Post Message Search Overview RegisterLoginAdmin

The following 18 messages have been found.
(Search pattern:gooseberry beads, since Sun, Jan 01, 1995, 13:53:31)

red/white adventurine wound glass beads
Post Reply Edit View All Forum
Posted by: red Post Reply
03/29/2007, 03:11:19

I found these at the weekend, I love them...maybe its the the colour!!!
I guess at venetian, but would be very grateful for any opinions re age origin etc.
The beads are 1.6 cm diameter with a 3mm hole 25 beads on a knotted red silk? cord has a large silver barrel screw type clasp and two matching 8mm diameter beads at each end of the strand.

RED3.jpg (65.8 KB)  RED323.jpg (52.2 KB)  

© Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Re: Scroddled ="agateware"
Re: Scroddled definition with apology :-} -- Snap Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Stefany Post Reply
03/31/2007, 13:55:15

No need to apologise.-
This is a new term for me, but I know this swirled slip effect and have several necklaces of threaded agateware bead elements, such as the outer necklace shown on page 103 in my book "Beads!" :
The glazed swirled coloured slip discs shown there each have 4 holes and were designed to be threaded together in a particular way, with 2 matching "End Spacers" that draw the 2 parallel strands together to one, and a cylindrical bead used as a toggle at one end with a loop for it at the other.

My impression of the lampwork glass beads under discussion here is that the 2-colour swirling is very controlled and gives a rather regular spiral at intervals around the girth of the bead. The "Scroddled" ceramic items are more like randomly scrambled.

Obviously the ceramic material even when rather liquid behaves differently from molten glass, but both give a stirred or swirled look
that can be decorative.

You use the term for glass marbles. Is it generally accepted in the marble-collecting world?


© Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Scroddled is in body; if "agateware" = slip, it is on surface, not scroddled
Re: Re: Scroddled ="agateware" -- Stefany Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Snap Post Reply
03/31/2007, 22:58:25

You ask if 'scroddled' is term used in glass marble-collecting circles.

Not to my knowledge. In marble-collecting world, there is much attention not to the presence or absence of different-colord glasses, but to their specific pattern or lack thereof. Flame, corkscrew, hurricane, Boy Scout, bumblebee, Popeye, many other terms, defined by both pattern and color combination. If you think this is weird, compare with 'skunk,' 'eye,' 'feather' and 'gooseberry'.

I made the mistake of making an analogy, which is a reasonable way to understand the difference between mixed glasses and surface treatment. But in the world of beads that differentiation certainly does not cover all cases, with all the varieties of layering, trailing, inserting recycled beads, inserting pieces of cane, mosaic and so forth.

I did not mean the term 'scroddled' to apply to beads broadly. I meant it to refer to seeing different types or shades of glass that were not well marvered, and to refer to some marbles in which one of the white glasses looks waxy or fatty--that I have seen especially where distinct glasses are swirled together. But 'swirled' can mean blended as in a melting pot, so I wanted to clarify that they were *not* blended but had adjacent areas that were different in character.

I am afraid that your using the terms 'swirled slip' and 'glazed swirled colored slip discs' does not paint a clear picture for me, and unfortunately I lack a copy of your book. In pottery 'scroddled' is patterning in the body, whether random or not, while slightly mixing colored slips on the surface is 'marbleizing'. In China in the Tang Dynasty some wonderful pots were made of carefully layered different clays that were then cut, rejoined, cut and rejoined again to produce wonderful mosaic-like patterns that it took a master to retain in making the finished dish or container from this material. In England, similar techniques were used I think in the 18th century to produce flame-like and chevron-like patterns. Both of these effects were within the clay body.

Whereas the marbleized slip surface treatment as a pottery glaze was more like combed feather-patterns on beads: a material applied on the surface, often multi-colored, manipulated only on the surface.

In pottery the difference between body and glaze is much clearer than pattern-forming and decoration techniques in glass. Even in wares that have layers of colored slip, allowed to dry one layer at a time, and then cut through -- cameo-like, or think of Daum Nancy -- there is not any discussion about whether the slip becomes part of the body. It was applied as surface slip and cut through to expose the different color of slip or different color of body, then fired. The essence is the technique, since once fired the whole is supposed to stick together! Yet the slip-glaze composition is different from that of the body, whereas in glass this difference is physically much less except as to color and opacity.

Still there were parallel concerns in each field. Disparate materials had to be compatible in rate of expansion during heating and rate of shrinkage (in pottery) or rate of solidification (glass) during cooling. In marbles one can often see that one of the colors must have been just slightly harder than the other when final rounding was done, so the result was often not seamless.

In beads this disparity, whether due to flux, colorant or opacifier is not such a determinant, since there is less emphasis on absolute regularity. In beads, unlike marbles or ceramics, the slightly 'off' item might be reheated and an adjustment made. A bead can be ground and then fire-polished, whereas no such thing can readily be done with pottery, and such treatment of marbles would be much more costly than to just discard defective items. If of uniform material, discarded marbles could be melted en masse for re-use, but I doubt the flames and corkscrews would be melted down.

