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seals & beads ...for those who love them
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Posted by: redmountain Post Reply
11/14/2005, 18:31:34

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Re: seals & beads ...for those who love them
Re: seals & beads ...for those who love them -- redmountain Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: redmountain Post Reply
11/14/2005, 18:32:19

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Re: seals & beads ...for those who love them
Re: Re: seals & beads ...for those who love them -- redmountain Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: redmountain Post Reply
11/14/2005, 18:54:22

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Re: seals & beads ...for those who love them
Re: Re: seals & beads ...for those who love them -- redmountain Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: redmountain Post Reply
11/14/2005, 18:55:35

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Re: seals & beads ...for those who love them
Re: Re: seals & beads ...for those who love them -- redmountain Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: redmountain Post Reply
11/14/2005, 18:56:23

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all found in China ...hope they are not polymer :) Enjoy!
Re: Re: seals & beads ...for those who love them -- redmountain Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: redmountain Post Reply
11/14/2005, 19:24:50



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Unfortunately
Re: seals & beads ...for those who love them -- redmountain Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
11/15/2005, 16:26:08

These all look like fakes that come out of Afghanistan and Iran, such as can be seen in my book Magical Ancient Beads. They are sometimes old or ancient beads, that have been cut on one side to provide a seat for a "seal," and are then poorly engraved. I write "poorly" because these fakes are a shadow of the real things--being wheel-cut and crude. Take an impression and view the figure. Many ancient seals are surprisingly detailed and impressive when the impression is viewed. Many fakes are not.

I first became aware of Afghan beads crossing into China and being passed-off as "Chinese" about five to eight years ago. I believe this is a matter of recent bead movements and misrepresentation, rather than the (probably hoped-for) situation where beads changed hands in antiquity, and thus are now found in a variety of places.

Jamey



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thanks Jamey...for its authentic I think they themselves can speak :)
Re: Unfortunately -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: redmountain Post Reply
11/15/2005, 17:28:41

I first became aware of Afghan beads crossing into China and being passed-off as "Chinese" about five to eight years ago. I believe this is a matter of recent bead movements and misrepresentation, rather than the (probably hoped-for) situation where beads changed hands in antiquity, and thus are now found in a variety of places.

for this paragraph
I have my own view ... after Tang dynasty there still was a Trade Route in north China that connect middle east with far east(northeast china today) By this route, glass ,amber and many other goods had been transported to the east... This is just why we can see here in Peking or Manchou middle east antiques today

the pics below is what I found in my hometown .In my own view they are not made by my ancestors but imported from middle east...

what do you think ?

thanks again for your frank comments

R.M.

{46F4EB40-3B19-4F4C-9090-3B2870B3DC2F}0.jpg ( bytes)  


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another scoop-shaped agate pendent...
Re: thanks Jamey...for its authentic I think they themselves can speak :) -- redmountain Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: redmountain Post Reply
11/15/2005, 17:33:09


Related link: http://bbs.artron.net/attachments/day_050928/agate2_XteUK7j7GI4e.jpg

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here is the pic another scoop-shaped agate pendent...
Re: another scoop-shaped agate pendent... -- redmountain Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: redmountain Post Reply
11/15/2005, 17:34:35

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side view
Re: here is the pic another scoop-shaped agate pendent... -- redmountain Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: redmountain Post Reply
11/15/2005, 17:35:55

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here are some similar ones from Yemen
Re: here is the pic another scoop-shaped agate pendent... -- redmountain Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: judyah Post Reply
11/15/2005, 19:31:58

These ancient agate beads are a similar shape to yours. They came from an archeological area near Mareb in Northern Yemen. Judy

ancient_agate_beads.jpg (41.4 KB)  


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aha its said to be worn on the forehead of girls
Re: here are some similar ones from Yemen -- judyah Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: redmountain Post Reply
11/15/2005, 19:54:05


acquired from West Inner Mongolia this summer

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single...
Re: aha its said to be worn on the forehead of girls -- redmountain Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: redmountain Post Reply
11/15/2005, 19:59:16

{AE3A830A-3942-4EEA-8511-EB0759DCF883}0.jpg ( bytes)  


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Re: ...authentic ....
Re: thanks Jamey...for its authentic I think they themselves can speak :) -- redmountain Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
11/16/2005, 03:49:03

Dear RM,

I am not saying there are no authentic ancient beads in China that passed into that land from the Middle East. It would be a great surprise if there were not such beads. Plus, I have seen them.

