape...?
Stefany



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Re: Millefiore -not made in India
Re: Re: Millefiore -not made in India -- Stefany Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: gabriel Post Reply
04/12/2006, 04:21:48

Thank you Stefany. As mentionned in my answer to Jamey I will post other pictures tomorrow. Dimensions are 22x16x10 mm. There is black hole deposit suggesting that the bead is old.

Gabriel



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Re: Millefiore -not made in India
Re: Re: Millefiore -not made in India -- gabriel Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: jerri Post Reply
04/12/2006, 05:56:11

Hi Gabriel, I cannot help you with your bead ID as I am not a bead person but I am very curious as to the black hole statement and age. Is the black hole something that pertains to this type of bead only or would it pertain to all old beads. I am not sure what you mean as I am not a bead person. thanks, Jerri



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Re: Millefiore -not made in India
Re: Re: Millefiore -not made in India -- jerri Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: jerri Post Reply
04/12/2006, 07:42:47

the light icy blue faceted bead I have has what I would describe as Bead Acne....it looks like a small pit or hole with was appears to have gotten dirt/grit in it. Maybe this is what you are referring to?



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Re: Millefiore -not made in India
Re: Re: Millefiore -not made in India -- jerri Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: gabriel Post Reply
04/12/2006, 09:10:45

Old beads may or may not have black or brown holes as result of wear, but, generaly, when a bead have a black or brown hole it is probably and old bead.

Gabriel



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Invalid Generalization !
Re: Re: Millefiore -not made in India -- gabriel Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
04/12/2006, 15:41:48

Dear Gabriel,

Your generalization is not based on fact, and actually is wholly untrue. What you are discussing is not an issue of age, but rather of manufacture.

Taking the topic of wound beadmaking, there are two primary types: 1) those made at a furnace; and 2) those made at a lamp or torch.

From antiquity through present times, a furnace-wound bead was and is typically made on an iron mandrel—often a large-diameter mandrel. The iron leaves behind a black fire-scale, when the bead is knocked-off of it. This black fire-scale with be in an ancient bead as well as a new bead made in the same manner. So, a black perforation deposit is NOT an indication of antiquity. It is true that in the past, before lampworking was developed, most wound beads were made at a furnace, and we should expect these beads to have black deposits in their perforations (unless this were removed). When furnace-wound beads are made in certain industries (such as China in the 19th C.), the makers may take the approach of using a mandrel-release compound (as explained below)—so not all furnace-wound beads were made on iron mandrels, and therefore will not have a black deposit.

When wound beads are made at a lamp or torch (the "lamp" was developed at Venice several 100s of years ago; whereas the torch is used by current beadmakers), it is typical for the workers to use a separating compound (sometimes called "mandrel release" or "bead release") that allows the bead to be cooled on the mandrel, and removed later, after annealing. At Venice, in the late 19th or early 20th C. they introduced the new approach of forgoing mandrel release, cooling and annealing the bead on the "wire" used, and dissolving the "wire" with acid. Consequently, modern Venetian beads typically have very small perforations, and no deposit in them (from a mandrel release).

Earlier Venetian beads tend to have larger perforations, and no deposit within them. How these beads were removed from their mandrels has not been explained, but the typical appearance is of a smooth-sided shaft. It is also typically straight-sided, and not tapered (as are many ancient beads).

Anyway, there are quite a few variables that must be juggled and dealt with. About fifteen or twenty years ago, Elizabeth Harris made an analysis of the characteristics of perforations from different industries that made wound beads around the world. Peter Francis did a similar survey. I recall that they did not entirely agree, about details such as "colors of release compound" and such.

The point is, the situation is much too complicated to be handled by the simple generalization you offered. What you wrote mainly pertains to type manufacture, NOT to time of manufacture.

Jamey



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Re: Invalid Generalization !
Re: Invalid Generalization ! -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: gabriel Post Reply
04/13/2006, 03:54:14

Dear Jamey,

Thank you for this very interesting demonstration. I agree with you.

Gabriel



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You are welcome!
Re: Re: Invalid Generalization ! -- gabriel Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
04/14/2006, 01:25:16



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Hi Stef. To me, the shape suggests India.
Re: Re: Millefiore -not made in India -- Stefany Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
04/12/2006, 05:15:08



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Re: Millefiore
Re: Millefiore -- gabriel Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Evelyn Post Reply
04/12/2006, 04:12:18

In my humble opinion, this bead (it's shape and also the shape of it's perforation, from the little that I can see) reminds me of the re-worked Krobo glass fragment beads of the variety where often quite large fragments of old Venetian beads are being fused together to create a new bead.