I think I am done!

© Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
playing lotto
Post Reply Edit Forum
Posted by: jp Post Reply
02/12/2007, 19:32:49

The most interesting find in Tuscon for me was these banded drawn beads. I had noticed them on the Sick sample card but never saw them on the african trade until I found those on a strand with one of the traders, they were all on the same strand mixed with other common beads. some are rosetta chevrons (pictured on page 66 in volume VII), some gooseberry, some A speo etc...

banded_beads.jpg (94.6 KB)  

© Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
What are digits
Post Reply Edit View All Forum
Posted by: Patrick Post Reply
09/11/2006, 11:33:05

The beads pictured came from the same strand.I remember Jamey saying that these layers are called digits ? What isw the difference between digits & layers ? And do I see two rows of stripes in these beads ? The round blues are five layer beads ?
Thanks, Patrick.

DSC00022-1.jpg (36.0 KB)  BLUEW_STRIPES_GOOSEBERRY.jpg (27.1 KB)  

© Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Search me!
Re: What are digits -- Patrick Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
09/11/2006, 14:25:30

Hi Patrick,

I don't know where you got this idea.

I refer to canes such as these as having "submerged stripes." These are layers with stripe units, that are covered-over by an additional layer of (usually transparent) glass. All of this is in contrast to conventional canes that have superficial stripes that are on the surface of the cane; or star canes that have stripe units inserted between the points of the starry layer (then often covered by a transparent layer).

Canes of the class you are showing often have one or two layers of stripes, and the stripes are usually single round canes that are spaced apart. (In fact, they may be two-layered canes that are white overlaid with a transparent exterior, so that they automatically separate from each other, when placed—so that a transparent separating-cane doesn't have to be used between white canes.) These canes can also be unmolded (like yours), or they might be flower or star canes.

The submerging of the stripes makes the beads visually similar to old-time "gooseberry" beads—that may be the earliest conventional Venetian beads made with submerged stripes.

Anyway, I call these "submerged stripes."


Modified by Beadman at Mon, Sep 11, 2006, 14:26:00

© Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Actual Gooseberry Beads
Re: Search me! -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
09/13/2006, 03:27:08

Hi Patrick,

In the morning, I have to disconnect my computer and take it in for a diagnostic—to see what its problem is. In the meantime, if I don't crash, I'm trying to post something. I have discussed all this a number of times in the past, so I hope those of you who recall will bear with me, for the sake of clarification.

The name "gooseberry" presents us with a very typical problem, that we face time and time again with beads and bead-naming. The subject beads were made for a long period, in various—let's say—"editions." What we might call the "true gooseberry beads" were essentially 17th and 18th C. products, apparently made at Venice and most likely Holland. Later beads of similar production (though not actually "the same") have also been called "gooseberry" beads, and are often also misrepresented as being from the first wave of production—these being 19th and 20th C. beads that were made differently.

I suppose some people might like to characterize these beads as being "true" or "old" or "original" or "authentic"—as opposed to "late" or "later" or "revival" or "pseudo" gooseberry beads. I am inclined to say that only the "original" first-wave beads are true gooseberry beads. And if I had to characterize the others, I would be inclined to say they are "similar to gooseberry beads"—and to list these similarities and differences.

The original gooseberry beads were made from canes of nearly clear colorless glass, that typically may have been grayish, yellowish, or greenish in tone. The canes had submerged thin stripes of white glass, typically eight to twelve of them. The beads made from these canes were produced by the a speo method, and they range in shape from short oblates to spheroids and ovals with some tendency for one or both ends to be slightly pointy. Because of the a speo method of reshaping the cane segment, there is also some tendency for the ends to be "closed." That is, for the pattern to slightly constrict toward the aperture(s). It is THIS effect (combined with the tiny stripes and color) that makes the beads look like little berries.

Later beads were more usually NOT finished a speo, but were finished "a ferrata"—in an iron pan—the ancestor of what eventually became hot-tumbling; or they were actually hot-tumbled. Then also, the canes of the later beads OFTEN feature superficial stripes. Finally, it has come to pass that almost any bead/cane that has multiples of thin white canes has been compared to or called "gooseberry" beads, regardless of the color of the base glass. My very first communication with Joyce (before BC.N existed) was about some bright red cane beads with white stripes, that fit this bill nicely. Some would be inclined to call them "red gooseberry beads"..., but this tends to miss the whole point of the name and the original intent in applying that name to specific beads.

The fallout from all of the above is that the name "gooseberry" has come to be applied to many different beads that are NOT gooseberry beads, or at best might be "late" or "revival" gooseberry beads—but, nevertheless, part of their misidentification will be the proposal that these beads date from the time of the first wave of production instead of when they were actually made. It is a mistake to identify a 19th C. bead as a "17th C. bead." The problem becomes a non-issue as soon as one is willing to call the bead a "late revival edition," or whatever.

Your beads appear to be made from glass that is not colorless/clear, from canes that do not have submerged stripes, and are not finished by the a speo method. So I would say they are NOT "gooseberry beads" and are not from the 17th century.