What I am saying is that SOME of the beads being sold (over the past five years, that I know of) as "ancient Chinese" are not that, and have not been in China for very long. And, groups of these beads are typical of the inventories of Afghan and Himalayan merchants. I am reasonably sure your fake seals are expected examples of this phenomenon.

Jamey



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real one?
Re: Re: ...authentic .... -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: redmountain Post Reply
11/16/2005, 16:44:10

Dear Jamey

thanks for your comments again!

Though there are many many fakes in chinese antique markets
we have some tricks on identify agate articles.
anyway the real old one could be told from the fakes...

I just wonder about those you-said "fake" seals ...when do you think of their age
(I mean the carving if (obviously) the bead is old )

one thing I am sure that they are not newly made.

later I will tell you why

R.M.



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Re: Fake Seals from Afghanistan
Re: real one? -- redmountain Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
11/16/2005, 19:45:04

Dear RM,

I first saw these seals in quantity in 1987, in a large collection of beads from Afghanistan, that I was hired to compose into necklaces. (This was after I was asked to authenticate the whole collection some weeks earlier.) The collection included beads spanning 500 BCE to modern beads, with lots of Sassanian and Islamic specimens; and quite a few fakes—including fake amber. Since then, I have seen many of these fake seals, along the same line. They are very recognizable. The collection shown in Magical Ancient Beads (though not necessarily all of them) were the next big group I examined.

The images are limited to a few subjects that I've seen over and over again: animals (like lions and bulls), a male profile (supposedly Alexander), geometrical lines, and the like. The thing is, these seal images are NOT made the way authentic ancient seals were produced. The ancient methods relied on rotary grinding, to create recessed circles. Then these circles were joined together to make up images. It's very akin to drilling. The fakes are wheel-cut. A grinding wheel is used to engrave cuts (usually "V"-shaped) that form lines. They have sloppy ends and produce a matte surface. The details of the images are crude. The look is very different from classical seals—and all this becomes very apparent when you make impressions in clay and LOOK at the images.

This is not to say that all ancient seals have nice images, nor that fakes never have nice images. The point is, it's a lot easier to spot the obvious fakes. Seals are not my speciality. There are many times when I would be unsure whether a piece is authentic or not—because there are some very good fakes in collections and on the market. All this began at least 100 years ago when seals became remarkably collectible in England. I have written about this a number of times. Unfortunately, I don't know when the fakes we are discussing here were made—but I don't think it was so terribly long ago. I suspect not before the mid-20th century, but it's only a guess.

I'll try to show some images when I can sort them out and make scans.

Jamey



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when you first saw the fakes I was in my elementary school...
Re: Re: Fake Seals from Afghanistan -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: redmountain Post Reply
11/17/2005, 19:21:04

So since you have seen the same fakes and sure about it.
I respect your eye.

but my own tricks to identify agate or carnelian are
the aging signs on the surface and the polishing signs ...

you can see the shinings (from the surface of the carving side and other sides ) are consistent and that means the same aging extent.

So if the bead is old(I am sure about it) ,I do not think the carving side is newly cut...

as to the carving (cuts) itself... I think you are right but what I want to say is In china wheel-cut had been adopted pretty early ...how could not this kind of tools used by others of the same age?

forgive me for my poor english

R.M.



Modified by redmountain at Thu, Nov 17, 2005, 19:21:40

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A Pictorial of Afghan Seal-Beads
Re: seals & beads ...for those who love them -- redmountain Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
11/20/2005, 07:07:08

Hi you all,

I have scanned a number of speciemns from my archive, showing examples of seal-beads from Afghanistan. Most, if not all, of these were probably made in India (based on the quality of the carnelian). However, Iran cannot be ruled-out.

