I would agree with your opinion

I'm just sad they aren't coming home to me! Great bidding Wayne!

Like I said until I have it in hand it is harder to tell but these are my reasons.
First I had the beads below that JP thought were also Venetian and there are similarities.
Second, Through my own personal observations I have found and seen other non trade bead Venetian's with a matte finish and the way the white is deteriorating on the beads to me is very characteristic of the type of ware I have seen on Venetian glass.
Third is the overall look of the beads to me just looks correct style color shape, call it the gut feeling.

As with anything we buy these days there is the possibility of modern replication. It is always hard to prove that a bead we have not seen before is old.
Once I have the beads in hand and can take a good look at them and feel the weight I will have a better sense of them.
I posted them here in the hopes some one may have seen them before and could help verify the beads origin and also to get the opinions both for and against them from people that I respect.
If I get them in hand and they turn out to be obviously new then it is a lesson learned, if not then I will be very happy.

Doubts - big-big doubts!

Not only because of the VERY SAME "SWIRLS" as seen on the "Band of 19".

HUGE DOUBTS!

This is not my strong field, but they look recently made to me. The matte finish bothers me especially.

Jan

Thanks Jan
The matte finish to me in this instance is not an issue.
I have seen and own examples of Venetian beads not made for the African trade with a matte finish before.
Also if you take a close look at the beads on the sample cards from the Sick collection you will see a variety of surface finishes on the lampwork beads from shinny to matte.

for me, they are recent and I did never see these in Africa, Ivory Coast, Mali, Burkina Faso, Niger, Togo, Cameroun, Benin.....

Thanks kika
Many Venetian bead styles were never traded into the African market.So that is not an issue to me on these. I agree with you that this bead type was never traded into the African market but that does not make it not Venetian or new.

could perhaps be related to yours?

By shape - by what else, Stef?

Oh! yes sure! but something says to me that the color and design seem for me to be indian or.......but recent. I don't really not, I have a big doubt, but I can make a mistake!

The decoration pattern, decoration loss and pitting lead me to believe these are the real deal. The lack of reference is also attractive for most of us after the rare and hard to find Venetian collector beads.

-Matt

They may very well be Venetian, but frankly from a picture you can't rule anything out. What is the hole size?
Wayne, when the beads are in your hands and with all the experience you have, you will be the best to judge.
I personally never saw them before, but it is not really a point since there are many beads surfacing from different directions all the time.
JP

For me, the deterioration of the white lines, look consistent with the aging of Venetian made beads. Also, I have not seen this in any of the replicas.

In my opinion definitely Venetian. Everything from look, feel, holes, color are all correct.
The surface seen in the original pictures is exaggerated. The finish is the same as other Venetian out of Europe not seen in the African trade.
I am very very happy.
Have not found a final place for them yet, right now they are living with these greens florals.
Wayne

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The newly purchased bead pattern reminds me of a plant tendril which go nicely with the floral beads you have added.

Glad they turned out to be old Venetian beads!

-Matt

Not that the world (or other things) are either black or white, but I am not a friend of wishi-washi kinda statements. One must collect pro's and con's, when being asked to evaluate a bead (a situation or anything else) - but the final statement, in my view, should be clear, without fear of being wrong. It's not helpful if the final conclusion leaves the door open both ways.

Unfortunately the poster did neither mentions the size of his beads, nor does he care to say where the beads were bought from. Not helpful if you're asking questions about a bead.

I do not believe the beads are a Venetian product! Here is why:

1.)It is true and known that new designs (of authentic and old [Venetian] beads) show up now and then. When 19 of them show up together, it is time to wonder, then worry, and ask the question of authenticity.

2.) There is no immedeate feeling: "No doubt - these are unmistakingly Venetian beads. Though hard to pinpoint why not, it is the general lack of "Laguna Veneta" air, I am breathing.

3.) The black base (at least on my screen) is more of an anthracite-greyish kinda color - weird, to say the least!

4.) The central "swirl-design" seems to be rather amateurish and often the idea of beadmaking novices, leave alone the weird green (for an old bead from Italy).

5.) The surface of the beads - uniformly matted - is completely lacking a convincing touch of age. It seems obvious that all pieces were treated at the same time, by the same means.

6.) The trailing shows no signs of Venetian intricacy and refinement, are instead rather ungraceful and inelegant (as much as the beadmaker - an amateur in my opinion - tried his best to give another impression)

7.) Despite a few tiny nicks here and there, I see none of the classic scars older beads generally wear with African pride.

8.) The surfaces show a few air-bubbles that broken open. That is nothing we would generally expect to see on older glassbeads from Venice.

The 19 glassbeads are most probably new. They could be from any of the Asian copy-cat industries, though ANYBODY with a torch and access to glass could have made them. They are not "Trade Beads", not old and not from Murano.