The photo I have posted here shows an actual group of 17th C. a speo beads, of which some are the classic gooseberry type, and the others are plain striped beads and star beads. These are ALL typical of this time and of Venetian (& Dutch) production.

I hope you appreciate the difference.


HB_blk_red_detail.jpg (50.7 KB)  

© Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Gooseberry Beads from Jamestown
Re: Actual Gooseberry Beads -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
09/13/2006, 03:30:11

I lifted this image from an online site that discusses the excavations at Jamestown, VA. It shows the gooseberry beads recovered there—and presents a nice variety of standard shapes typical of these beads.

See you all in a few days.


jamestown_goose.jpg (65.5 KB)  

© Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Re: Search me!
Re: Search me! -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Patrick Post Reply
09/12/2006, 12:18:49

Hi Jamey,
A few pics of old Venetian GooseBerries from the mid 1700s. Take notice that the submerged stripes on many are either gone all together, just a few left to most still visable.This would have had to come from age & wear over the years. They all came from the same strand."Real GooseBerries".

GOOSES.jpg ( bytes)  

Modified by Patrick at Tue, Sep 12, 2006, 12:19:57

© Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
I'm not so sure
Re: Re: Search me! -- Patrick Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
09/12/2006, 15:21:36

Hi Patrick,

Unfortunately, these beads do not look like they have been finished a speo; and and the canes are not really similar to the canes used for early "gooseberry" beads. Consequently, they would not be early "gooseberry" beads. I suspect these are later, but "early" hot-tumbled beads, that would date to ca. 1817 or later.

I am going to be offline for a couple of days, while my computer is being tuned-up. I'll try to pursue these issues when I return.


© Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Time to make a special gallery of "beads with names"
Post Reply Edit View All Forum
Posted by: Pudgy Post Reply
11/13/2010, 20:34:34

From among the thousands of random photos you've collected already, it shouldn't be too hard to assemble a special gallery of "beads with names". Or, you could start fresh and let forumites contribute pics with names. Watch the action from there as people argue what constitutes such and such named beads. I'll bet the whole gallery won't come up to 200 popular beads with names. Wanna bet? Or will you start throwing all the foreign mishmash? Such a thing might be a useful tool!

© Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
a small list from eBay this morning
Re: Time to make a special gallery of "beads with names" -- Pudgy Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: TASART Post Reply
11/15/2010, 09:33:53

Here is an incomplete list of bead names and descriptions off eBay this morning, this was only the first few pages of "highest priced" under "trade beads" search heading: (sorry for spelling and punctuation!!!)

"Ghana Eyes",Pink Pineapples , FRENCH AMBASSADORS,GHOST Venetian Trade Beads ,Moon Trade Beads Baule FACE Beads, "Clear French Ambassadors" ,BODOM Trade Bead,"Women's Chevrons" ,LEWIS AND CLARK Trade Bead, Cornaline d'Aleppo Trade Bead, KINGS, Akoso/Bodom Trade Bead , Yellow ZEN Disk Trade Bead, Venetian Tire Trade Bead,, BLUE NUEVA CADIZ Trade Bead ,Antique German Marble Bead, Relatives of Ghost Beads,Bowtie Venetian Trade Bead,Blue Egg Trade Bead,Venetian Ribbon Tabular Trade Bead,ZEN Trade Bead, DUTCH SPEO,Wedding Cake Venetian Trade Bead,"African Amber",Double Row Dotted RED Skunks Venetian Trade Beads,Antique Hudson Bay trade beads, Chief beads, Bear tooth,Tabular Trade Beads, RARE Red Feathers,Dutch Dogon Wound Beads,TRADE BEADS BOHEMIAN RUSSIAN BLUES,RARE DOUGHNUT SHAPED AFRICAN AKOSSU ,VERY RARE Venetian Eye KING Trade Bead,Venetian Trade Beads Lattichine Africa,Amberoid resin and Tuareg brass bds ,strand huge koloba faceted venetian beads african trade, Bear Claw Millefiori Venetian Trade Bead, Venetian Yellow Flowers with Battered Ghosts Trade Bead, Vintage Coyote Tooth Hudson Bay Trade Bead, Old PEUL Idar-Oberstein Agate & Trade Bead, Black Fancy Venetian Barrel Trade Beads Candy Cane, Antique African Trade Beads - End of Day, Fancy Old White Skunks Pink White & Green Venetian, "Naga Land" Pink Coral Colored Glass, "CLEAR RUSSIAN BICONE", "AQUA RUSSIAN BICONE" Faceted, Yellow Hebrew Beads, Red & Green Candy Stripe Venetian African Trade, "German Donuts" Dutch Blue Glass African Trade Bead, Vintage Nigerian Indian Agate African Beads, Translucent Blue Ancient Glass Djenne Mali African
, venetian blue gooseberry dogbone african trade beads, VENETIAN 1000 eye Skunks Mint, Black King Venetian Trade Bead, Baby King Venetian Trade Beads, Venetian RIBBON Trade Beads, American Flag Chevron Venetian Trade Beads, CHECKERBOARD MOSAIC ISLAMIC, Yellow Pineapples Venetian Trade Bead, Trade Beads Very Rare Venetian Fish, INDO-PACIFIC TRADE GLASS BEAD, Blue Trade Beads Dogon Seed Bead Rings, Hebron Trade Bead, red skunk venetian white heart beads african trade Hammerheads, Squiggle Designs, RARE, Venetian Trade Bead, Old PEUL Madougou Amber and Trade Bead, Dumbbell Melons Venetian Trade Beads RARE,
, OLD LARGE AQUA DUTCH DOGON CHIEF TRADE BEADS, Mock Carnelian Faceted Glass Trade Bead, rare venetian bicone bumpy beads, Greenheart Venetian Trade Bead, Baby Moon Trade Bead, Bear Claw Millefiori Venetian Trade Bead,
Green Melon Cylinder Millefiori Venetian Trade, Venetian Fancies Double X Fr.Ambassador Trade Beads, OLD RED VENETIAN FEATHER TRADE BEAD, Red Skunk and Feather Venetian Trade Bead, Trade Beads Antique Pulled Feather Skunk , venetian gift box fancy african trade bead, VENETIAN RATTLE SNAKE WOUND GLASS~TRADE BEADS, VENETIAN GOOSEBERRY BEAD, White Skunks and Yellow Zen Venetian Trade Beads, VENETIAN GREEN FLOWER BEADS, Unique Trade Bead Oxen Bone, Rattlesnake Venetian Trade Bead, rare old akoso zagba beads ghana african trade, venetian millefiori rooster african trade beads, venetian hot pinched dog tooth african trade beads, Blue Vaseline Trade Beads, Bumble Bee Venetian Trade Beads, LARGE BROWN WATER MELON BEADS, Tabular Crumb 'Trade Beads', French Cross Variations, Swirl Venetian Trade Bead, Venetian Tire Variants Trade Bead, HUBBELL TRADE BEAD, faceted russian blues, venetian ayja african trade bead,

© Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
I sifted your's another list...
Re: a small list from eBay this morning -- TASART Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Pudgy Post Reply
11/15/2010, 16:07:19

How many of these 89 "names" refer to specific beads? Many must fail because they're bead types, not bead names. This list is mainly eBay aficionado garbage hype resulting from the 55-character limit. It's better to think up a name, put a picture beside it, and make a serious "beads with names" gallery. Anyone who comes up with 200 specific named beads wins a prize.

1000 eye skunk
African amber
amberoid resin
American flag
Baule face
bear claw
bear tooth
blue egg
bumpy bicone
candy cane
candy stripe
cornaline d'Aleppo
coyote tooth Hudson Bay
dog tooth
Dogon Seed Bead Rings
Double Row Dotted RED Skunks
Double X Fr.Ambassadors
Dutch Dogon
Dutch Speo
eye king
French ambassador
French cross
German donuts
German marble
Ghana eye
gift box
gooseberry dogbone
green flower
green melon
H. Dogon chief
Hudson Bay
Idar-Oberstein agate
koloba faceted
Lewis & Clark
mock carnelian
Nagaland pink coral
Nigerian Indian agate
Nueva Cadiz
oxen bone
Peul Madougou amber
pink pineapple
pulled feather skunk
realatives of ghost
red skunk white heart
ribbon tabular
tabular crumb
tire variant
tire variant
Tuareg brass
wedding cake
women's chevron
Zen disk

Modified by Pudgy at Mon, Nov 15, 2010, 16:09:32

© Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Sunday Show & Tell ... My Only Venetian "Squashed" Bead.
Post Reply Edit View All Forum
Posted by: Dog Bone Crazy Post Reply
10/24/2010, 08:07:19

Hello All.

I was digging in the "Galleries" and found this photo of my only Venetian tabular bead from the early 1900's. I do not really care for "tabular" beads because I always think Aw...why did they ruin that beautiful bead by "squashing" it. This bead looked at me and said I see you!" So I took it home gave it bath and looked at it and said I see you too! 25mm X 9mm with an irregular 3mm hole.

Thomas Mercer
Dog Bone Crazy

2_ICU.jpg (147.6 KB)  

© Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Re: Sunday Show & Tell ..My mini Chevrons
Re: Sunday Show & Tell ... My Only Venetian "Squashed" Bead. -- Dog Bone Crazy Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: globalbeads Post Reply
10/24/2010, 17:26:46

A strand I've had forever waiting to become a fab necklace!
max diameter is 6mm

chev-mix-neck.gif (157.0 KB)  chev-mix-neck-cu.gif (166.8 KB)  
Kathleen, Global Beads, Inc

© Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Re: Re: Sunday Show & Tell ..My mini Chevrons -- globalbeads Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: beadiste Post Reply
10/24/2010, 20:49:55

I like the "gooseberry" filler beads - great choice!

© Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Some IDs and another Question
Post Reply Edit Forum
Posted by: wantke uwe Post Reply
01/30/2007, 05:47:51

All shown glass beads came from mixed strands of usually Venetian Millefiori and Fancy beads from theAfrican trade, bought in South-Morocco. Sometimes I find single beads on those strands, that are or could be from the islamic period and more often Bohemian beads.

The first picture shows very small beads, and the question is, if they are Venetian, or if not, where they come from and from which time...

Same question for the two beads with floral design from the second picture...

The third picture shows two striped beads and I would guess, that the light blue is Venetian, from the „Gooseberry family“, but the second darker one...?? Both have very small „opening“, 1mm around...

3small.jpg (28.0 KB)  florals.jpg ( bytes)  2_blues.jpg (42.5 KB)  

© Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Small 7-Layer Chevrons...Variations of blue and stars....
Post Reply Edit View All Forum
Posted by: wantke uwe Post Reply
08/03/2006, 05:32:33

Hi again...
I thought it would be nice, to see my last findings of 7-Layers all together in comparsion with backlight, to view the various colors of the first and third translucent layer. So here is the result....I am sorry about the bad quality of some pictures, I just ordered a new camera with 1cm macro, this will work better for small objects, but I couldn´t wait....

I have had my problems with that backlight and so the colors of the first of each row is more light blue, not clear...(I would pull off my hat, if I had one, for all those, who show us all these beautiful and high-quality pictures here!!!)...there is some pink plasticine inside the perforations to keep the light out...

The third one top row is in an unusual shape, I would say „cornerless cube“, and I wonder, if it is like that from the beginning or if it has been done later from a rectangular shape...??

Perforations from <1mm to 4.5mm...two with lightly twisted stripes, some with pointed stars, others with rounded stars, and no stars at the 6th layer from the last one in second row....
Hope, you will enjoy....

chevs1xx.jpg (114.2 KB)  

© Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
...and two questions....
Re: Small 7-Layer Chevrons...Variations of blue and stars.... -- wantke uwe Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: wantke uwe Post Reply
08/03/2006, 05:43:21

...when I found this blue one from the first picture, it looked more like an old cannonball, with all that dirt. After cleaning with a toothbrush the color came out...any more suggestion than „...antique European...“(if it is so....)...?? 14x16mm
....and the other, 12x12mm, with just 1mm perforation...age...?....would Bohemia/Czech be a guess...?

inblau.jpg (36.9 KB)  blau.jpg (29.5 KB)  

© Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Blue Beads
Re: ...and two questions.... -- wantke uwe Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
08/03/2006, 06:03:32

Hi Uwe,

The spheroidal blue bead looks like a more unusual version of the typical cobalt-blue beads that come out of old Niger River habitation sites (like Jenne, Goa, and Timbuktu), and were most likely derived from the Middle East (or Egypt), in Islamic times.

The teal colored gooseberry-like bead is most likely Venetian. These were made until fairly recent times, into the 20th century. Modern gooseberry-like beads are now hot-tumbled, and are somewhat different in appearance from older beads.


© Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Six or Five Layer ?
Post Reply Edit View All Forum
Posted by: Patrick Pine Post Reply
01/27/2009, 07:46:12

This bead is either a five or a six layer drawn star chevron.Layers, White,clear,white,red,white then clear outer layer.The first inner layer of white is so very thin & stops just short of the layer comming together the whole way around the inside of the bead. Also, the ends are very smooth like a hot tumbled bead ?

Thanks, Patrick

BF_A_1.jpg (42.5 KB)  BF_A_2.jpg (38.9 KB)  

© Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Re: Five Layers ?
Re: Six or Five Layer ? -- Patrick Pine Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
01/27/2009, 09:08:06

Hello Patrick,

It is usually controversial to include a partial layer in the layer count, because there is always a reasonable possibility this may be some contamination or other accidental feature. If you discern that the perforation is out-of-round, and that the unrounded part would have included the rest of the base layer, you could make a theoretical argument that it was formerly complete, but suffers from perforation abrasion and missing structure.

We do the same thing, basically, when we say that missing external layers were originally there, but have been ground-away—based on the structure of the glass and knowledge of conventional editions (that the bead otherwise resembles).

The uncontroversial interpretation is that this is a five-layer bead with a white partial base layer that may have been unintentional.

Drawn beads—particularly larger ones—were not "tumbled" until the 20th C. Prior to that time, the en masse technique was called the "a ferrazza" (or "stirred in a pan") method. This is covered in my article on Venetian beadmaking that appeared in BEADS three issues ago.


© Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Re: Re: Five Layers ?
Re: Re: Five Layers ? -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Patrick Pine Post Reply
01/27/2009, 10:15:28

Thanks Jamey.Is this bead hot tumbled or done via the pan method ? Or can't you tell from my pictures ? Most drawn beads that I have come across have rough sharp ends.This tends to leave many w chipped ends from age & wear.These ends are rounded smooth.I have newer Venetian gooseberry beads that are drawn beads. One strand has the smooth rounded ends & the beads from strand 2 have the straight sharper ends.This leaves me to conclude something extra was done to get the smoothed ends.(the five layer & the gooseberry bds).


© Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Post Reply Edit View All Forum
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
08/26/2009, 15:53:55

The following is more information and thoughts on glass-beadmaking and bead distribution in and from Holland.

First, a quick overview. Glass-beadmaking at Holland is thought to have been initiated by about 1590. So, close to the beginning of the 17th century. Prior to that time, the Dutch had been receiving Venetian (and perhaps other) beads, and had transported them via shipping, to the areas where they had established commercial relations (no doubt continuing to expand the areas of these contacts and exchanges). In the 17th C., it is strongly established that Western Europeans wanted to compete with Venice in the manufacture of glass beads for export. In addition to Holland, Flanders and England established glasshouses for beadmaking.

The documents that still exist are not always entirely clear. Partly because the language used does not necessarily easily translate into terms we can identify and understand. (Of course, we STILL have these problems, a lot, even today.) But certain actions indicate the following interpretation of history. Then I will add my thoughts about the ramifications of past expositions on Dutch glass-beadmaking, to clarify my position.

It seems very likely that the first beads the Dutch made were probably simple furnace-wound beads. Beads that do not require a complicated skill-set, but might be made almost anywhere (presuming that the requisites of glassmaking and working are understood). We can suppose that these beads were not exciting, and not considered very desirable—because after a very short time, it is recorded, the Dutch brought in a Venetian Master, to make and teach the making of Venetian-style beads. These were DRAWN beads, made from simple or complex preformed canes, finished various ways. Consequently, the Dutch glassworkers reached critical mass very quickly, and from a humble beginning were soon equipped to make beads that competed with Venetian products—so much so that hardly anyone can distinguish one from the other, among beads of that time (based upon my personal experience of viewing these beads in Holland, from factory sites and refuse). The Dutch made these fancy drawn beads, including rosetta beads (usually finished a-speo) for about 100 years.

In the 18th C., it seems the fashion for making drawn beads changed, and the Dutch glassworks took a step backwards. They returned to making large furnace-wound beads, in a limited color palate—this being blue (of various tones), white (including girasol dichroic glass), brown (the color of root beer or coffee, verging on orange and yellow—colors that might be considered to imitate amber), and occasionally violet. These large crude beads were made from glasses that were not well-formulated, suggesting that this may have been an entirely new industry, not connected to the previous Venetian-trained beadmaking. The result of using this glass is that the beads, when they are recovered in recent times, are more radically decayed than the glass of the previous beads. This falsely suggests these beads are OLDER than 17th C. beads. And, in fact, when they are recovered in certain parts of the world, they are routinely mistaken for “ancient” beads. (I have written about this phenomenon a number of times.)

W.G.N. van der Sleen was a Dutch chemist, who had a great interest in glass-beadmaking in his homeland. In the late 1960s, he composed a book, A Handbook on Beads, that attempted to describe the scope of Dutch beadmaking, and also to talk about beads world-wide. He used Horace Beck’s earlier work (from the 1920s and ‘30s) as a stepping stone, going so far as to use some of Beck’s illustrations and terminology. In the 1970s, van der Sleen’s book became avidly used by many bead-sellers and collectors here in the US, when a pirated edition was published and distributed out of Pennsylvania. A thorough bead historian, such as myself, has read both of the European editions, and the American edition. You have to—because the American edition has different page numbers—and in many places the Index doesn’t make any sense—it being impossible to find the information on the pages cited. Van der Sleen’s book is an earnest attempt at writing something on beads for the next generation after Beck. However, like Beck’s work, it is not faultless, and is severely in need of revision. I realized this the first time I read his book in about 1973 or ’74.

One of the main problems with vdS’s account of Dutch beadmaking is that he thought the large furnace-wound beads were logically earlier than the drawn beads. While it is probably abstractly true that this may have occurred, the early wound beads have not been identified. The large crude wound furnace beads, that are typically considered to be Dutch (though the evidence remains merely scanty and suggestive!), are from AFTER the time of drawn beadmaking at Holland—as I have suggested above—and are most likely early 18th C. beads.

Added to this, once vdS’s book became popular, it engendered MANY instances of mistaken identity, based on misinterpretations of what vdS said. Quite a few Venetian rosetta and chevron beads have been sold as “Dutch.” Most “gooseberry” beads are not that, but represent different later editions of somewhat similar appearance. He also promoted the mistaken idea that small red-over-green drawn beads (“galet rouge” or “green-heart” beads) had been previously made in India—even though his international collection does not include any such beads (!). And many plain wound beads are thought to be considerably earlier than they are, and to be “Dutch” when they are not. I wish I had a bead for every time I have had to say or write “if you’ve seen one wound bead, you’ve seen them all”—by which I mean that plain simple wound beads are often difficult to distinguish from one another. Even now, we often cannot distinguish between certain Chinese beads and similar-looking European beads (the so-called “padre” beads and “early blues,” respectively from the Southwest and Northwest, from less than 200 years ago).