I want to begin by showing a few groups from the Ehrenfeld Collection, that I became familiar with in 1987, and worked with over the next two or three years. Dr. Ehrenfeld was a fairly famous collector of Indian art—particularly North Indian miniatures. His home was quite a repository of almost everything you can imagine; and he devised two significant museum shows in the '80s and '90s (the second of which I attended in San Francisco). He was a cardiologist by profession, and famous for his work in angioplasty. He actually saved my life once, by getting me into a hospital to deal with an infection that was being maltreated by my local hospital out-patient service. I remain eternally grateful.

It is a sad fact that Dr. Ehrenfeld passed away about two weeks ago. I belive he was 71, and had not been in good health for a while.

When I met him in 1987, I was asked to view his collection of beads from an Afghan merchant, that he had purchased a few years earlier. He showed them previously to Dr. Dales at UC Berkeley—who, surprisingly, told him they were all fakes (!). The collection ws actually quite good, ranging from ca. 500 BCE to modern times, and containing a lot of beads of several origins and materials—but all having presumably come out of Afghanistan, except for an Egyptian funerary beadwork piece, that many of you have already seen.

Dr. Ehrenfeld was not particularly interested in beads, per se, so it's was odd that he invested in whole collections on at least three occassions. For the most part, he had me work with the beads, and turned around and sold them. Many went to Japan. Over the previous five years, he developed an interest in African beads, and invested quite a lot of money in them, with mixed results. Unfortunately, he was sold a LOT of new beads (like from China and India) that he was told were "African," with the implication or statement that they were traditional and old products. This past year, I spent several months, into 2005, preparing an appraisal and catalogue of this collection, for his eventual donation of it to several institutions.

Anyway, let's begin with this shot of a group of fake seals from Afghanistan. They are made from agate beads, many or most of which may be old specimens that have been adapted to become "seals," for the purpose of being passed-off as "ancient." We'll get closer and closer as we go along. Note that the majority are spherical, but there are also oblate, oval, and elongated shapes too. Note also the nice variety of qualities of agate, in the greater carnelian family.

Jamey

WE_seal_group_1.jpg (51.3 KB)  


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A Closer View of the Group
Re: A Pictorial of Afghan Seal-Beads -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
11/20/2005, 07:10:04

These are the same beads, organized somewhat differently.

JDA.

WE_seal_group3.jpg (89.2 KB)  


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Still Closer
Re: A Closer View of the Group -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
11/20/2005, 07:12:59

The largest central bead has the profile face of a bearded man, wearing something like a crested helmet or headdress (something like we associate with Roman soldiers?).

JDA.

WE_fake_seal_group.jpg (68.6 KB)  


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Re: Still Closer
Re: Still Closer -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: alipersia Post Reply
06/05/2009, 00:27:09

Dear:jamey
any beginner can realize these face seals in a pack are fake.stone is not that valuble to be a real king face seal.it has no pahlavi caliougrafi.work is not artistic.i can buy like these from afghanestan even now.so its not neccesery to be an expert to know these new works.
Ali



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Individual Specimens
Re: A Closer View of the Group -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
11/20/2005, 07:19:34

In the group of three beads, we can see two profiles (upsidedown) flanking a quadruped animal. All of these represent the the most typical crude seal imitations, in terms of quality. This being the time and skill invested to create a decent image of some artistic value. As such, these are not convincing fakes, and have no particular merit.

JDA.

WE_3fake_seals.jpg (50.9 KB)  


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A Lion
Re: A Closer View of the Group -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
11/20/2005, 07:20:57

This seal bead shows a crude image of a lion.

JDA.

WE_fake_seal_lion_copy.jpg (46.1 KB)  


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Another Bearded Face
Re: A Closer View of the Group -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
11/20/2005, 07:22:20

Here's another hairy guy, cut into dark agate.

JDA.

