| Original Message: Excerpts From Past Dialogues Here |
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NAMES 4-19-2006 - Allen [to Evelyn]: “I just received my new Ornament and was paging through it earlier today on the bus to home. Your article on Kiffa (muracad) beads looks very nice. I look forward to reading it.” 6-27-06 - Busch [to the audience]: “Instead they are just a certain type of simpler Nourakad, though not mahmoud-made, of course.” “Not all beads on this photo show Nourakad.” 6-28-06 - Busch [to Steve]: “The bead itself is not only simple and plain, also rather,....yes, ugly even, surely when compared to other, leave alone elaborate Nourakad.” “Nourakad with ‘Hambilya-design’ are possibly the most common design among round shaped powderglass beads from Mauritania.” 6-28-06 - Allen [to Stricker]: “Kirk Stanfield swears that his informant in Mauritania specifically said that what we popularly call "Kiffa" beads are called "murakad" by Mauritanians. Further, he says the name "nourakad" ONLY refers to a shape of certain beads, and is not a general name for the whole group. "Nourakad" was published by Jürgen Busch as a general name. Kirk says he [Busch] was misinformed or that he possibly misunderstood.” 6-30-06 - Busch [to adjichristine]: “Sorry, I am not so familiar with your names, but I think it was Steve who had shown some of his Nourakad recently, but asked a question about a specific one.” 6-30-06 - Busch [to Evelyn]: “The patina, workmanship and general appearance tells the rest. A rare and obscure Nourakad.” 9-14-06 - Allen [to adichristine]: “Murakad beads must be later than the beads they copy. As demonstrated in my article in Ornament, murakad beads routinely copy beads that are as old as the Islamic Period, and from as late as the late Trade Bead Period—the 20th century.” 1-24-07 - Allen [to PK]: “Kiffa beads, also called ‘muracad,’ are modern beads.” 8-16-07 - Allen [to BCN Admin]: “Are muracad (‘Kiffa’) beads modern? They absolutely are!” 9-2-08 - Allen [to Morris] “Although some Kiffa (murakad) beads copy Venetian millefiori beads, I don't know of a Venetian millefiori bead with a pattern similar to this one.” 11-15-08 - Busch [to Allen]: “NOT "Muracad"! MOUARGHAD is the bead's real name, instead!” 11-19-08 - Allen [to the audience]: “‘Muracad’ is the name Kirk Stanfield received from an informant in Mauritania. It has been published, and he has communicated to me that he believes the name Mr. Busch prefers is wrong. If Mr. Busch thinks he is not mistaken, he can prove it. My mind is open. The informant didn't speak to me....” 11-19-08 - Busch [to Allen]: “You, of all people, suddenly rely on an [sic] follow Kirk, not me, when it comes to information on ‘Kiffas’?” “Right, Kirk insisted - that was a few years ago, when he returned from a trip to Mauritania - the correct Hassaniya name for ‘Kiffa Beads’ is ‘MURACAD’. True is [sic] is further, that I disagreed an [sic] said ‘NURACAD’ was the correct spelling an pronounciation [sic]. With an ‘N’ and not an ‘M’ in the front, I said! Kirk said the opposite! The difference was the difference between an ‘M’ and an ‘N’. KIRK WAS CORRECT! But wait...!” “... I insist, actually I know!!, that Kirk´s knowledge on ‘Kiffas’ is less than mine.” “...I am certain that Kirk´s ‘Kiffa-knowledge’ on the other hand, exeeds [sic] the knowledge you have on this [sic] beads.” “Had you read, had you known that I already came up with a third and very recent version of the spelling -one that is neither Kirk´s nor my version with an ‘N’ in the front - both had been wrong, actually - but since I had given the translation of that word in that post (2-3 days back), you should have sensed that I expanded my knowledge on the correct spelling, meanwhile!” 1-26-13 - Stanfield [to Stricker]: “the ‘murakad’” 11-15-16 - Busch [to the audience]: “I propose we change old habbits and call the beads Muraqat (‘The Colorful’)- their real name ..., in Mauritania, their place of origin." ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? THE TIME-RANGE FOR ROLLED-PAD BEADS 6-27-06 - Busch [to the audience]: “Not all beads on this photo show Nourakad. One of them shown here is of Middle Eastern production, possibly, more surely than just possibly, made some time around 800-1000 AD.” 6-28-06 - Busch [to Evelyn]: “Locally called ‘HAMBLIYA’, this ca. 1000 year old drawn bead from Fustat (Cairo) - being of the same period than ‘MORFIA’..." 8-17-07 - Allen [to Gabriel]: “I agree that Islamic Period glass beads are ‘ancient’ beads—and I have never said otherwise. In fact, I am the PRIME motivator in the recognition of the contribution of beadmaking from this period. Prior to my personal work in this arena, the typical presentation of these beads suggested they were ‘Roman’—making them about 1,000 year's too early. I have worked for twenty-three years to change this perception and misrepresentation, beginning with what I still regard as the correct timeframe for beads from West Africa that I maintain are Islamic, but that are still routinely misrepresented as ‘Roman’ (that began in the mid-1980s). There can be no doubt that the tradition of Islamic beadmaking extends back into Roman times, and no doubt that this is an ancient tradition. However, it is much less than accurate to call it a ‘Roman tradition’—because this region is the HOME of glassworking, and it's the Romans who merely exploited it rather than devised it. I hope this clarifies my position. I have said all of this MANY times.” 