PS
Compare "swirls" - coincidental?
http://beadcollector.net/cgi-bin/anyboard.cgi?fvp=/openforum/&cmd=get&cG=33739333538393&zu=33373933333331&v=2&gV=0&p=

I saw the auction where the beads were purchased. The seller is in England and has a long history of selling outstanding Venetian beads.

I did not have to look very far for this example. Many lamp work fancy beads from Venice, whether for European jewelry applications or African & other trade, have air bubbles of various sizes. So I disagree with this part of your assessment.

I also disagree that finding sets of 19, or even 25 or more together indicates "not Venetian". The African traders typically have hundreds of strands of identical bead sets for example, including some very rare ones. And many antique necklaces are being sold today with intact sets of identical beads.

How did you conclude either one of these points applied to these beads in particular or any Venetian beads in general?

I trust Wayne's observations, especially after he has examined in hand. The beads were sourced from a solid dealer with some of the best Venetian beads for sale online.

The question, the owner of the beads raised, was about the authenticity of the beads. Are they old and authentic? Are they new and repros? Are they from Venice or were they made elsewhere?

How to know? How to find out, to answer the question?
Can we say something of value from photos alone or can only the scientific lab method give the ultimate answer (if even)?

I already made my case in a previous post, concluding the beads are neither of Venetian origin, nor old. In my opinion not really a difficult case to crack.

Today I would like to add further evidence based on my photo-analysis. Before I do so and in an effort to refresh your memories, here are photos of the two related candidates.

The following design-isolation and comparison make BEYOND CLEAR that both bead types - the duo and the necklaces - come from the VERY SAME source.

Is it likely - or how likely is it - that two sets of beads with identical design elements are old, but in the hands of the same collector, who had obviously aquired both types from the same dealer in Ebay?

Does that make the beads more likely to be old? Or is it evident that this speaks the CLEAR LANGUAGE of a contemporary faker?

White swirls on black = the duo
Green swirls on black = necklace

It is impossible to deny both beads were made by the very same hands, most probably at the very same time, most likely very recently.

On this photo I have added one set of swirls of "group A" onto the set of swirls of "group B" to make clear their (basically) IDENTICAL geometry.

I think it is not necessary to explain (again) why this fact speaks a clear language! One of fakery, at least should both sets of beads have been sold as being old and coming from Venice!

This beads - both groups - are contemporary non-Venetian products!

PS
The word, or the supposed reputation of an Ebay-dealer is no evidence of any kind whatsoever! I agree to the notion of a reliable dealer, but strongly!! disagree on this dealer's knowledge!

The beads are in Wayne's hands, and he has vast experience with Venetian beads. I think that his judgment weighs a little more than yours behind a screen.
JP

The seller of the beads here - who has watched this thread with interest and some anxiety and was relieved that the buyer was so pleased with them.
Without being too defensive, my instinct was that these were old and I stated my reasons in the listing.
I joined BCN many years ago but felt that as a dealer in beads it might be a bit presumptous of me to post asking for advice in order to further my business so have preferred to lurk.
Thank you for the kind remarks about me as a seller. Given the public criticism (which of course is always what we notice) I would just like to reassure that even though my self-taught knowledge of beads may not be up to the standard that some would like, I try to be an ethical dealer. I will always amend where I have made an error and will refund if I've made a mistake.
I feel privileged to have handled some wonderful beads over the years and so appreciate the depth of knowledge and appreciation of beads found here. Thank you.
Apologies for derailing the thread...

I don't recall ever buying beads from you but I know I've placed numerous bids. I've often wondered if you were selling off a lifelong collection/inheritance, or just have great places to find Venetian beads. Where I live in California they are certainly scarce. I'm in awe of your wonderful finds.

Thank you. I am fortunate to live in London where I am able to find a range of good beads but also travel throughout the UK to source them.
Sadly no bead inheritance - but I have made some wonderful friends worldwide through selling beads.

You make some great finds! It appears beads have been popular in the UK for a long time. Plus closer proximity to European bead making centers has made your part of the world bead-rich. At least in comparison to the USA. Lucky you, happy hunting!

Thank you Sarah, it is pleasure buying from you and you have a great eye.
I have seen you sell many magnificent items over the years and I am always happy when I can get one from you.
Wayne

First I want to thank everyone who read and or commented on this thread, it's been interesting and it's what BCN is all about.

When it comes to bead and bead identification there are some we can know without a doubt and some we will question.
When in question we rely on others opinions and experience plus our own knowledge and experience.
In the case of these beads I am happy with them and based on my 25 plus years of collecting I feel confident in my personal assessment of them.
Not everyone needs to agree, we are all entitled to our opinions and I respect that.
The need for me to convince people one way or another or provide further reason why I think the way I do is irreverent at this point.
The beads are for me, what I belive them to be and they are a happy part of my collection.
I think we can put this thread to bed at this point.

Wayne

The same dealer from London who sold you this repros, is uncertain if this beads are Venetian or Czech. By far not the first misrepresentation! That much about her knowledge!