WE_fake_seal_face.jpg (60.0 KB)  


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A Camel?
Re: A Closer View of the Group -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
11/20/2005, 07:24:06

It's hard to say what was intended here. The figure looks something like a camel, or even a llama.

JDA.

WE_fake_seal_camel.jpg (48.4 KB)  


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Re: A Closer View of the Group
Re: A Closer View of the Group -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: alipersia Post Reply
06/05/2009, 00:14:49

even a beginner can realize these new seals.i real king face seal is never without pahlavi caliografi.also these stones are not that vauble to be an old seal.
ALI



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The Beck Group
Re: A Pictorial of Afghan Seal-Beads -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
11/20/2005, 07:33:32

In 1996, I composed the book Magical Ancient Beads for a Swiss collector named Ulrich Beck. He likewise had a considerable collection of ancient beads, many of which came from Afghanistan. However, he collected most of his beads personally, while traveling abroad.

If you read the text, related to the seals, you may note that I do not come out and say "they are all fakes." However, my opinion is that many or most of the seal beads were, in fact, fakes. But it was not my job to say so. I was hired to describe....

Here's a group shot, from which we'll see individual specimens next.

JDA.

UB_seal_group.jpg (83.7 KB)  


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Symbol
Re: The Beck Group -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
11/20/2005, 07:38:02

I want to show a couple of specimens that I am inclined to believe may be actual ancient seals. This one is made from bright carnelian, with what might be characterized as a "heraldic device"—something like a family crest or tribal affiliation symbol. Note how the whole bead face is distressed all over. If it's a fake, it's a fairly convincing fake.

JDA.

UB_seal_1.jpg (51.1 KB)  


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Writing
Re: Symbol -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
11/20/2005, 07:41:04

Again, it is the condition of the piece, as wells as its design, that suggest this may be an ancient specimen. When you get to look at dozens or hundreds of specimens, examples that are not the conventional oft-repeated designs certainly stand out.

JDA.

UB_seal_2.jpg (56.8 KB)  


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Re: Writing
Re: Writing -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: alipersia Post Reply
06/05/2009, 00:19:40

jamey
you took upside down pic.and its not a seal just some farsi caliougrafi
on stone.maybe 100 yaers old.
Ali



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Re: The Book & That Photograph
Re: Re: Writing -- alipersia Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
06/05/2009, 05:20:52

Dear Ali,

Please try to understand.

This is not my photograph—and it is not so-placed by me. The book is a document of a private collection, owned by Ulrich Beck (a Swiss architect and collector). Ulrich hired the photographer, selected the images, and organized them for publication. My personal opinions about the photographs, and his choices and decisions, have been presented a number of times. I like some and do not like others. I recommended not using some, but my recommendations were usually not taken.

My responsibility with the book was to write the two major chapters that discuss the broad divisions of the beads (Middle Eastern beads first, followed by Indonesian beads, and with a few others); and my job was to edit the submissions of other guest authors. For this work I received an "author credit." However, the book is essentially Ulrich's book. I am not in any way unhappy about the book. Certainly I am not ashamed of it. But it would be incorrect to think of it as "Jamey's book," because it is not that.

I would have composed a very different book.

In regards to this photograph, I doubt that Ulrich knew whether it (the bead) was presented right-side-up or not. I have no reason to suspect he would purposely present it up-side-down. I also have no reason to suspect he paid any attention to the calligraphy at all. (He may have assumed the text was so old there would be no chance of a translation, for all I know.)

Jamey



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A Bird
Re: The Beck Group -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
11/20/2005, 07:43:24

This seal-bead shows the profile of a bird. While it is not bad looking, it is also fairly crude in its rendering, like many of the fakes we saw in the Ehrenfeld collection.

JDA.

UB_fake_seal_bird.jpg (52.8 KB)  


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Another Bird
Re: A Bird -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
11/20/2005, 07:44:36

A similar bird design, but with a wing raised.

JDA.