In John & Ruth Picard's book "Millefiori Beads from the West African Trade" there are a number of beads very similar to Gabriel's: p23 # 155; p30 3rd strand from bottom up; p33 the elbow bead # 498; p52 # 1278; p56 bottom row; p85 #2800. ?



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Addendum - Sorry - "Edit" option does not work!
Re: Re: Millefiore -- Evelyn Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Evelyn Post Reply
04/12/2006, 04:16:41

In John & Ruth Picard's book "Millefiori Beads from the West African Trade" there are a number of beads very similar to Gabriel's: p23 # 155; p30 3rd strand from bottom up; p33 the elbow bead # 498; p52 # 1278; p56 bottom row; p85 #2800 .............

I would like to add that none of said Venetian beads have a shape similar to Gabriel's bead - but fragments of these types of Venetian beads could have been used for making his bead.?



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Re: Addendum - Sorry - "Edit" option does not work!
Re: Addendum - Sorry - "Edit" option does not work! -- Evelyn Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: gabriel Post Reply
04/12/2006, 04:31:55

Thank you Evelyn.

Gabriel



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More Info.
Re: Addendum - Sorry - "Edit" option does not work! -- Evelyn Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
04/12/2006, 05:22:20

Hi Evelyn,

I don't have the Picard book handy at the moment, but I will bet you have picked-out the beads I referred to when I wrote that Gabriel's bead is SIMILAR to some Venetian beads.

Among West African beads, made from recycled glass, I cannot think of any that have the swirled linear pattern seen in conjunction with Gabriel's bead. This is the main feature I refer to above, as copying Venetian beads.

Once again, if I can see the millefiori decoration more closely, I will have a better idea of what this bead may be. But, at the moment, I am inclined to doubt a West African (Krobo) origin. Gabriel's revelation that the bead has a black perforation deposit further suggests it may be an Indian bead, and certainly NOT a Venetian bead, nor an African bead.

Jamey



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Re: Addendum - Images
Re: Addendum - Sorry - "Edit" option does not work! -- Evelyn Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Evelyn Post Reply
04/12/2006, 06:01:45

All images below are from "Millefiori Beads of the West African Trade" by John & Ruth Picard.

15.jpg (80.0 KB)  


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Gabriel, if this is a tabular shaped bead as your dimensions suggest
Re: Re: Addendum - Images -- Evelyn Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Carl Dreibelbis Post Reply
04/12/2006, 06:15:32

then this is most likely a Venetian made bead from the early 1900s as Evelyn as suggested with her images here.



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Re: Gabriel, if this is a tabular shaped bead
Re: Gabriel, if this is a tabular shaped bead as your dimensions suggest -- Carl Dreibelbis Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Evelyn Post Reply
04/12/2006, 06:36:43

Indeed.

Judging by it's dimensions (that Gabriel posted after I had posted my first post) the bead appears to be tabular in shape. It had looked more like a bicone, to me anyway. Just goes to show how visually misleading images can be when not accompanied by measurements.



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Yes Evelyn, these are exactly the beads I was expecting to see.
Re: Re: Addendum - Images -- Evelyn Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
04/12/2006, 15:10:13



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Re: Addendum - Sorry - "Edit" option does not work!
Re: Addendum - Sorry - "Edit" option does not work! -- Evelyn Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: gabriel Post Reply
04/12/2006, 07:54:56

Evelyn,

Thank you very much for the documentation from Picard.

By the same way I would like to thanks all members who gave their opinion about this bead.

I attached more detailled pictures of it.

Gabriel



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Obviously a Venetian bead.
Re: Re: Addendum - Sorry - "Edit" option does not work! -- gabriel Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Carl Dreibelbis Post Reply
04/12/2006, 08:05:38



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Re: Obviously a Venetian bead.
Re: Obviously a Venetian bead. -- Carl Dreibelbis Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: gabriel Post Reply
04/12/2006, 10:53:13

Hello Carl,

Thank you for the conclusion. I purchased the bead as a quite rare Venetian at a high price from a reliable dealer, but having no reference concerning this sort of beads it was interesting to me to submit it to the Forum.

Gabriel



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Gabriel, it is an unusual Venetian tabular bead at that
Re: Re: Obviously a Venetian bead. -- gabriel Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Carl Dreibelbis Post Reply
04/12/2006, 11:21:48

Hi Gabriel,

I think it is an unusual Venetian tabular bead. I for one have never seen one of these in person.