Having lobbied to take more care in identifying beads, and to not presuming a “Dutch” origin where its not warranted (since 1974), I eventually made it to Holland (1991 and 1992), where I looked at locally-recovered beads, for the specific determination of whether it were visually possible to distinguish between Venetian and Dutch specimens (it was not!), and (in 2004) the later larger wound beads (the problem being that 19th and 20th C. German beads are routinely thought to be “17th C. Dutch beads”). I have determined that none of the beads recovered in Holland look like the Central European beads that I believe are mostly German and postdate Holland’s beadmaking. These are visually distinct from the Dutch beads. But there are SO MANY plain wound beads..., and not all questions of technique and origin are answered, yet.

I will leave this discussion with a look at a section of Lois Dubin’s Bead Chart, showing the beads she identified as coming from Holland in the 17th century. And I’ll comment upon this in the next installment. The link posted here refers back to a discussion of a few days ago, in which I show a selection of the larger furnace-wound beads recovered in Holland.

So, more later.


timeline_dutchbds.jpg (54.3 KB)  

Related link:
Modified by Beadman at Thu, Aug 27, 2009, 03:19:31

© Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Re: MORE ON DUTCH GLASS BEADS -- Beadman Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
08/27/2009, 04:18:04

We left off with the scan from The Bead Chart, found in the first edition of The History of Beads, showing the area encompassing the 17th century, and the region of Holland. The author (my friend, Lois Dubin) displays specimens 99 through 111, presenting thirty-one beads that are purported to be Dutch. But are they all Dutch, and are they all from the 17th C.? In fact, no. Some mistaken identity has occurred, in terms of origin and time of origin. Let’s go through them, and let’s refer to the altered scan seen below.

The specimens that are most likely Dutch are: 99a (possibly) & b, 100a b & c, possibly 102a b c & d, 106, 107a and perhaps b, and perhaps 111. In the new scan, these beads remain uncircled.

Beads 101a b & c, and 102e & f, are large plain furnace-wound beads that mostly date from the 19th or early 20th Cs, and were made elsewhere in Europe. Specimen 107c is supposed to represent an early “gooseberry” bead, but is a more-modern Venetian bead, and composed from the wrong glass colors. Number 109 is the only true chevron bead present (except possibly 105a); and as such must be a Venetian bead, and is most likely from later. 110a & b are 19th or early 20th C. beads from Venice. One or both of these is/are trailed lampworked wound glass—and as there is no evidence that Holland made such beads, and since the types from Venice are later, these do not belong here. Note that all of these beads are circled in red—to indicate they have a mistaken placement in the Chart.

Beads 103a & b, 104, 105a b & c, and 108a b & c, are all rosetta beads finished a-speo. As such, it would be difficult to say with any certainty whether they are Venetian or Dutch—as they might be either. I am not confident that all of these beads are from the 17th C., and in fact suspect some must be or may be later. All of these beads are circled in orange, to indicate their uncertain status.

Why must the chevron bead be Venetian, if the Dutch made rosetta canes? This is a very good question. And many people will ask it because over the past thirty-five years quite a few conventional blue chevron beads have been misidentified and sold as “old Dutch trade beads”—and this still happens. Initially, in my experience, the most likely candidates for this story were a group of 4-layer (white, red, white, blue) beads that remain almost cylindrical, but have some grinding of the edges to reveal the patterned interior. (I will show these beads.) Later, almost any conventional chevron bead, whether an early 7-layer bead or a late 4-layer or 6-layer bead, might be so-identified by some sellers and collectors. The late beads are too late to be Dutch—and so must be Venetian. The early beads are essentially too early, dating from the late 15th and 16th Cs—before the Dutch were involved in drawn beadmaking.

But, how can we know that NO similar beads were made in Holland, that remain unidentified? The answer is pretty simple. On one of my early trips to Amsterdam, in consulting with the staff who guided me through the beads that had been recovered, he showed me a conventional and typical early 7-layer bead. He said, in no uncertain terms, this was the ONLY such bead recovered in Holland—and that they were comfortable that it was an imported bead. In 2004, when I met a local bead store owner, he also showed me a 7-layer bead, found in Holland (it was said), that he believed indicated that such beads were made there. Unfortunately, this is wishful thinking. His bead would be the second such bead that I know of. Rather than saying the recovery of two beads indicates that such beads were made in Holland, let’s turn it around. If the Dutch made conventional chevron beads, where are the thousands of beads, and wasters from beadmaking, that we should expect to find, recovered from factory and refuse sites? That there aren’t any is pretty condemning of such ideas. Plus, let’s say there were some reasonable number of such beads in Holland. Even then, since Amsterdam was an entrepot, we should expect there to be some earlier Venetian beads—lost in canals, or from the inventories of trade businesses who imported beads from Venice. The presence of such beads in no way would indicate they were MADE locally.

The closest thing to chevron beads, made in Holland, were heat-rounded a-speo rosetta beads (many of which are white with colored stripes—as we can see in Lois’ illustration). It’s also possible and even likely that some beads were essentially cut cylinders (their ends being tidied-up), or cut square cylinders (some twisted). For sure, star canes, in conventional color combinations, featuring a blue exterior and red and white interior, are known from glasswoking refuse. But not cut chevron beads.