UB_fake_seal_bird2.jpg (52.8 KB)  


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A Bull and Star
Re: The Beck Group -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
11/20/2005, 07:46:12

Quadrupeds are frequent subjects for real and fake seals. Here, we see a crudely rendered bull, and above his back a star.

JDA.

UB_fake_seal_bull.jpg (50.4 KB)  


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A Goat
Re: The Beck Group -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
11/20/2005, 07:47:21

This piece of yellowish carnelian has the figure of a horned goat.

JDA.

UB_fake_seal_goat.jpg (49.4 KB)  


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Antelope?
Re: A Goat -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
11/20/2005, 21:41:19

For those of you who decide this is an antelope, I have to agree it may be one.

JDA.



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Another Animal
Re: The Beck Group -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
11/20/2005, 07:49:33

I'm at a loss to identify this creature! Of course, real seals are known to have fantastic and imaginary animals on them. The lord knows what this is supposed to be.

JDA.

UB_fake_seal_animal.jpg (60.3 KB)  


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Re: Another Animal
Re: Another Animal -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Logan Post Reply
11/20/2005, 08:05:58

It almost has a rodent-llike appearance, or perhaps even a dragon?



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Re: Another Animal--a hare?
Re: Another Animal -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: claudian Post Reply
11/20/2005, 08:30:53



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Looks bovine to me. Notice the hooves and horns.
Re: Another Animal -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Carl Dreibelbis Post Reply
11/20/2005, 09:01:14



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Obviously a Long-Tailed Jackalope, Texas, I believe, Carl?
Re: Another Animal -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Jan Skipper Post Reply
11/20/2005, 12:47:11



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Dang it Mr. Skipper, I think you are right!
Re: Obviously a Long-Tailed Jackalope, Texas, I believe, Carl? -- Jan Skipper Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Carl Dreibelbis Post Reply
11/20/2005, 14:52:38



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The Liese Group
Re: A Pictorial of Afghan Seal-Beads -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
11/20/2005, 07:54:45

Over the years I have worked with Gabrielle Liese in Arizona, I have always found her to be extraordinarily generous and encouraging of my goals and efforts. I have spent countless hours documenting her bead collections, and have thousands of images.

I'd like to show two very nice seal specimens.

This one is produced from variegated jasper or jaspagate, and depicts a lion attacking a deer. The details are pretty good. I might be inclined to suspect this were an authentic ancient seal, had I not already been exposed to so many fakes. But I suspect it may be a fake. But if so, it's a darn good fake.

JDA.

GL_lion_seal_comp.jpg ( bytes)  


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Seal Impression
Re: The Liese Group -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
11/20/2005, 07:57:52

This is what an impression in modeling clay looks like. Look carefully. It's easy for your eye to see this as a recessed image rather than the raised image it actually is. Note the elaborate antlers of the stag. The lion is over the stag, in this angle, and the stag is upsidedown.

JDA.

GL_seal_impression.jpg ( bytes)  


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Another Deer
Re: The Liese Group -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
11/20/2005, 08:05:50

This deer or stag is one of the nicest specimens I have seen from Afghanistan (or that region). The bead itself is nicely rendered, with attractive cuts that are not commonplace. The animal is not particularly elaborate or detailed, but certainly is rendered fairly well. The bead, as a whole, is beautiful—particularly because of the gorgeous patina.

I looked at this bead over and over, and studied the photographs I took as carefull as possible.

I had to come to the conclusion that when the carving was applieded, the patina was already there. The design actually CUTS THROUGH the external patina of the stone—indicating that the bead is much older than the carving. Otherwise, the patina would be equally over the recesses that make up the image and the cut decorations around the bead.

I'm afraid it is a beautiful fake.

More later today.

Jamey

GL_deer_seal_comp.jpg ( bytes)  


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Thanks Giving
Re: A Pictorial of Afghan Seal-Beads -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Logan Post Reply
11/20/2005, 08:12:37

This is what I have missed on this forum. Now, along with Carl's magnificent collection and Claudian's superb art beadscapes, I am thankful once again to be here. At the risk of sounding too "sweet," I must say, "Thanks, Jamey, for taking so much time and effort to post this wonderful pictoral essay." Luann and Anne: I know you have been busy with your artwork... please post some photos soon.