Thanks for the post.

Carl



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Sorry - The photos don't come through for me.
Re: Re: Addendum - Sorry - "Edit" option does not work! -- gabriel Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
04/12/2006, 15:11:17



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Here you go Jamey
Re: Sorry - The photos don't come through for me. -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: TASART Post Reply
04/12/2006, 15:39:53

4_ja2.JPG (35.3 KB)  


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Re: Here you go Jamey
Re: Here you go Jamey -- TASART Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: TASART Post Reply
04/12/2006, 15:40:42

4_ja.JPG (28.8 KB)  


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nice & rare venetian bead
Re: Re: Here you go Jamey -- TASART Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: jp Post Reply
04/12/2006, 20:55:01

I believe it is a late 1800'or very early 1900' venetian millefiori in the same style of this oval one. I have not seen that particular one yet
JP

oldmili2.jpg (53.1 KB)  


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Re: Here you go Jamey
Re: Here you go Jamey -- TASART Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: TASART Post Reply
04/12/2006, 15:41:19

4_ja3.JPG (31.4 KB)  


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I appreciate the effort!
Re: Here you go Jamey -- TASART Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
04/12/2006, 15:46:14

Hi Thomas,

Unfortunately, I still cannot see the cane decorations well enough to get an idea of HOW they are made, and therefore by whom they would have been made.

That the bead is tabular makes a big difference, in terms of conceptualizing and contemplating its origin. However, I cannot think of any Venetian beads that have black perforation deposits.

Jamey



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Re: Black holes?
Re: I appreciate the effort! -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: stefany Post Reply
04/13/2006, 04:23:57

Isn't it just possible that this is a bead with decoration over a black-looking base glass, which can be seen when you look inside the hole?
Stefany



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Good point, Stefany, I have several Venetian tabulars with dark cores
Re: Re: Black holes? -- stefany Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Carl Dreibelbis Post Reply
04/13/2006, 09:05:51

Or dark appearing glass like a dark green. At first glance, it appears black.



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Re: Black holes?
Re: Re: Black holes? -- stefany Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
04/14/2006, 01:37:54

Hi Stef,

Indeed it is possible. The most common color for the bases of millefiori-decorated beads, made for the West African trade, is typical dark blue glass that appears black. These bases are often not full-fledged beads, but rather tend to be a little twist of glass to give something to apply the beads elements to. This is why they are small, and why they very often can be seen only at one end of the bead.

My reply was solely based on Gabriel's remark that "There is black hole deposit suggesting that the bead is old."

The bead might also just have a dirty perforation.

Unless one can SEE a bead, one must rely on the description offered. I began to change my mind about the bead when I came to realize it is tabular (which I could not tell from the first photos). And the "black deposit" continued to confound me, and incline me toward a non-Venetian origin.

The new scans clarify that the bead is most likely a Venetian trade bead, and closely related to the beads shown by Evelyn from the Picard book. Whewwwww!

Jamey



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Re: I appreciate the effort!
Re: I appreciate the effort! -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: gabriel Post Reply
04/13/2006, 08:49:12

Dear Jamey,

I post the separate pictures to your attention. Sorry for the Word document you could not opened.

Sincerely yours,

Gabriel

DSC08180.JPG (42.1 KB)  


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Re: I appreciate the effort!
Re: Re: I appreciate the effort! -- gabriel Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: gabriel Post Reply
04/13/2006, 08:50:24

The second one

DSC08182.JPG (41.1 KB)  


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Re: I appreciate the effort!
Re: Re: I appreciate the effort! -- gabriel Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: gabriel Post Reply
04/13/2006, 08:51:53

The third one

DSC08184.JPG (44.3 KB)  


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Re: I appreciate the effort!
Re: Re: I appreciate the effort! -- gabriel Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: gabriel Post Reply
04/13/2006, 08:53:41

The end...

I confirm the dimensions : 22 x 16 x 10

DSC08191.JPG (40.6 KB)  


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Re: Millefiore, Bravo, Gabriel, A great Venetian, indeed!!!!!!!
Re: Millefiore -- gabriel Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: adjichristine Post Reply
04/12/2006, 23:17:44



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Re: Millefiore, Bravo, Gabriel, A great Venetian, indeed!!!!!!!
Re: Re: Millefiore, Bravo, Gabriel, A great Venetian, indeed!!!!!!! -- adjichristine Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: gabriel Post Reply
04/13/2006, 04:01:04

Thank you Christine.

Gabriel



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