Returning to Lois Dubin’s Bead Chart—let us remember that her book was composed twenty-two years ago. We ought to expect there would be a need for revisions and additions after such a long time. Although I was a consultant, and warned that some of the “Dutch” beads were not that, they were published as we see here. Nevertheless, the new edition of The History of Beads, that will be released in October, will present Dutch beads more accurately than previous attempts.


timeline_isolated.jpg (66.1 KB)  

© Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
How many layers ?
Post Reply Edit View All Forum
Posted by: Patrick Post Reply
12/04/2005, 11:13:42

I think the white layers are called digits.But 5 layers ? Inside, white,clear,white,blue ?

A_7_.jpg (80.3 KB)  

© Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Seven Layers
Re: How many layers ? -- Patrick Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Beadman Post Reply
12/04/2005, 20:07:29

These appear to have five layers. However, the cane has two sets of submerged white stripes. That means each strip round is covered by a thin layer of the external bluish glass—providing two extra layers for a total of seven.

Gooseberry beads also have submerged external stripes, but only one round, and the glass (as mentioned in a reply already) is colorless/clear, sometimes tending toward greenish or yellowish. ALSO, the true early "gooseberry" beads were made (finished) by the a speo method—though later editions were/are not. The latter are either straight cylinders (cane pieces with trimmed ends, possibly slightly tumbled) or they are hot-tumbled (like big seedbeads). The late versions also have superficial stripes. These characteristics serve to distinguish one group from the other. Nevertheless, the late beads are often sold as the early specimens (online and elsewise).

I would not call the present beads "blue gooseberries" or the like. I showed them in my article on rosetta beads (Part IV) in 1983/84.


© Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Gooseberrys question
Post Reply Edit View All Forum
Posted by: dannoh40 Post Reply
03/24/2010, 10:00:37

Here are some of what I call gooseberries...
However,I've noticed that some have stripping imbedded in the glass and some are on the surface.
So my qestion is.....which one is the real deal?
Are the ones with the strips on the outside "INDIAN"? or chinisse? or what.

Gooseberry_ID.jpg (131.6 KB)  

© Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Re: Gooseberrys question
Re: Gooseberrys question -- dannoh40 Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Carole Morris Post Reply
03/24/2010, 13:53:32

The slightly pinker ones Stefany mentions are indeed 20th century Venetian - probably Costantini made. Stef and I visited Costantini in 1991, nearly 20 years ago, and they still had some of these beads left made from older canes. I must have bought 10kg at the time, and still have some.


© Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Gonna get my kiffas on and strut my stuff at the Rocky Mountain Bead Bazaar!
Post Reply Edit View All Forum
Posted by: Carole Post Reply
04/26/2009, 12:49:28

It's a beautiful spring day here in Denver! I am heading up to the bead bazaar. Recently had my kiffas thoughtfully restrung by Bryson, Jacob March's assistant at Nomad Design in Boulder. I heard that Anna Holland saw it and exclaimed "She's got kiffa beads that I don't have!" Anna may end up with this necklace, we'll see. I posted the world's smallest kiffa awhile back and now that I found out it is newer reproduction, I am concerned about other beads on this necklace- especially the green striped one similar to the one pictured in the middle. My small kiffa came off this necklace. I got it after the Santa Fe Bead Symposium years ago. I decided to take money out of savings to buy a kiffa necklace but there weren't any kiffas to be had. Some bead dealers were getting some in and said they would see me in Denver. When I got back to Denver, they were waiting outside my house with 6 kiffa necklaces in hand! I'll let you know if I see anything interesting!


© Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users
Rocky Mt Bead Bazaar & Bead Renaissance Bead I.D. please
Re: Gonna get my kiffas on and strut my stuff at the Rocky Mountain Bead Bazaar! -- Carole Post Reply Edit Forum Where am I?
Posted by: Carole Post Reply
04/26/2009, 17:00:04

Junior reporter Carole reporting back from the RMBB...there was only one African bead trader there and he was loving it-Haje from Seattle. His prices varied wildly per customer but he intrigued me into buying a strand of small russian blues for $45, old gooseberry like tiny seed beads for $5 each strand and other small purchases. He sold me a long "wedding" beads necklace for $55 but refused to budge for another woman for less than $75. It was fun hanging out there for awhile.

The Bead Renaissance in September is a much larger event; in conjunction with the second largest Gem and Mineral show in the United States. He will be back then after going to Africa. At the Bead Renaissance Fair there are a few more sellers of old beads. I ran into an apparently relatively new African bead dealer and felt compelled the buy my first necklace in many years. I know, I know I am slipping into addiction AGAIN! I paid $90 for the necklace, pictured below and it included the single Kiffa bead I included with my Kiffa necklace. Should one capitalize Kiffa? I think so.


© Copyright 2019
All rights reserved by Bead Collector Network and its users