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Thank You!
Re: Thanks Giving -- Logan Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
11/20/2005, 08:20:32

Hi Linda,

I hope you and all the Forumites have a nice holiday this coming week.

Jamey



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while Jamey is in "Seal Mode" My curious jasper seal..one inch
Re: A Pictorial of Afghan Seal-Beads -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: claudian Post Reply
11/20/2005, 08:42:57

just posting for your thoughts. Image appears to be two deer, in opposite positions so no matter how you look you can see one deer normally and the other upside down. Any comments appreciated. Steve

1_jasper1.jpg (41.4 KB)  


Modified by claudian at Sun, Nov 20, 2005, 09:31:06

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a second view showing overall shape
Re: while Jamey is in "Seal Mode" My curious jasper seal..one inch -- claudian Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: claudian Post Reply
11/20/2005, 08:43:34

jasper2.jpg (43.9 KB)  


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the deer..also a strange Egyptian-looking symbol above one of them
Re: a second view showing overall shape -- claudian Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: claudian Post Reply
11/20/2005, 08:44:57

jasper3.jpg (45.3 KB)  


Modified by claudian at Sun, Nov 20, 2005, 08:45:29

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close-up of "hieroglyph"
Re: the deer..also a strange Egyptian-looking symbol above one of them -- claudian Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: claudian Post Reply
11/20/2005, 09:00:22

jasper4a.jpg (20.9 KB)  


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similar to the middle Egyptian phonetic sign
Re: close-up of "hieroglyph" -- claudian Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: claudian Post Reply
11/20/2005, 09:02:59

phonetic.jpg (15.6 KB)  


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It's very handsome!
Re: while Jamey is in "Seal Mode" My curious jasper seal..one inch -- claudian Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
11/20/2005, 16:31:57



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Re: It's very handsome! thanks---hmmmmmmm
Re: It's very handsome! -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: claudian Post Reply
11/20/2005, 16:52:27



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Very Nicely done, an important issue for many collectors !
Re: A Pictorial of Afghan Seal-Beads -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Jan Skipper Post Reply
11/20/2005, 12:48:13



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Re: A Pictorial of Afghan Seal-Beads
Re: A Pictorial of Afghan Seal-Beads -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: hans Post Reply
11/20/2005, 13:44:35

Dear Jamey,

thank you for taking the time for this instructive thread

Can I call this bead a seal as well?

16,1 x 21,3 x 9,5mm. Djemdet Nasr?

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Re: Seal-Bead
Re: Re: A Pictorial of Afghan Seal-Beads -- hans Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
11/20/2005, 16:30:14

Hello Hans,

As I remarked, I am not an expert on seals or seal-beads, so I'm not in much of a position to make a determination about your specimen. I cannot say I've seen anything quite like it.

Is it hematite? And where is it from, and what were you told? Did you try to make an impression of it in a soft material like modeling clay?

It often happens that it is much easier to say that something is a fake than that it is authentic—particularly based on a photograph. Fakes are much easier to regognize. But your bead could be "a seal" whether it's ancient or modern.

Jamey



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Thanks, Jamey. Very educational and a lot of work!
Re: A Pictorial of Afghan Seal-Beads -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Carl Dreibelbis Post Reply
11/20/2005, 16:10:39



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Very educational and a lot of work!
Re: Thanks, Jamey. Very educational and a lot of work! -- Carl Dreibelbis Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Russ Nobbs Post Reply
11/20/2005, 16:52:21

I agree, Jamey. that was a very intersting series. As I bought some old style carvings (Bi discs & similar 50 to 150mm items) in China last week I wondered how many will end up being sold by someone down the line as old goods.



Modified by Russ Nobbs at Sun, Nov 20, 2005, 16:52:51

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Thanks, both of you
Re: Very educational and a lot of work! -- Russ Nobbs Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
11/21/2005, 02:08:07

Russ, I will look forward to reading about your trip to China, and to seeing what you have at Tucson, or wherever our paths cross.