9-10-06 - Allen [to Steve]: “Prior to the time that I introduced the concept of Islamic Period beads, all of these were routinely identified as ‘Roman’ beads. This was happening, even from knowledgeable bead researchers, as recently as about ten years ago. My ideas stem from my original research conducted in the early '80s, and stressed in lectures and publications ever since that time.” 11-15-08 - Allen [to Gabriel]: “This is a rolled-pad glass bead, made from a millefiori plaque. As such it cannot be Venetian, because they never made beads this way. Rolled-pad beads date from Roman through Islamic times, and are practically no longer made (even by most fakers--which is how you can tell a bead is a fake). Your bead is somewhat similar to a bunch Thomas Stricker showed a while back, though from simpler canes. These are Islamic Period beads that inspired certain beads from Mauritania in the Kiffa (muracad) family.” 11-15-08 - Busch [to Allen]: “What do you mean saying this [sic] beads are from the ‘Islamic period’?” “You stated these are ‘Islamic Period’ beads while, elsewhere, you call rolled-pad beads being from Roman through Islamic times. How are you going to argue yourself out of your very own contradiction?” “Such beads are most likely from Egyptian workshops - possibly FUSTAT-made around 800-850 AD - the original ‘design-idea’ goes possibly further back into the past and into Roman times!” 11-24-08 - Allen [to the audience]: “In my 1996 article on Kiffa beads, I indicated that certain patterns copy the decorations of a specific group of rolled-pad beads from the Islamic Period. I demonstrated this by showing both bead styles, and substantiated it with a reliable reference (using a work by Johann Callmer—the eminent Scandinavian scholar who has published often on Viking beads). Here's a work that was published the same year as my article, that further substantiates my observation. This is p. 157 from a work titled ‘Ancient Trades and Cultural Contacts in Southeast Asia.’ Note that these same rolled-pad beads are shown, and are said to be Eastern Mediterranean and from ca. the 9th to 10th centuries (though recovered in Thailand).” ????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? “EXACTLY THE SAME” ? 11-15-08 - Allen [to Gabriel]: “This is a rolled-pad glass bead, made from a millefiori plaque. As such it cannot be Venetian, because they never made beads this way. Rolled-pad beads date from Roman through Islamic times, and are practically no longer made (even by most fakers--which is how you can tell a bead is a fake). Your bead is somewhat similar to a bunch Thomas Stricker showed a while back, though from simpler canes. These are Islamic Period beads that inspired certain beads from Mauritania in the Kiffa (muracad) family. They are fairly rare beads--so enjoy. 11-15-08 - Busch [to Allen]: “This bead is not - compared to Thomas´ beads - just ‘somewhat simelar’ [sic], as you say. I say the bead is EXACTLY of the VERY same family: same size; same shape; same colors; same color combinations AND same production technic as Thomas' beads!” ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? ANOTHER VIEW OF THE PROBLEM OF CRITICIZING OTHERS 11-20-08 - Will [to Busch]: “You are wrong on several counts. You are wrong initially because you jump into a judgement about these beads without offering any adequate justification for your opinion. You say, at one point, that the right-hand bead is a fake made in Indonesia. In fact, it is nothing like the Indonesian fakes of Warring States beads. Then, elsewhere, you say that you have seen a lot of these beads in Peshawar. I know Peshawar quite well, too, and I very much doubt that assertion, or rather I would bet that you didn't look closely enough at the beads you saw there to notice how different they were from the beads that Steve posted here. What I am saying is that you need to back up your assertions with something more concrete, something called evidence, and you haven't in fact done that with any of the beads whose authenticity you have recently called into question on this forum. So that makes you wrong, not just on this particular count, but habitually. It is quite simply irresponsible to start challenging things merely because you ‘feel there is something wrong with them.’ Why should I trust your feelings? I want to hear your reasons. And you are wrong again when you accuse people of reacting in either a defensive or a cowardly way when they take offence to your unsubstantiated assertions or, alternatively, when they don't reply at all because they can't be bothered to argue with someone who hasn't had any arguments to present. Why do you assume that they owe you something more?” All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users |
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