Jamey



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China Gets Into The Act
Re: A Pictorial of Afghan Seal-Beads -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
11/22/2005, 02:06:31

Earlier this year, while I was bopping around with Alice Scherer, here in Santa Rosa, and we had gone to Legendary Beads to visit Joyce, I happened upon this new piece that I thought was rather well-made, for what it is, and very reasonably priced. So I bought it for my specimen collection.

In recent years, Chinese manufacturers have not only made new knock-offs of earlier East Asian pieces, but have begun to copy nearly everything you can imagine. Over the past three years, we have seen them go with Venetian-style millefiori and chevron beads with a vengence. I have been intrigued by white metal copies of various regional/ethnic beads (that are or were silver or silver-gilt in earlier times)—including stuff that is patterned after Tibetan and Afghan items.

So, when I saw this white metal pendant, set with a glass "stone" imitating a carnelian intaglio depicting a horse (not very different from a seal image), I thought is was rather cunning and collectible. We see it here enlarged, and with the intaglio enlarged to show detail.

In the past, similar work would have been done in Afghanistan, using stones from India. And a carnelian would typically be more orange than this, but reddish stones are known as well. As near as I can tell, the design has been rendered by hand, and is not molded into the glass. The recesses are also covered by a dark substance that looks more or less like paint. (The Czechs did this a lot with molded items.) I imagine the tool may have been something like an electric engraver, such as jewelers use to sign pieces or add decorator initials. ("Your initials or greeting carved right onto the piece!") Or it may just be a flex-shaft appliance.

Anyway, China is a force to be reckoned in the jewelry world. In a few years, no one will know where anything really comes from. Many people are already unaware of origins, or whether an item is precious metal or base metal, handmade or not—and they don't seem to care. Or, if they understand that a piece is Chinese, it won't matter that it's not Afghan, or Tibetan, or Amercian Indian—or whatever it used to be.

Jamey

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Re: China Gets Into The Act
Re: China Gets Into The Act -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Logan Post Reply
11/22/2005, 03:13:01

I absolutely love the metal work around this piece. It would look beautiful on an angora turtleneck. I do believe it's time for you to be publishing another book, my friend. It's been awhile since "Magical Ancient Beads" and you've posted so many beautiful and informative pieces since that time. Alas, I sent my extra signed book plate to Joy B, so I'd need to bother you for another one. (grin)

Perhaps one day my dream of seeing a "trade" bead calendar with artwork from our forum members and a new book from you will be realized. Until then, I have this forum, which is a haven to me.

At this time of "thanksgiving" celebrations in the USA, I'd like to, once again, thank our hosts Joyce and David, and all of the artists and collectors who make my day a little bit brighter. My life is frought with "hectic" from caring for an aging parent and teenage daughters, and this board brings comfort to me daily. Thank you, from the bottom of my heart.

Sentimental Logan



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Hmmm..., A Matter of New Opinion
Re: China Gets Into The Act -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
02/26/2019, 02:35:53

February 2019

At the Tucson Show nearly two weeks ago, I happened to be wearing this pendant on a recently-made necklace of red Chinese beads. An Afghan seller mentioned it to me and remarked that it was an Afghan piece. I said, "no, this is a new Chinese piece imitating Afghan work, that I bought about eight years ago." [Surprisingly, it was 13 years ago!] He looked at it more carefully, and said, "no—this is for sure an Afghan piece. I can show you some similar pieces." And he took me to a table where, indeed, there were carved glass pieces inlaid into white metal mounts. As well as just the glass elements. Sooooo, I am adjusting to the idea that my supposed identification as "Chinese" was mistaken.

By the way, he also told me that some of the carnelian beads in the necklace were also Afghan, and showed me similar strands in his inventory.

This just demonstrates that one has to remain open-minded, listen to ideas that may initially be easy to reject, and reconsider one's position. And also, one should be willing to admit when he has made a mistake—and make an effort to correct it.

JDA.



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